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Shadow · 01-23-2019, 11:26 PM

(01-23-2019, 11:21 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:09 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:00 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 10:27 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one example, cornered leopard with some advantage same time from place where it is limiting possibilities for these lionesses. Surprise element long gone for some reason.

But imagine there only one determined lioness or tigress, which would attack furiously against all the odds in that situation. There would be a total mess with eight paws with sharp claws etc. and no-one could be sure about the outcome. This is why I am not so surprised if there are rare cases, where tiger is killed by a leopard or both animals dead. It would be nice to get more information though, more photos of injuries etc. I can understand if being cautious, when something rare seems to happen, but rare isn´t same as impossible.

If an adult healthy lioness or tigress went all in to kill a leopard they would kill the leopard, and leave with only some bad cuts. The tigress killed by the leopard was still young and small, I have seen 4 lionesses attack 1 lioness with intention to kill and the lioness survives, and a dosin hyenas attacking a lone lioness, but she still survive, one leopard imo dosen’t have enough power to kill a lioness or a tigress before him himself would be dead. Cats can take a beating, and are durable as hell, but a lioness or tigress would snap the neck or back of a leopard quickly because of their superior size.

Video which shows the tremendous durability of a lioness, she survives this attack. Imo there isn’t a chance a lone leopard could kill a healthy adult one of these or a evenly matched tigress.

Young and very old lionesses/tigresses is another story.

I am not as confident as you are with outcome. I mean, if we have 10 cases, could be easily 10/10. But if 100, I would be surprised if no dead tigers too. But these are things, which can be seen in somewhat different ways and maybe no point to argue about small things, when overall opinion is quite same. So little things can change whole situation as some examples from zoos prove. I mean sometimes one lucky paw swipe can kill an animal and sometimes fight and struggle can go on long times and no dead animals there.

So when you say maybe impossible, I say not likely, but in rare occasions possible :)
Ofc there can be a freak accident, like a deep cut that makes the lioness/tigress to bleed to death, but that would be very difficult.
Imo they are just a little to big and powerful size matters in nature especially if it’s very similar buildt animals like three cat species.

Yes, when size different is big like between lions and tigers compared to leopards, it is clear that leopard is not with advantage.

Shadow · 01-23-2019, 11:31 PM

(01-23-2019, 11:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:09 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:00 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 10:27 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one example, cornered leopard with some advantage same time from place where it is limiting possibilities for these lionesses. Surprise element long gone for some reason.

But imagine there only one determined lioness or tigress, which would attack furiously against all the odds in that situation. There would be a total mess with eight paws with sharp claws etc. and no-one could be sure about the outcome. This is why I am not so surprised if there are rare cases, where tiger is killed by a leopard or both animals dead. It would be nice to get more information though, more photos of injuries etc. I can understand if being cautious, when something rare seems to happen, but rare isn´t same as impossible.

If an adult healthy lioness or tigress went all in to kill a leopard they would kill the leopard, and leave with only some bad cuts. The tigress killed by the leopard was still young and small, I have seen 4 lionesses attack 1 lioness with intention to kill and the lioness survives, and a dosin hyenas attacking a lone lioness, but she still survive, one leopard imo dosen’t have enough power to kill a lioness or a tigress before him himself would be dead. Cats can take a beating, and are durable as hell, but a lioness or tigress would snap the neck or back of a leopard quickly because of their superior size.

Video which shows the tremendous durability of a lioness, she survives this attack. Imo there isn’t a chance a lone leopard could kill a healthy adult one of these or a evenly matched tigress.

Young and very old lionesses/tigresses is another story.

I am not as confident as you are with outcome. I mean, if we have 10 cases, could be easily 10/10. But if 100, I would be surprised if no dead tigers too. But these are things, which can be seen in somewhat different ways and maybe no point to argue about small things, when overall opinion is quite same. So little things can change whole situation as some examples from zoos prove. I mean sometimes one lucky paw swipe can kill an animal and sometimes fight and struggle can go on long times and no dead animals there.

So when you say maybe impossible, I say not likely, but in rare occasions possible :)

I think what he means is that a Lion or Tiger if it were so inclined it can kill the Leopard, the leopard being a carnivore has weapons that are used to kill or defend but the odds of them being able to get a hold of the Throat on a cat that outweighs them by 100kg at least is a long shot. But could a wound cause the Lion or Tiger to die in the long run, absolutely. But it's not like a Leopard is going to put up a territorial fight, it's going to put up a defensive fight which means it's going to be a buzzsaw trying to inflict enough damage to force a release and escape.

But without a doubt, there is only one ruler of the African Plains and the Indian Jungles and all Leopards give way to them.

Agreed, leopards fight only if it is only option and if totally cornered it is of course "all in". In those cases it can be sometimes bigger cat too suffering badly. Like that leopard facing those five lions, it would be furious battle in small space if some lion would leap in there, no surprise, that lions don´t want to go in there and lose their advantages to move freely and attack and retreat as they like to do based on situation.

Pantherinae · 01-23-2019, 11:56 PM

(01-23-2019, 11:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:09 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:00 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 10:27 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one example, cornered leopard with some advantage same time from place where it is limiting possibilities for these lionesses. Surprise element long gone for some reason.

But imagine there only one determined lioness or tigress, which would attack furiously against all the odds in that situation. There would be a total mess with eight paws with sharp claws etc. and no-one could be sure about the outcome. This is why I am not so surprised if there are rare cases, where tiger is killed by a leopard or both animals dead. It would be nice to get more information though, more photos of injuries etc. I can understand if being cautious, when something rare seems to happen, but rare isn´t same as impossible.

If an adult healthy lioness or tigress went all in to kill a leopard they would kill the leopard, and leave with only some bad cuts. The tigress killed by the leopard was still young and small, I have seen 4 lionesses attack 1 lioness with intention to kill and the lioness survives, and a dosin hyenas attacking a lone lioness, but she still survive, one leopard imo dosen’t have enough power to kill a lioness or a tigress before him himself would be dead. Cats can take a beating, and are durable as hell, but a lioness or tigress would snap the neck or back of a leopard quickly because of their superior size.

Video which shows the tremendous durability of a lioness, she survives this attack. Imo there isn’t a chance a lone leopard could kill a healthy adult one of these or a evenly matched tigress.

Young and very old lionesses/tigresses is another story.

I am not as confident as you are with outcome. I mean, if we have 10 cases, could be easily 10/10. But if 100, I would be surprised if no dead tigers too. But these are things, which can be seen in somewhat different ways and maybe no point to argue about small things, when overall opinion is quite same. So little things can change whole situation as some examples from zoos prove. I mean sometimes one lucky paw swipe can kill an animal and sometimes fight and struggle can go on long times and no dead animals there.

So when you say maybe impossible, I say not likely, but in rare occasions possible :)

I think what he means is that a Lion or Tiger if it were so inclined it can kill the Leopard, the leopard being a carnivore has weapons that are used to kill or defend but the odds of them being able to get a hold of the Throat on a cat that outweighs them by 100kg at least is a long shot. But could a wound cause the Lion or Tiger to die in the long run, absolutely. But it's not like a Leopard is going to put up a territorial fight, it's going to put up a defensive fight which means it's going to be a buzzsaw trying to inflict enough damage to force a release and escape.

But without a doubt, there is only one ruler of the African Plains and the Indian Jungles and all Leopards give way to them.

100% but even the damages a leopard can inflict, I think a helthy adult lioness/tigress would survive 99% of the time, if the leopard isn’t lucky and gets a deep cut on a the larger cat and they somehow bleed to death, but some of the injuries I’ve see lions survive from hyenas, buffalos and other lions is remarkable and I’m sure a tigress would do the same a little more vounrable ofcourse because they are a solatary animal that needs to be fit to hunt, and can’t relay on a pride.

Pckts · 01-24-2019, 12:14 AM

(01-23-2019, 11:56 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:09 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:00 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 10:27 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one example, cornered leopard with some advantage same time from place where it is limiting possibilities for these lionesses. Surprise element long gone for some reason.

But imagine there only one determined lioness or tigress, which would attack furiously against all the odds in that situation. There would be a total mess with eight paws with sharp claws etc. and no-one could be sure about the outcome. This is why I am not so surprised if there are rare cases, where tiger is killed by a leopard or both animals dead. It would be nice to get more information though, more photos of injuries etc. I can understand if being cautious, when something rare seems to happen, but rare isn´t same as impossible.

If an adult healthy lioness or tigress went all in to kill a leopard they would kill the leopard, and leave with only some bad cuts. The tigress killed by the leopard was still young and small, I have seen 4 lionesses attack 1 lioness with intention to kill and the lioness survives, and a dosin hyenas attacking a lone lioness, but she still survive, one leopard imo dosen’t have enough power to kill a lioness or a tigress before him himself would be dead. Cats can take a beating, and are durable as hell, but a lioness or tigress would snap the neck or back of a leopard quickly because of their superior size.

Video which shows the tremendous durability of a lioness, she survives this attack. Imo there isn’t a chance a lone leopard could kill a healthy adult one of these or a evenly matched tigress.

Young and very old lionesses/tigresses is another story.

I am not as confident as you are with outcome. I mean, if we have 10 cases, could be easily 10/10. But if 100, I would be surprised if no dead tigers too. But these are things, which can be seen in somewhat different ways and maybe no point to argue about small things, when overall opinion is quite same. So little things can change whole situation as some examples from zoos prove. I mean sometimes one lucky paw swipe can kill an animal and sometimes fight and struggle can go on long times and no dead animals there.

So when you say maybe impossible, I say not likely, but in rare occasions possible :)

I think what he means is that a Lion or Tiger if it were so inclined it can kill the Leopard, the leopard being a carnivore has weapons that are used to kill or defend but the odds of them being able to get a hold of the Throat on a cat that outweighs them by 100kg at least is a long shot. But could a wound cause the Lion or Tiger to die in the long run, absolutely. But it's not like a Leopard is going to put up a territorial fight, it's going to put up a defensive fight which means it's going to be a buzzsaw trying to inflict enough damage to force a release and escape.

But without a doubt, there is only one ruler of the African Plains and the Indian Jungles and all Leopards give way to them.
100% but even the damages a leopard can inflict, I think a helthy adult lioness/tigress would survive 99% of the time, if the leopard isn’t lucky and gets a deep cut on a the larger cat and they somehow bleed to death, but some of the injuries I’ve see lions survive from hyenas, buffalos and other lions is remarkable and I’m sure a tigress would do the same a little more vounrable ofcourse because they are a solatary animal that needs to be fit to hunt, and can’t relay on a pride.

For the most part, but there are things like infection and wounds which cause starvation that durability can do little to protect, these are outliers of course.
Considering most big cats withstand wounds that sometimes are the loss of an eye or worse, it's going to take an exceptional circumstance for a big cat to be killed by a defensive attack from a smaller cat.

Shadow · 01-24-2019, 12:21 AM

(01-24-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:56 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:09 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 11:00 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 10:27 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one example, cornered leopard with some advantage same time from place where it is limiting possibilities for these lionesses. Surprise element long gone for some reason.

But imagine there only one determined lioness or tigress, which would attack furiously against all the odds in that situation. There would be a total mess with eight paws with sharp claws etc. and no-one could be sure about the outcome. This is why I am not so surprised if there are rare cases, where tiger is killed by a leopard or both animals dead. It would be nice to get more information though, more photos of injuries etc. I can understand if being cautious, when something rare seems to happen, but rare isn´t same as impossible.

If an adult healthy lioness or tigress went all in to kill a leopard they would kill the leopard, and leave with only some bad cuts. The tigress killed by the leopard was still young and small, I have seen 4 lionesses attack 1 lioness with intention to kill and the lioness survives, and a dosin hyenas attacking a lone lioness, but she still survive, one leopard imo dosen’t have enough power to kill a lioness or a tigress before him himself would be dead. Cats can take a beating, and are durable as hell, but a lioness or tigress would snap the neck or back of a leopard quickly because of their superior size.

Video which shows the tremendous durability of a lioness, she survives this attack. Imo there isn’t a chance a lone leopard could kill a healthy adult one of these or a evenly matched tigress.

Young and very old lionesses/tigresses is another story.

I am not as confident as you are with outcome. I mean, if we have 10 cases, could be easily 10/10. But if 100, I would be surprised if no dead tigers too. But these are things, which can be seen in somewhat different ways and maybe no point to argue about small things, when overall opinion is quite same. So little things can change whole situation as some examples from zoos prove. I mean sometimes one lucky paw swipe can kill an animal and sometimes fight and struggle can go on long times and no dead animals there.

So when you say maybe impossible, I say not likely, but in rare occasions possible :)

I think what he means is that a Lion or Tiger if it were so inclined it can kill the Leopard, the leopard being a carnivore has weapons that are used to kill or defend but the odds of them being able to get a hold of the Throat on a cat that outweighs them by 100kg at least is a long shot. But could a wound cause the Lion or Tiger to die in the long run, absolutely. But it's not like a Leopard is going to put up a territorial fight, it's going to put up a defensive fight which means it's going to be a buzzsaw trying to inflict enough damage to force a release and escape.

But without a doubt, there is only one ruler of the African Plains and the Indian Jungles and all Leopards give way to them.
100% but even the damages a leopard can inflict, I think a helthy adult lioness/tigress would survive 99% of the time, if the leopard isn’t lucky and gets a deep cut on a the larger cat and they somehow bleed to death, but some of the injuries I’ve see lions survive from hyenas, buffalos and other lions is remarkable and I’m sure a tigress would do the same a little more vounrable ofcourse because they are a solatary animal that needs to be fit to hunt, and can’t relay on a pride.
For the most part, but there are things like infection and wounds which cause starvation that durability can do little to protect, these are outliers of course.
Considering most big cats withstand wounds that sometimes are the loss of an eye or worse, it's going to take an exceptional circumstance for a big cat to be killed by a defensive attack from a smaller cat.

Something like that maybe in that one case, where was reported about dead tiger and leopard. It would be nice to see more photos and information about it. But for some reason it seems to be very hard to find information about tiger mortality with causes of death. There can be like "74 natural causes" and no explanation which are considered as died to old age, which ones killed by gaurs, crocodiles or something else. Those do happen, but so little information available.

Rage2277 · 01-24-2019, 07:21 AM

no one finds this incident odd? "The leopard had sustained extensive injuries" ok..so what about the condition of the tigress? is that the photo of the tigress? where are these grievous injuries inflicted by the leopard? are leopards venomous ? “Though there were no indications of poisoning or any other kind of foul play, we are not taking any chances”, Mr. Srivastava said and added that the carcass of the tiger would be kept in a freezer ..wait..what? though this shouldn't even be debated,no wild adult leopard is killing any wild adult tiger/lion male or female..can they do damage? obviously,but nothing compared to what lions and tigers do to each other and walk away..it's like saying clouded leopards can kill adult african or indian leopards..that's not happening..the carcass found near the bodies was definitely laced with herbal poisoning http://tigertime.info/blog/6/Tiger-poach...bal-poison

Rishi · 01-24-2019, 07:48 AM

(01-24-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: For the most part, but there are things like infection and wounds which cause starvation that durability can do little to protect, these are outliers of course.
Considering most big cats withstand wounds that sometimes are the loss of an eye or worse, it's going to take an exceptional circumstance for a big cat to be killed by a defensive attack from a smaller cat.

Exactly!

A leopard may be capable of surviving an assault of a tigress, but managing to kill the aggressor is another thing entirely.
It would still make some sense if the tigress died of her injuries later on, but mutual "killed on spot" case is way to outlandish.

I agree with @Rage2277. They may have used the dead leopard to save their own behinds...

Shadow · 01-24-2019, 11:44 AM

(01-24-2019, 07:48 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: For the most part, but there are things like infection and wounds which cause starvation that durability can do little to protect, these are outliers of course.
Considering most big cats withstand wounds that sometimes are the loss of an eye or worse, it's going to take an exceptional circumstance for a big cat to be killed by a defensive attack from a smaller cat.

Exactly!

A leopard may be capable of surviving an assault of a tigress, but managing to kill the aggressor is another thing entirely.
It would still make some sense if the tigress died of her injuries later on, but mutual "killed on spot" case is way to outlandish.

I agree with @Rage2277. They may have used the dead leopard to save their own behinds...

Maybe, maybe not. I also would like to see more, but I don´t still keep that impossible, that it would have happened also in the way it is said to be. There were a lot of people on that photo, pity that no-one knows anyone there, it would be interesting to know more. Then again overall there is quite little information about causes of death, what comes to tigers killed by other animals. You can find sometimes some case, where is said, that most probably crocodile, another with leopard involved, then gaur can be mentioned. But when seeing statistics, there is just "natural causes 74". When looking statistics, that number most probably include tigers with old age and then tigers killed by other animals. There is for sure more information somewhere, but either it is very difficult to find or only in use of some researchers. I have even thought, that does someone want to protect "tiger reputation" and not giving information about cases where some other animal kills tiger.... people can be sometimes very odd.

But anyway, when something is questioned, it still doesn´t mean that it is a lie. To be 100% sure, more information would be needed. But I am personally 100% sure, that two big cats like leopard and tiger can fight with result like in that newspaper article. Did it happen in that case, that is a question which no-one here can answer 100% sure based on what I have seen, including myself :) But if someone can find more information, maybe sharing it here one day.

Shadow · 01-24-2019, 12:10 PM

(01-24-2019, 11:44 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 07:48 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: For the most part, but there are things like infection and wounds which cause starvation that durability can do little to protect, these are outliers of course.
Considering most big cats withstand wounds that sometimes are the loss of an eye or worse, it's going to take an exceptional circumstance for a big cat to be killed by a defensive attack from a smaller cat.

Exactly!

A leopard may be capable of surviving an assault of a tigress, but managing to kill the aggressor is another thing entirely.
It would still make some sense if the tigress died of her injuries later on, but mutual "killed on spot" case is way to outlandish.

I agree with @Rage2277. They may have used the dead leopard to save their own behinds...
Maybe, maybe not. I also would like to see more, but I don´t still keep that impossible, that it would have happened also in the way it is said to be. There were a lot of people on that photo, pity that no-one knows anyone there, it would be interesting to know more. Then again overall there is quite little information about causes of death, what comes to tigers killed by other animals. You can find sometimes some case, where is said, that most probably crocodile, another with leopard involved, then gaur can be mentioned. But when seeing statistics, there is just "natural causes 74". When looking statistics, that number most probably include tigers with old age and then tigers killed by other animals. There is for sure more information somewhere, but either it is very difficult to find or only in use of some researchers. I have even thought, that does someone want to protect "tiger reputation" and not giving information about cases where some other animal kills tiger.... people can be sometimes very odd.

But anyway, when something is questioned, it still doesn´t mean that it is a lie. To be 100% sure, more information would be needed. But I am personally 100% sure, that two big cats like leopard and tiger can fight with result like in that newspaper article. Did it happen in that case, that is a question which no-one here can answer 100% sure based on what I have seen, including myself :) But if someone can find more information, maybe sharing it here one day.

One thing which I forgot to write. Those photos and that article didn´t include information was there suspected maybe, that during that fight tigress might have fallen from tree at some point. We have seen videos where tigress chases leopard to a tree and quite high, if for some reason falling from there, it could have cause internal injuries. That could be the reason to put a tiger to freezer for later more accurate investigation about cause of death. And some other possibilities too, but because all speculation maybe not using more space to go through all possibilities :) I know that India is a big country, but really if possible, it would be really nice if some member from there could look even briefly if any extra information could be found, there are some names after all and maybe they would tell more if sending email and asking.

Spalea · 01-24-2019, 12:45 PM

IMO between captive felids anything can happen. In zoo we sometimes learn that a lioness kills a male lion, a leopard kills a tigress. So what ? What about their health, age, physical conditions (are they poorly fed, mistreated ?) ? We don't know but anything is possible. We just have the brute fact.

In wild, if a big felid wants to kill a smaller one (by a significant margin), the maximum that the latter could hope is to escape itself. Of course accident can happen, a bad fall for example. But I don't believe at all that the smaller cat could exclusively kill the big one. The big one could be wounded too, ( leopards for example could lacerate the opponent's face in a case of desperate attempt, thex excell at it), but killed in a furious fight ? No.

Rishi · 01-24-2019, 12:57 PM

@Spalea what @Shadow said in his last post is quite possible...

Shadow · 01-24-2019, 03:54 PM

(01-24-2019, 12:45 PM)Spalea Wrote: IMO between captive felids anything can happen. In zoo we sometimes learn that a lioness kills a male lion, a leopard kills a tigress. So what ? What about their health, age, physical conditions (are they poorly fed, mistreated ?) ? We don't know but anything is possible. We just have the brute fact.

In wild, if a big felid wants to kill a smaller one (by a significant margin), the maximum that the latter could hope is to escape itself. Of course accident can happen, a bad fall for example. But I don't believe at all that the smaller cat could exclusively kill the big one. The big one could be wounded too, ( leopards for example could lacerate the opponent's face in a case of desperate attempt, thex excell at it), but killed in a furious fight ? No.

In this we disagree, because I believe, that what can happen in captivity can happen also in wildlife, what comes to outcome of some fight. But that doesn´t mean, that I would think it to be common thing to happen in wildlife. Leopards have been fighting back only in situations, where it has been only option, cornered or not enough time and space to turn and run. Still escaping immediately when possible. But if cornered, like in that situation with 5 lionesses, if any animal would leap in that small space with that leopard, it would be a total mess and I personally don´t feel confident to say what outcome would be. I would give favor to bigger, but I wouldn´t be surprised if something else.

About that people can have their own opinions, but I have mine and there is no way, that someone could convince me that impossible ever for leopard to win that kind of situation. This is just how I see it based on many things. I just have seen too many "impossible things" to think otherwise :) As I said to pantherinae, I use words like highly unlikely, most probable not or very likely, most probable... so when I talk about leopards chances, I say, that it is most probable that leopard loses confrontations with tigers and lions, but in rare occasions it can have a chance. So when there is this one case with only a little information, I am curious, but I don´t see there anything what I would dare to call impossible.

And also, if two animals are found dead near each others, it doesn´t mean, that they would have died at same moment. One can been killed first there, then another one while badly injured moved some distance before laying down and maybe dead after some time, some hours. Sometimes "winner" is maybe never found depending of terrain and how motivated people are to track down possibly wounded animal.

I actually linked that story here to practice what Rishi told to me about linking and copying things here, I was curious to find more information about that case, but on the other hand maybe it was good coincidence to have some conversation :) Maybe now someone else is motivated to look that closer and finds something. Article was creating more questions than answering and naturally it is far from confirmed case.

Spalea · 01-24-2019, 04:25 PM

@Shadow :

About #582: We can never know what happens in the animals' mind. If the leopard is cornered by 5 lionesses, it would react very aggressively because it's a life or death question. And the lionesses surely not as motivated would be badly surprised. Sometimes lions seem to be debonair, nonchalant, in their acts and against a raging leopard it isn't the good attitude.

The leopard in this case wouldn't insist. It can take advantage of the surprise that its aggressiv reaction provoked and flee away as quickly as possible. But IMO, it isn't going to continue fighting against 5 lionnesses at the same time.

Otherwise I said that anything can happen. A lioness or a tigress climbing upto a tree by chasing a leopard can have a bad fall. But it isn't the leopard which would have killed them.

We aren't witness, we don't know what happened exactly, some facts will remain unknown. We are only hypothesizing !

Shadow · 01-24-2019, 04:52 PM

(01-24-2019, 04:25 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :

About #582: We can never know what happens in the animals' mind. If the leopard is cornered by 5 lionesses, it would react very aggressively because it's a life or death question. And the lionesses surely not as motivated would be badly surprised. Sometimes lions seem to be debonair, nonchalant, in their acts and against a raging leopard it isn't the good attitude.

The leopard in this case wouldn't insist. It can take advantage of the surprise that its aggressiv reaction provoked and flee away as quickly as possible. But IMO, it isn't going to continue fighting against 5 lionnesses at the same time.

Otherwise I said that anything can happen. A lioness or a tigress climbing upto a tree by chasing a leopard can have a bad fall. But it isn't the leopard which would have killed them.

We aren't witness, we don't know what happened exactly, some facts will remain unknown. We are only hypothesizing !

Exactly, we can never know what happens in animals mind, so anything is possible in rare occasion even though usually it would go in certain "pattern" :) And in that case with 5 lions, of course that leopard wants to flee, but as you and I can see, when it has no opportunity it fights with all what it has, there is no option as long as lions are "too close", turning back in that situation would be lethal to leopard, it needs some space to flee, it for sure wants to survive, not die.

And yes, there are open questions about many cases, this is one of them. So we can agree about some things and then we can have some things where we slightly disagree. But I think, that in big picture our opinion is quite same. I am not saying, that leopards would kill tigers all the time, in known cases it happens to be tiger killing a leopard. I only say how I see and think and I don´t think, that it would be impossible for a leopard to kill a tiger or a lion in some occasions, even if it is happening all the time on ground level. Which doesn´t mean, that I would believe, that it would happen often :) I think, that in rare occasions it can happen. A little bit like with wild boar and tiger. When tiger kill and eat wild boar, no-one cares, it happens so often. But when wild boar kills a tiger, it is headlines :)

Jimmy · 01-24-2019, 04:55 PM

what I always believed is that, the smaller feline although vastly inferior in terms of power to its larger brethren can still have one advantage, it can fight on all fours i.e. use its bottom legs due to it being shorter, But there is big IF, If the larger cat is inexperience and tries to outmuscle solely by pinning smaller cat by using it's brute strength and front limbs, it could lend itself to a fatal positioning by exposing it's belly, I thought this on brown bear/ tiger interaction as well. While bigger animal has more strength and can outmuscle its opponent into choice manuver, less experience cat or bear for that matter might get a little careless, it's little hard to explain so I made a drawing

*This image is copyright of its original author

On no.1 a larger say tigress subdues a male leopard but, leopard can thrust it's hind legs from this position, tigress is fighting with two front limbs plus fangs. While leopard is fighting on all fours or at least trying to.
On no.2 a more experience tiger control it's opppnent, gets the throat and keeps distance nullyfying the leopards trailing legs.

So for me it's like smaller cats uses all fours while bigger cat uses front limbs for control. Of course most of the times the larger animal with itsitmore power always controls his opponent to get the best position but this I think is the reason why smaller cats could be deadly defensively and larger cat seems to know this. Ever seen leopard goes belly up instantly while a larger lioness reluctently goes away!!!

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