There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
Are you trying to tell me that a Dhole pack wouldn't run away from a herd of gaurs charging them? That doesn't sound realistic, even lion prides run when here's of buffalo charge at them.
The following 1 user Likes smedz's post:1 user Likes smedz's post • Sanju
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
Are you trying to tell me that a Dhole pack wouldn't run away from a herd of gaurs charging them? That doesn't sound realistic, even lion prides run when here's of buffalo charge at them.
Well, I think, that there is some reason why gaurs were so passive. And for a pack of dholes it is much easier to dodge gaurs than a tiger. So actually yes, it might be just as you say. Dholes would just dodge and continue and I think, that it is the case. Tiger flees, dholes don´t. That is one logical explanation to what can be seen there.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Rishi
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
Are you trying to tell me that a Dhole pack wouldn't run away from a herd of gaurs charging them? That doesn't sound realistic, even lion prides run when here's of buffalo charge at them.
Well, I think, that there is some reason why gaurs were so passive. And for a pack of dholes it is much easier to dodge gaurs than a tiger. So actually yes, it might be just as you say. Dholes would just dodge and continue and I think, that it is the case. Tiger flees, dholes don´t. That is one logical explanation to what can be seen there.
So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
The following 1 user Likes smedz's post:1 user Likes smedz's post • Sanju
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
Are you trying to tell me that a Dhole pack wouldn't run away from a herd of gaurs charging them? That doesn't sound realistic, even lion prides run when here's of buffalo charge at them.
Well, I think, that there is some reason why gaurs were so passive. And for a pack of dholes it is much easier to dodge gaurs than a tiger. So actually yes, it might be just as you say. Dholes would just dodge and continue and I think, that it is the case. Tiger flees, dholes don´t. That is one logical explanation to what can be seen there.
So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
That big size difference means also huge agility difference. They only need to injure calf enough to immobilize it and then wait while harassing. Look at how dholes hunt, there are videos in youtube.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Sanju
02-01-2019, 12:43 AM( This post was last modified: 02-01-2019, 12:44 AM by Shadow )
(02-01-2019, 12:34 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-01-2019, 12:24 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-01-2019, 12:12 AM)smedz Wrote:
(01-31-2019, 11:10 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-31-2019, 10:50 PM)smedz Wrote:
(01-31-2019, 10:40 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts.
There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think.
Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.
So your logic is, that gaurs help against animal, which is more dangerous, but not against harmless? :) Well, I think, that they don´t help against big pack, because it is useless, that calf is lost at the moment when dhole pack targets it. Tiger could be charged and forced to flee, dholes just dodge attacks and immobilize calf.
Are you trying to tell me that a Dhole pack wouldn't run away from a herd of gaurs charging them? That doesn't sound realistic, even lion prides run when here's of buffalo charge at them.
Well, I think, that there is some reason why gaurs were so passive. And for a pack of dholes it is much easier to dodge gaurs than a tiger. So actually yes, it might be just as you say. Dholes would just dodge and continue and I think, that it is the case. Tiger flees, dholes don´t. That is one logical explanation to what can be seen there.
So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
This footage, look from 6:30 forward if not interested to look all, at 6:38 you can see rest of gaurs. You tell me what that herd of gaurs is doing there just standing and not helping. Dholes have a lot of benefits even though individuals are small. There is a reason for it, that they succeed in hunting more often than big cats.
(02-01-2019, 12:39 AM)Shadow Wrote: That big size difference means also huge agility difference. They only need to injure calf enough to immobilize it and then wait while harassing. Look at how dholes hunt, there are videos in youtube.
(02-01-2019, 12:34 AM)smedz Wrote: So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
Both of you... Keep the hypothetical speculations based on nothing to a minimum, or stop trying to convince each other.
Conversations like this go nowhere & end up lowering quality.
There are videos/photos of such interactions earlier in the very thread, with elephants etc. Refer to them, or find & bring in better info if you can.
(02-01-2019, 12:39 AM)Shadow Wrote: That big size difference means also huge agility difference. They only need to injure calf enough to immobilize it and then wait while harassing. Look at how dholes hunt, there are videos in youtube.
(02-01-2019, 12:34 AM)smedz Wrote: So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
Both of you... Keep the hypothetical speculations based on nothing to a minimum, or stop trying to convince each other.
Conversations like this go nowhere & end up lowering quality.
There are videos/photos of such interactions earlier in the very thread, with elephants etc. Refer to them, or find & bring in better info if you can.
Heh, I was teasing a little bit to see what kind of arguments come up These debates can be time to time somewhat amusing. Anyway what comes to prey animal behavior with different predators it is actually very interesting thing to observe and discuss. But people really have to notice, that there is not a single predator, which is best in everything. For instance when looking at tiger, leopard and dhole, tiger is as individual of course strongest one. But that doesn´t mean, that it would be most feared what comes to prey animals, dholes are way more efficient hunters and that can "earn" them more fear from prey animals. Leopard then again has some other strong things, for sure monkeys "laugh" to dholes and tigers, but when leopard approaches.... It is just as it is in wildlife, there is no animal, which would be best in everything :)
(02-01-2019, 08:01 AM)Shadow Wrote: Heh, I was teasing a little bit to see what kind of arguments come up These debates can be time to time somewhat amusing.
Make sure to not do it again soon.
The following 1 user Likes Rishi's post:1 user Likes Rishi's post • Suhail
(02-01-2019, 08:01 AM)Shadow Wrote: Heh, I was teasing a little bit to see what kind of arguments come up These debates can be time to time somewhat amusing.
Make sure to not do it again soon.
Well, I write about animals only things, which I feel ready to back up with some reasoning. But of course some discussions can be kept shorter, that is true :)
(02-01-2019, 12:39 AM)Shadow Wrote: That big size difference means also huge agility difference. They only need to injure calf enough to immobilize it and then wait while harassing. Look at how dholes hunt, there are videos in youtube.
(02-01-2019, 12:34 AM)smedz Wrote: So your're saying these 33-44 lb canids are just not going to run off when a herd of wild cattle that can weigh hundreds of pounds more comes charging in. There are literally more than enough gaurs in that herd to have kept the Dholes at bay, so I still don't see the realism in that reasoning.
Both of you... Keep the hypothetical speculations based on nothing to a minimum, or stop trying to convince each other.
Conversations like this go nowhere & end up lowering quality.
There are videos/photos of such interactions earlier in the very thread, with elephants etc. Refer to them, or find & bring in better info if you can.
Heh, I was teasing a little bit to see what kind of arguments come up These debates can be time to time somewhat amusing. Anyway what comes to prey animal behavior with different predators it is actually very interesting thing to observe and discuss. But people really have to notice, that there is not a single predator, which is best in everything. For instance when looking at tiger, leopard and dhole, tiger is as individual of course strongest one. But that doesn´t mean, that it would be most feared what comes to prey animals, dholes are way more efficient hunters and that can "earn" them more fear from prey animals. Leopard then again has some other strong things, for sure monkeys "laugh" to dholes and tigers, but when leopard approaches.... It is just as it is in wildlife, there is no animal, which would be best in everything :)
Here is one case about dholes and tigers, from the book Wild Cats of the World, not sure if already mentined. Book is from Mel and Fiona Sunquist and original source seems to be W. Connell. One piece in this dhole tiger puzzle. Maybe one day all sources so far should be gathered to one posting to see how it looks like.
02-03-2019, 05:01 AM( This post was last modified: 02-03-2019, 12:56 PM by Rishi )
So out of 22 dogs, 12 were killed and even more were seriously injured?
Didn't seem very believable that the entire pack would basically go on a suicide mission vs a tiger like that...
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
These debates can be time to time somewhat amusing. Anyway what comes to prey animal behavior with different predators it is actually very interesting thing to observe and discuss. But people really have to notice, that there is not a single predator, which is best in everything. For instance when looking at tiger, leopard and dhole, tiger is as individual of course strongest one. But that doesn´t mean, that it would be most feared what comes to prey animals, dholes are way more efficient hunters and that can "earn" them more fear from prey animals. Leopard then again has some other strong things, for sure monkeys "laugh" to dholes and tigers, but when leopard approaches.... It is just as it is in wildlife, there is no animal, which would be best in everything :)
