There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
12-20-2018, 07:56 PM( This post was last modified: 12-20-2018, 07:59 PM by Shadow )
(12-20-2018, 02:52 PM)Apollo Wrote: Tiger and lion interaction video, looks to be a new video.
That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
12-20-2018, 08:35 PM( This post was last modified: 12-20-2018, 08:44 PM by Rishi )
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
12-20-2018, 08:54 PM( This post was last modified: 12-20-2018, 08:59 PM by Shadow )
(12-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
12-21-2018, 02:06 AM( This post was last modified: 12-21-2018, 02:11 AM by Shadow )
(12-21-2018, 01:20 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Again short fight and dispersing, when there is a lot of room. Of course we can make many hypotheses about this, but in the end that was quite short confrontation and impossible to know what animals where feeling really. Maybe just testing each others and both kind of agreed, that either one wants to find out more. Maybe both felt power of each others there and understood, that outcome of real fight would be about luck, neither feeling confident enough to fight more. Maybe different thing if these two both desperately hungry and meeting at carcass.
Anyway interesting to see how short these fights have been, where there is room. In situations, where fights have occurred in small cages etc. without possibility to take some distance without being cornered these confrontations are often longer and real danger, that one or another gets injured.
12-21-2018, 02:35 AM( This post was last modified: 12-21-2018, 02:37 AM by Shadow )
(12-21-2018, 02:06 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 01:20 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Again short fight and dispersing, when there is a lot of room. Of course we can make many hypotheses about this, but in the end that was quite short confrontation and impossible to know what animals where feeling really. Maybe just testing each others and both kind of agreed, that either one wants to find out more. Maybe both felt power of each others there and understood, that outcome of real fight would be about luck, neither feeling confident enough to fight more. Maybe different thing if these two both desperately hungry and meeting at carcass.
Anyway interesting to see how short these fights have been, where there is room. In situations, where fights have occurred in small cages etc. without possibility to take some distance without being cornered these confrontations are often longer and real danger, that one or another gets injured.
One thing, which is odd. If those are same animals fighting there over and over again, it feels crazy to have them in same enclosure. But hopefully this third video from same place indicates, that they have found out who is the boss there.
I couldn´t care less which one dominates there. But keeping in same enclosure animals with "issues" and able to hurt each others badly, even kill. That is just stupid.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
12-21-2018, 04:29 AM( This post was last modified: 12-21-2018, 04:38 AM by Pckts )
(12-21-2018, 04:19 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 04:02 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 02:37 AM)Jeffrey Wrote:
(12-21-2018, 01:20 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the lions were convincing enough for these Tigers?"
It's just a matter of personality traits between two different species, both were behaving in a way they find suitable.
While I agree that these cats need more space, fighting and asserting dominance are a way of life for big cats, it doesn't matter if they have ample room or not, it's in their nature.
We live in an age where physical altercations aren't accepted but in animals, physical altercations are one of their most efficient ways of communication.
(12-20-2018, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote: That is a good video showing it once again how tiger and lion "fanboys" are both wrong as usual. When wild animals have space, there are no absolute truths, like "lions fight always to the death" or "tigers do this and that"... in wildlife there are individuals among species and even though something can happen often it doesn´t mean, that it happens always. Of course videos with fierce fights get a lot of attention, but still often things go just like in here. Two dominant predators have some issue, but neither of them wants to test another really and they disperse.
I have read myself about one case, where a man told how he witnessed encounter between Asiatic lion and tiger in wildlife and he told, that there was a short fight and then they dispersed, no "winner". All other cases I can remember are in zoos or circuses in unnatural environment and situation.
In this case you're right, the lion didn't push his luck, but he does seem to behave like the dominant one of the two.
But ofcourse there can be losers...from time to time. The wilderness is littered with bodies of the losers.
Also the captive specimens (circus, zoos etc.) tend to behave much more rashly as i noted. Even semi-captive ones like these two are more cautious & "natural".
My point is just, that it is impossible to say absolutely how things develop, when different species meet. Especially when so equally sized like lion and tiger. I mean, they don´t keep there scales with them and do weighings if they confront to make valuations, that which one has maybe 20-50 kg weigh advantage. Often people give reasoning based on that, what they see happening when lions meet lions or tigers meet tigers. Or what has happened in very unnatural environment and situations.
I am not at all so convinced, that male lion would fight against a tiger in same way as it treats other male lions challenging it for leadership for instance. It might be even more fierce, but then again it could give up a lot easier if alone. Same with tiger, who knows. Here in this video there was a lot of room, not some small cage etc. where impossible to take distance. And what happened.... I personally don´t take too seriously most of hypotheses how tiger and lion would act if confronting, simply because no-one really knows.
Another newer one
I think it's safe to assume in a Captive environment, the Lion usually will be the aggressor while the Tiger is the more cunning one "cheap shot artist" if you will.
Tigers you'll see more often attack when they feel their opponent is vulnerable.
A Lion wants to get the point across that he is the dominant force, when he starts a fight with a Tiger and the Tiger gets low or turns over, the Lion probably feels as though his point was made but when you see the fight persist you see that the Tiger is doing so because he prefers to Grapple, he wants to be close and claw and bite his way to a fatal bite while not allowing the opponent to regain their upright footing while the lion wants to close the distance in a straight forward way, they want to bully their opponent into backing down.
You see it in the video above, the Lion is the aggressor and the Tiger may look to submit but you'll notice he isn't running, he's waiting for the lion to engage and then he wants to tangle up the lion and fight more similar to a Leopard or Jaguar.
You'll notice that the Lion makes another turn to reengage but thinks twice, maybe because he thinks he got his point across, maybe he realized that his opponent isn't a push over and he doesn't want to face the consequences of a sustained battle.
It really two completely different mentalities when it comes to fighting.
Yes and no . I guess they both fight in a similar way in a 1vs1 and try to get the uper hand. It's difficult to observe in the wild cuz a lions life is more about a coalition without that he stands no chance to claim a territory. Tigers will try to kill each other or fight over territory's by themself a solitary cat. Take Umarpani's fight scenes for example . there are for me no different mentalities in fighting. It comes down to the individuals mostly. There is no one in captivity who is always the aggressor. It's also often the tiger who is the aggressor and other way around. It comes down to the individuals.
The Wild is a completely different scenario but in captivity it's usually the Lion who is the aggressor more often than not, that doesn't mean that Tigers aren't from time to time but the Lion is usually described as the food or mate aggressive cat where that doesn't usually apply as often to the Tiger. All that means is that the Lion is generally the one who instigates the spat, they are the more hot headed of the two. It's not an advantage or disadvantage for either, it's just their natural disposition. Aggression doesn't mean victory, you can be overly aggressive and put yourself in bad situations because you lose sight of defending your weak spots or you create openings with your carelessness, but the flip side is that if your opponent isn't as sure of themselves you have a far better chance of asserting dominance over them.
Here is a good example...
The male here wants to make sure all others know this is his female, even chasing one of the Tigress away while he doesn't make attempts at the Male Tiger he does think about it a couple of times, obviously isn't quite ready to commit to the an outright attack but the Male Tiger almost looks to be aware but unfazed by the whole thing. He's probably unsure why this Lion who I'm sure was raised with all these other cats (they all look to be around the same age, 3ish) is behaving this way.
Another example here:
Here you see the Lion being food aggressive with his Tiger Brother
then you see him here putting himself between the female and the male Tiger, again the Lion is very uneasy while the Tiger looks a bit perturbed, the Tigers fur is raised on his neck but still he doesn't feel the need to attack.
and the last is here where you can see the Tiger decides to engage but the spat is short lived, I'd even go as far to say the Tiger is probably the dominate one of the two but the Lion being the jealous type will continue to make threats and be uneasy.
It's just their nature, two very different ideas of what dominance means to them.
Most important thing is, that in all these cases animals could solve it without fights. I don´t understand the point to put them in so small cages as in these videos. Like staff would like to have fights there. Good, that in these cases lions were convincing enough for these tigers. I simply hate to see when fights happen in zoos and circuses between lions and tigers. What happens in wildlife is part of natural order. That chinese zoo at least seemed to have a lot of space for animals.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the lions were convincing enough for these Tigers?"
It's just a matter of personality traits between two different species, both were behaving in a way they find suitable.
While I agree that these cats need more space, fighting and asserting dominance are a way of life for big cats, it doesn't matter if they have ample room or not, it's in their nature.
We live in an age where physical altercations aren't accepted but in animals, physical altercations are one of their most efficient ways of communication.
I meant, that luckily they were convincing enough for tigers so, that real fights could be avoided. If they wouldn´t have been, there would have been most probably a fight. And then there would have been injured or dead animals just because zoo keepers put them there to so small cages.
Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
