There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
12-21-2018, 04:48 AM( This post was last modified: 12-21-2018, 04:48 AM by Shadow )
(12-21-2018, 04:29 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 04:19 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 04:02 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 02:37 AM)Jeffrey Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 01:20 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the lions were convincing enough for these Tigers?"
It's just a matter of personality traits between two different species, both were behaving in a way they find suitable.
While I agree that these cats need more space, fighting and asserting dominance are a way of life for big cats, it doesn't matter if they have ample room or not, it's in their nature.
We live in an age where physical altercations aren't accepted but in animals, physical altercations are one of their most efficient ways of communication.
And yes, fights happen too, but that happens to be the case when two really dominant and confident animals face each others in certain situation. When another one is more dominant, fight isn´t needed. Small cages then again make bigger risk for situation where animal feels cornered and then fight even though if more space, it would have retreated situation or showed submission. It can happen in wildlife too, but most probably there is always room to retreat or enough space for animal to submit and still have room to flee if that is only way to show, that giving up.
These small cages are simply disgrace and I don´t understand the idea having there lions and tigers like we have seen now in these videos.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Spalea
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the lions were convincing enough for these Tigers?"
It's just a matter of personality traits between two different species, both were behaving in a way they find suitable.
While I agree that these cats need more space, fighting and asserting dominance are a way of life for big cats, it doesn't matter if they have ample room or not, it's in their nature.
We live in an age where physical altercations aren't accepted but in animals, physical altercations are one of their most efficient ways of communication.
I meant, that luckily they were convincing enough for tigers so, that real fights could be avoided. If they wouldn´t have been, there would have been most probably a fight. And then there would have been injured or dead animals just because zoo keepers put them there to so small cages.
Both were convincing in their own way, The Tiger Saber from Carney decided he had enough and it was time to fight, they fought then postured and went on their way. Big Cats will do that, sometimes they will snap and Kill a cage mate as well, we've seen it with Captive Lions and Tigers killing their life long mates, we have also seen this in the Wild as well, just a few months ago the Sangam Male from Kanha killed his mate, the Budbudi female for some reason.
But I don't wan't to get sidetracked from your major point and that is yes, these big cats need far more space than offered to them. But some exhibits to rotate their cats from feeding enclosures to larger enclosures, generally this done to give multiple individuals their own "play time."
Thats not the case always but I've seen it in many Sanctuaries I've been to here in the states, as long as they are accredited.
We're not going to get rid of captive cats any time soon and for many of us, these places are a great place to see the animals we love up close and personal, but it is our responsibility to make sure wherever we go serves the will of the animal and not their own pockets.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the lions were convincing enough for these Tigers?"
It's just a matter of personality traits between two different species, both were behaving in a way they find suitable.
While I agree that these cats need more space, fighting and asserting dominance are a way of life for big cats, it doesn't matter if they have ample room or not, it's in their nature.
We live in an age where physical altercations aren't accepted but in animals, physical altercations are one of their most efficient ways of communication.
I meant, that luckily they were convincing enough for tigers so, that real fights could be avoided. If they wouldn´t have been, there would have been most probably a fight. And then there would have been injured or dead animals just because zoo keepers put them there to so small cages.
Both were convincing in their own way, The Tiger Saber from Carney decided he had enough and it was time to fight, they fought then postured and went on their way. Big Cats will do that, sometimes they will snap and Kill a cage mate as well, we've seen it with Captive Lions and Tigers killing their life long mates, we have also seen this in the Wild as well, just a few months ago the Sangam Male from Kanha killed his mate, the Budbudi female for some reason.
But I don't wan't to get sidetracked from your major point and that is yes, these big cats need far more space than offered to them. But some exhibits to rotate their cats from feeding enclosures to larger enclosures, generally this done to give multiple individuals their own "play time."
Thats not the case always but I've seen it in many Sanctuaries I've been to here in the states, as long as they are accredited.
We're not going to get rid of captive cats any time soon and for many of us, these places are a great place to see the animals we love up close and personal, but it is our responsibility to make sure wherever we go serves the will of the animal and not their own pockets.
Yes many things happen in captivity which are rarely or never seen in wildlife. It is also normal, that different people can have somewhat different conclusions about some situations, that is not dangerous :) I have also been interested about animals including big cats for decades. When younger, maybe with more emotion, than nowadays :) Tigers were my favorite animals for a long time. But in time lions, leopards, gorillas and bears etc. came there all equally interesting and fascinating. So nowadays I am quite pragmatic. When I see a lion showing dominance, that´s it. When I see a tiger do it, that´s it. Here when I commented, that lions were convincing enough was just what I saw. Someone else can see it differently, no problem.
It doesn´t happen always as can be seen in so many videos where serious fights starts in split seconds. Also in those videos from China, it took at least two short fights before tiger(s) gave up to that lion. Who knows what would have happened in smaller cage. But those fights seemed to be more some "testing" that who is "the one" without going over the edge and fight to death.
What comes to zoos, I do see, that they do also good for animals. There should be just maybe more regulations what is demanded for certain animals. There will most probably always be some "accidents" when keeping animals in captivity, still those risks should be minimized. Putting tigers and lions in the same cage just isn´t that. It feels more like taking a calculated risk for something sad to happen. I have no problem when different species meet in wildlife and maybe fight etc. But in captivity that is for me just an example about it, that how people don´t think or care enough. But that´s only my opinion :)
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Nyers
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
I agree on that. Lions tend to be overprotective over his mate female, while tiger's cares more for themself. Kinda like their natural behaviour one builds a pride the other cat is a "solitary" cat. They behave different. In Nature tiger's are solitary but "social" in their own way. Males often visit their females and their cubs from time to time and even share their kills if needed.
Anyways i meant their fighting style is not so different in a 1vs1 in captivity or wild. They try to get the uper hand and dominate the fight .It depending on the individuals who is the aggressor or not, not on the species.
The last two videos you shared the tiger seemed to be the dominant one while the lion was protective.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
I agree on that. Lions tend to be overprotective over his mate female, while tiger's cares more for themself. Kinda like their natural behaviour one builds a pride the other cat is a "solitary" cat. They behave different. In Nature tiger's are solitary but "social" in their own way. Males often visit their females and their cubs from time to time and even share their kills if needed.
Anyways i meant their fighting style is not so different in a 1vs1 in captivity or wild. They try to get the uper hand and dominate the fight .It depending on the individuals who is the aggressor or not, not on the species.
The last two videos you shared the tiger seemed to be the dominant one while the lion was protective.
I have to add this much. When I wrote, that convincing enough and later, that when another one is more dominant fight isn´t needed, I didn´t mean, that situations couldn´t be in any other way. Of course there are times, when dominance isn´t clear and still no real fight. There are not too many absolute truths in wildlife because animals are also individuals, no matter what species.
I agree, that in last two videos case was looking like to be more, that both didn´t have will to test really each others, but then again not willing to submit either. Kind of balance. When I said convincing enough was meant, that convincing enough to avoid that real fight, where both really go for it. Those fights look so different, than some swipes like here could be seen.
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01-11-2019, 03:15 PM( This post was last modified: 01-11-2019, 03:15 PM by AlexE )
Interaction of stripped hyena and leopard
Interspecific interactions are crucial for community composition since they govern species distribution, abundance and broadly species coexistence. Interspecific interactions among carnivores have been well studied in India. However, these were limited to a few species only and direct observations are rare. Studies on interspecific interaction between two sympatric carnivores such as leopard and striped hyena with a wide distribution range throughout peninsular India are rare. We report two instances of interactions between leopard Panthera pardus and striped hyena Hyaena hyaena. In one instance, a leopard and a striped hyena were photographed feeding together on an adult nilgai Boselaphus tragocamelus kill of a tigress Panthera tigris. We have also recorded a breeding female leopard that killed a striped hyena (sub-adult female) at a den site. We report here photographic evidence on these interactions between leopard and striped hyena for the first time.
Kleptoparasitism has been reported in leopards. However, striped hyena and leopard feeding together has been recorded for the first time to our knowledge. We continued camera trapping for a few days and searched for any evidence of aggressive interaction, but we did not find anything. Later the tigress came back to the kill and consumed it (Fig. 1b).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
In another incident, a leopard with two cubs killed a striped hyena in Sariska Tiger Reserve on 24 December 2014. The killed hyena was from a breeding clan. The clan consisted of a breeding female, two sub-adult helpers and three pups. Sub-adult striped hyenas babysit for their mother at dens and ensure the survival of young pups (Jhala 2013). They can be fatal for young leopards. Their den site was inside the leopard’s home range. The leopard detected the den and later killed the helper striped hyena possibly to protect her cubs from any potential danger (Fig. 2a, b & SOM F2). We found the carcass of the striped hyena next to the den. Initial examination of bite marks and indirect evidence such as pugmarks revealed that the hyena was killed by a leopard. However, the carcass was left untouched. Consequently, the clan left the den site after the loss of the female sub-adult helper hyena.
Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
