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GuateGojira · 11-03-2014, 08:51 PM

(11-01-2014, 11:23 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(10-31-2014, 10:32 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(10-30-2014, 11:53 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: While some prefer collars, that is by no means, all. And many prefer not to do it, so that is up to the biologist. But a biologist doesn't always have the interest of the species or nature in mind, and human inquires may or may not serve a purpose in cosnervation. And while logistics may not always allow camera traps to be placed all over, they can usually still be placed in abundance in the areas that allow it. We have learned far more about tiger society due to video and camera trap than we ever have learned from radio collars. Think about all the new tiger fathers we now have documented living with their family, hunting together, protecting their young etc. We wouldn't have learned that from a collar, only from visual proof. I am not saying that collars can't offer some good information, I am saying that camera traps and video can offer just as much with a far less invasive means of doing so and with out any tiger dying from unatural causes. While you may be willing to accept a few tiger deaths as long as science is involved, I am not. 1 tiger death or 100, its far to high of a price to pay.

I think that Peter explained very well the point, although he focused in Russian tigers and not the Bengal ones, which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems. However, on your post, I will like to point out that the problem here is not to "accept" a few tiger deaths in the name of science, the point here is that those deaths were accidental and this is a risk that any one most take when we begin something new. All, I mean ALL scientific fields had sad stories in they past, from the persecution of the old scientists just because they said that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, up to the dead of Marie Curie, which died from radiation. All new fields have risks and those risks are involved in the famous "curve of learning". Science take a chance and often succeed, yes, two tigers died in Nepal, but all the others survived and now, Nepalese tigers are the only one that we actually know all they morphological, ecological and sociological facts. Obviously the price was low in comparison with what we now have. In fact, Nepalese tigers are about the few populations that actually have a chance to survive in the long therm, specially with the plan of the interconnection of the Terai arc (from Corbett (extreme west) up to Manas (extreme east)).

Other thing, although the behavior of the father tiger was actually discovered trough direct observations, there where not camera traps involved. The pictures and observations came from people that actually saw the events, principally Valmik Thapar, who in his book "Tiger, the secret life", presented by the first time this new insight of the life of the tiger.

I present, again, the case of the Sumatran tigers against the Nepalese tigers. Sumatra is full of camera traps and videos, but how much information we have about Sumatran tigers (size, ecology, behavior)? Now, compare the Nepalese tigers, we have all available data! Sumatran tigers have been studied since 2002 by several scientists, but at 2014 there are maybe two or three documents at the most, and from radiocollared tigers. This show that radiocollaring tigers in one of the best methods to study tigers, and the risk is few for the specimens. In this case, it is incorrect to say that camera traps have produced most of data, for the contrary, they have only produced demographic data, but not biological or social one, this came from Radiocollaring studies and long therm direct observations.

There is other point that have not been touched, the professionals that worked with tigers. Scientists and Vets that work with tigers most be professionals and experts in the field. Is possible that a bad work provoked the death of that tigress in modern times, but that is a human mistake, not that Radiocollar tigers is bad. However, testimonies from Nagarahole, Panna and Sariska, provided no evidence of problems or deaths in captures.

Finally, like Peter said, there is a War here, and if we don't take risks in order to get all possible information, tigers will die and remember this, your utopia of a "alone nature" is an impossibility now. There is not a single tiger population that don't coexist with humans. We can't just left the nature alone, if we do that, other ones will enter, and you know what would happen (Panna and Sariska most sound in your ears).

I sustain my point, if we want TRUE "Tiger science", both methods most be used, if not, only partial information will be available.

How many camera traps does sumatra have?
What sq. mile % do they cover?
I have seen very little "camera trap" footage from sumatra, and that is because sumatra is not a easy place to view. Tide rises and lowers leaving it almost impossible to have camer traps up since they would be covered by water half the day. The trekking is very harsh and dangerous.

On this statement
"which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems"
Tigers have died in India due to collaring or sedation, so it is no more safe than any where else.
T24 or T42 (forget which one) has become a man killer and is aggressive towards vehicles, its just a unnecassary risk to the tiger and man.

But even if no tigers ever died, its still wrong. Its wrong to put human devices on animals, plain and simple. I know this is far fetched, but imagine a alien species comes to earth, they pick random people out, then they sedate them, put a collar on them that they cannot take off, then monitor them until a time they see fit.
It would be a cause for war, its no different for a animal. No matter what "good intention" you have, this is wrong. Animals are no different than us.

First: ALL the pictures of wild Sumatran tigers that you have saw are camera traps, so don't came here to say that you have saw little of them, that is a fallacy from you. We have a huge amount of them and they are used for the specific purpose of counting tigers, which is the function of cameras, nothing more.

Second: You are twisting my words. I said: "he (Peter) focused in Russian tigers and not the Bengal ones, which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems". What I say here is that in comparison, the method of capture used in the Indian subcontinent seems to be more safe than that of Russia, in fact, only TWO tigers died in the ten years of radiocollaring tigers in Nepal and NO tiger died in the captures in Nagarahole, Panna, Ranthambore and Pench. Apart from that only other TWO died in a period of almost 40 YEARS!!! So, only four deaths in 40 years and about 100 captures, and you STILL say that the method is unsafe??? You are clearly biased agains this method and against any scientific method, judging from your words. Finally, you are still using that SINGLE case of the Ranthambore male that get aggressive toward humans after collaring, but according with your words, this is INCORRECT, check your own post:

PCTS say: "I'd be carefull using singular examples as rules."
Source: http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-are-tige...44#pid6044

So, are you cold or are you hot? You contradict yourself. [Image: dodgy.gif]

Third: Now you are delirious, aliens and collars? Don't you have a better example. Funny words:
PCKTS say: "But even if no tigers ever died, its still wrong"
Wrong by WHO??? Only for you, because several tigers had been collared (and will be collared) and lived a perfectly normal life (Sunquist, 1981, Karanth, 2003), they hunt, they mate, they fight, they have done ALL the normal things that a tiger actually do. You are been paranoic again with this kind of comments. And of course, animals ARE different than us, even the smarts animals can't be compare with a human, there is a difference between us. Be careful in these comments, a dog don't have the same dignity that a human been. Hope you don't twist my words in this last and specific issue here too.

Pckts · 11-03-2014, 11:27 PM

(11-03-2014, 08:51 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(11-01-2014, 11:23 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(10-31-2014, 10:32 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(10-30-2014, 11:53 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: While some prefer collars, that is by no means, all. And many prefer not to do it, so that is up to the biologist. But a biologist doesn't always have the interest of the species or nature in mind, and human inquires may or may not serve a purpose in cosnervation. And while logistics may not always allow camera traps to be placed all over, they can usually still be placed in abundance in the areas that allow it. We have learned far more about tiger society due to video and camera trap than we ever have learned from radio collars. Think about all the new tiger fathers we now have documented living with their family, hunting together, protecting their young etc. We wouldn't have learned that from a collar, only from visual proof. I am not saying that collars can't offer some good information, I am saying that camera traps and video can offer just as much with a far less invasive means of doing so and with out any tiger dying from unatural causes. While you may be willing to accept a few tiger deaths as long as science is involved, I am not. 1 tiger death or 100, its far to high of a price to pay.

I think that Peter explained very well the point, although he focused in Russian tigers and not the Bengal ones, which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems. However, on your post, I will like to point out that the problem here is not to "accept" a few tiger deaths in the name of science, the point here is that those deaths were accidental and this is a risk that any one most take when we begin something new. All, I mean ALL scientific fields had sad stories in they past, from the persecution of the old scientists just because they said that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, up to the dead of Marie Curie, which died from radiation. All new fields have risks and those risks are involved in the famous "curve of learning". Science take a chance and often succeed, yes, two tigers died in Nepal, but all the others survived and now, Nepalese tigers are the only one that we actually know all they morphological, ecological and sociological facts. Obviously the price was low in comparison with what we now have. In fact, Nepalese tigers are about the few populations that actually have a chance to survive in the long therm, specially with the plan of the interconnection of the Terai arc (from Corbett (extreme west) up to Manas (extreme east)).

Other thing, although the behavior of the father tiger was actually discovered trough direct observations, there where not camera traps involved. The pictures and observations came from people that actually saw the events, principally Valmik Thapar, who in his book "Tiger, the secret life", presented by the first time this new insight of the life of the tiger.

I present, again, the case of the Sumatran tigers against the Nepalese tigers. Sumatra is full of camera traps and videos, but how much information we have about Sumatran tigers (size, ecology, behavior)? Now, compare the Nepalese tigers, we have all available data! Sumatran tigers have been studied since 2002 by several scientists, but at 2014 there are maybe two or three documents at the most, and from radiocollared tigers. This show that radiocollaring tigers in one of the best methods to study tigers, and the risk is few for the specimens. In this case, it is incorrect to say that camera traps have produced most of data, for the contrary, they have only produced demographic data, but not biological or social one, this came from Radiocollaring studies and long therm direct observations.

There is other point that have not been touched, the professionals that worked with tigers. Scientists and Vets that work with tigers most be professionals and experts in the field. Is possible that a bad work provoked the death of that tigress in modern times, but that is a human mistake, not that Radiocollar tigers is bad. However, testimonies from Nagarahole, Panna and Sariska, provided no evidence of problems or deaths in captures.

Finally, like Peter said, there is a War here, and if we don't take risks in order to get all possible information, tigers will die and remember this, your utopia of a "alone nature" is an impossibility now. There is not a single tiger population that don't coexist with humans. We can't just left the nature alone, if we do that, other ones will enter, and you know what would happen (Panna and Sariska most sound in your ears).

I sustain my point, if we want TRUE "Tiger science", both methods most be used, if not, only partial information will be available.

How many camera traps does sumatra have?
What sq. mile % do they cover?
I have seen very little "camera trap" footage from sumatra, and that is because sumatra is not a easy place to view. Tide rises and lowers leaving it almost impossible to have camer traps up since they would be covered by water half the day. The trekking is very harsh and dangerous.

On this statement
"which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems"
Tigers have died in India due to collaring or sedation, so it is no more safe than any where else.
T24 or T42 (forget which one) has become a man killer and is aggressive towards vehicles, its just a unnecassary risk to the tiger and man.

But even if no tigers ever died, its still wrong. Its wrong to put human devices on animals, plain and simple. I know this is far fetched, but imagine a alien species comes to earth, they pick random people out, then they sedate them, put a collar on them that they cannot take off, then monitor them until a time they see fit.
It would be a cause for war, its no different for a animal. No matter what "good intention" you have, this is wrong. Animals are no different than us.

First: ALL the pictures of wild Sumatran tigers that you have saw are camera traps, so don't came here to say that you have saw little of them, that is a fallacy from you. We have a huge amount of them and they are used for the specific purpose of counting tigers, which is the function of cameras, nothing more.

Second: You are twisting my words. I said: "he (Peter) focused in Russian tigers and not the Bengal ones, which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems". What I say here is that in comparison, the method of capture used in the Indian subcontinent seems to be more safe than that of Russia, in fact, only TWO tigers died in the ten years of radiocollaring tigers in Nepal and NO tiger died in the captures in Nagarahole, Panna, Ranthambore and Pench. Apart from that only other TWO died in a period of almost 40 YEARS!!! So, only four deaths in 40 years and about 100 captures, and you STILL say that the method is unsafe??? You are clearly biased agains this method and against any scientific method, judging from your words. Finally, you are still using that SINGLE case of the Ranthambore male that get aggressive toward humans after collaring, but according with your words, this is INCORRECT, check your own post:

PCTS say: "I'd be carefull using singular examples as rules."
Source: http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-are-tige...44#pid6044

So, are you cold or are you hot? You contradict yourself.

Third: Now you are delirious, aliens and collars? Don't you have a better example. Funny words:
PCKTS say: "But even if no tigers ever died, its still wrong"
Wrong by WHO??? Only for you, because several tigers had been collared (and will be collared) and lived a perfectly normal life (Sunquist, 1981, Karanth, 2003), they hunt, they mate, they fight, they have done ALL the normal things that a tiger actually do. You are been paranoic again with this kind of comments. And of course, animals ARE different than us, even the smarts animals can't be compare with a human, there is a difference between us. Be careful in these comments, a dog don't have the same dignity that a human been. Hope you don't twist my words in this last and specific issue here too.

Don't come here and say its a " fallacy from me" when you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic. I guarantee you that I have seen photos of sumatran tigers that was absolutely taken by a photographer and not a camera trap. So you are wrong when you try and say that "ALL photos taken are by camera traps".

"Wrong by WHO??? Only for you, because several tigers had been collared (and will be collared) and lived a perfectly normal life"
Wrong for the TIGERS! That is why we are here, for the animals, is it not?
You have a harsh way of thinking if you only care about humans and not the well being of these animals. So while SOME tigers have lived "normal" lives after being collared, others have Died, attacked humans, died due to stress related dieses etc. A lot more than 2, that is for sure.

Gaute, I don't care to debate this with you any more. You're not going to change whatever view you have, thats fine. But I certainly will not change my stance on the larger concern for a tigers well being over a humans inquiry. So I think this has run its course between us.

Roflcopters · 11-05-2014, 04:39 AM

Indian wild life officials make it very clear that radio-collaring is essential for the survival of tigers.

Nagpur: Even as the maiden experiment by the state forest department to radio-collar two tigers in Tadoba-Andhari Tiger Reserve (TATR) has been hailed by experts in the field, it is high time such research is carried out outside protected areas (PAs) where wildcats are becoming victims of man-animal conflict.

After TOI report on October 20, a section of readers claimed that looking into the death of a tigress T4 due to radio collar infection in Panna tiger reserve in MP on September 18, it is a waste of money to place satellite collars on tigers. However, wildlife experts dubbed these comments as immature.

Conservationist Prafulla Bhamburkar says such research is needed more outside Tadoba landscape where 17 villagers have been mauled to death by big carnivores this year. 'Pombhurna tiger, which was shot dead, could have been saved had it been radio-collared," he added. PCCF (wildlife) Sarjan Bhagat admits that tigers outside PAs need better protection but says as of now there is no proposal to collar them. "We will moot a separate proposal," he said.

Radio collar is one of the best tools to understand tiger behaviour, predation, population and ecology. Not a single tiger died of radio-collaring, because it is just 1% body weight of that species, say experts. If we want to save a species at its population level, we need to understand its ecology using reliable tools.

Panna field director RS Murthy denied that T4 died of collar infection. "The tigress died naturally due to some internal health problem. It will be known once we get clinical reports from respective agencies," Murthy said.

"Radio collars are the best help managers with least invasive observations of any mega carnivore. We are doing it for last five years," Murthy added.

In 2009, a wildlife intelligence report had blamed tiger deaths in Panna on their 'radio collaring', raising questions over the projects to conserve the animal throughout the country.

However, Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS) director Asad Rahmani says it all depends on who did it and for what purpose? Studying animal movement and ecology by radio-collaring/satellite tracking are well-known methods used all over the world.

"New tracking technology is giving us remarkable results about animal behaviour and movement. So, it is wrong to say that radio-collaring per se is bad. If there is a purpose and clear objective, there is nothing wrong in radio-collaring," said Rahmani.

"It is wrong to say that Panna tigress died due to radio-collaring. If this is the reason, why other animals do not die? Every major operation on human being has some risk. So, should we stop life-saving operations due to the small risk involved?" said Rahmani.

In November 2012, the state wildlife wing had for the first time placed a radio collar on a rescued tigress which was released post treatment at Tass near Bhiwapur. "The collar gave valuable insights into the secretive world of big cats in the wild. Radio-tracking actually helps curb menace of poaching since tiger movement is constantly monitored and the ones which stray or are killed are immediately noticed," says wildlife biologist Vidya Athreya, who placed the collar on the Tass tigress.

Athreya says there will always be accidents but with more and more such scientific activities happening, it will also allow us to improve our skills. "It is likely that the Panna tigress had a wound on her neck which the collar did not allow for healing," Athreya says.

Athreya adds that in a place like Africa, where visibility is good and there are not as many people as in India, you can drive up to the animal, see it clearly and then intervene if the animal has a problem with the collar etc.

"But if you ask me about the scene 10 years back and now, things with respect to understanding, management and the use of new tools have really improved in Maharashtra. I think this is a very good thing," Athreya said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...912773.cms

just thought i'd add it in there, the report is from two weeks ago.

GuateGojira · 11-05-2014, 10:10 AM

(11-03-2014, 11:27 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Don't come here and say its a " fallacy from me" when you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic. I guarantee you that I have seen photos of sumatran tigers that was absolutely taken by a photographer and not a camera trap. So you are wrong when you try and say that "ALL photos taken are by camera traps".

"Wrong by WHO??? Only for you, because several tigers had been collared (and will be collared) and lived a perfectly normal life"
Wrong for the TIGERS! That is why we are here, for the animals, is it not?
You have a harsh way of thinking if you only care about humans and not the well being of these animals. So while SOME tigers have lived "normal" lives after being collared, others have Died, attacked humans, died due to stress related dieses etc. A lot more than 2, that is for sure.

Gaute, I don't care to debate this with you any more. You're not going to change whatever view you have, thats fine. But I certainly will not change my stance on the larger concern for a tigers well being over a humans inquiry. So I think this has run its course between us.

1. Sumatra is NOT India, there are not photographers there, nor tourists or anything like that, you should know Sumatra before to make such comments. All pictures of Sumatran tigers in the wild are from camera traps.

2. That is for sure???? Where is the data to backup this lie? Only LESS than four tigers have died in 40 YEARS do collaring in the Indian Subcontinent, all accidents!!! It is not wrong for tigers and to say that I only care about humans and not about animals is just an stupidity from your part. You have the harsh way of thinking, attacking all the posters that present different ideas than you. You are now acting against ALL scientific work done in all this time and this is an attack to the very soul of this place too. There is not a single death of tigers in the Indian subcontinent caused by "stress", you are now creating lies about something that have NOT happened. You have crossed the line, creating myths and attacking the science in such an intense way just because your "hippie" mind can't accept that collar are not bad for tigers in ANY way.

3. I will offer you ONE chance to apologize about all these calumnies, specially about this:
Pckts said: "you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic"
Are you challenge me??? Are you SURE about this??? Really sure??? You know what is coming now. The waves that I create can't be stooped, you should know that already. You want to suffer like many hard-core-lion-fans in the past of AVA???

I await for your answer.

peter · 11-05-2014, 08:09 PM

PC AND GUATE,

I created this thread. It is dedicated to wild tigers, not wild debates. The debate on collars ends here. We want to read good information on tigers. Fights and bets on the outcome are not included.

As for the way the debate is conducted. Both of you are passionate and interested in tigers. For this reason, you should try to cooperate in order to get to a result. A no-result also is a result. It would confirm the outcome of the debate on collars in India (see the last post of Copters).

A bit of advice to finish with. When (hidden or indirect) insult and (hidden or indirect) threats replace arguments, the debate has ended. In my opinion, it has. Take a break to think things over. When you are able to debate using arguments only, continue in the debate section. Guate, as a mod, can creat a collar-thread any time.

PC. I invested time in a recent pm. I told you about the intention of a debate and the disadvantages of fundamentalism. I also told you I will defend mods at all times, even if they too let it go.

Guate. I had a tiny debate with PC on collars and a few other things recently. He didn't agree with my story and I wasn't able to find the arguments needed to counter him. I still do not agree, but agreed to disagree. For this reason, the debate was concluded. Without any problems.

Here's the essence of the debate again: radio-collars have to be considered as intrusive and inproductive vs. radio-collars are needed to learn and manage in a period in which tigers are threatened by loss of habitat and poachers. Established facts, logic and arguments only. Good luck.

Pckts · 11-06-2014, 04:14 AM

(11-05-2014, 04:39 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Indian wild life officials make it very clear that radio-collaring is essential for the survival of tigers.

Nagpur: Even as the maiden experiment by the state forest department to radio-collar two tigers in Tadoba-Andhari Tiger Reserve (TATR) has been hailed by experts in the field, it is high time such research is carried out outside protected areas (PAs) where wildcats are becoming victims of man-animal conflict.

After TOI report on October 20, a section of readers claimed that looking into the death of a tigress T4 due to radio collar infection in Panna tiger reserve in MP on September 18, it is a waste of money to place satellite collars on tigers. However, wildlife experts dubbed these comments as immature.

Conservationist Prafulla Bhamburkar says such research is needed more outside Tadoba landscape where 17 villagers have been mauled to death by big carnivores this year. 'Pombhurna tiger, which was shot dead, could have been saved had it been radio-collared," he added. PCCF (wildlife) Sarjan Bhagat admits that tigers outside PAs need better protection but says as of now there is no proposal to collar them. "We will moot a separate proposal," he said.

Radio collar is one of the best tools to understand tiger behaviour, predation, population and ecology. Not a single tiger died of radio-collaring, because it is just 1% body weight of that species, say experts. If we want to save a species at its population level, we need to understand its ecology using reliable tools.

Panna field director RS Murthy denied that T4 died of collar infection. "The tigress died naturally due to some internal health problem. It will be known once we get clinical reports from respective agencies," Murthy said.

"Radio collars are the best help managers with least invasive observations of any mega carnivore. We are doing it for last five years," Murthy added.

In 2009, a wildlife intelligence report had blamed tiger deaths in Panna on their 'radio collaring', raising questions over the projects to conserve the animal throughout the country.

However, Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS) director Asad Rahmani says it all depends on who did it and for what purpose? Studying animal movement and ecology by radio-collaring/satellite tracking are well-known methods used all over the world.

"New tracking technology is giving us remarkable results about animal behaviour and movement. So, it is wrong to say that radio-collaring per se is bad. If there is a purpose and clear objective, there is nothing wrong in radio-collaring," said Rahmani.

"It is wrong to say that Panna tigress died due to radio-collaring. If this is the reason, why other animals do not die? Every major operation on human being has some risk. So, should we stop life-saving operations due to the small risk involved?" said Rahmani.

In November 2012, the state wildlife wing had for the first time placed a radio collar on a rescued tigress which was released post treatment at Tass near Bhiwapur. "The collar gave valuable insights into the secretive world of big cats in the wild. Radio-tracking actually helps curb menace of poaching since tiger movement is constantly monitored and the ones which stray or are killed are immediately noticed," says wildlife biologist Vidya Athreya, who placed the collar on the Tass tigress.

Athreya says there will always be accidents but with more and more such scientific activities happening, it will also allow us to improve our skills. "It is likely that the Panna tigress had a wound on her neck which the collar did not allow for healing," Athreya says.

Athreya adds that in a place like Africa, where visibility is good and there are not as many people as in India, you can drive up to the animal, see it clearly and then intervene if the animal has a problem with the collar etc.

"But if you ask me about the scene 10 years back and now, things with respect to understanding, management and the use of new tools have really improved in Maharashtra. I think this is a very good thing," Athreya said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...912773.cms

just thought i'd add it in there, the report is from two weeks ago.

A couple of things,
Forrest Department is not Scientist or Biologists. They are hired by the Tiger park and are a private service. They would wan't tigers to wear collars since its already been showed that the collared tigers are beign tracked and ran out by VIP tourists to guarantee a sighting.

There is already a conclusive study that the Tigress died due to infection from a wound from the collar.

There have also been Collared tigers who have been poached same with other collared animals. So obviously a collar my offer a little protection it still isn't fool proof. And lets not forget that the collared animals are usually in protected parks that have heavy tourism. Which is far more protection than animals in other areas that are not protected.

Now lets look at how many animals have now been studyed like never before because of camera traps
http://www.wwfindia.org/?7322/Camera-tra...ross-India

*This image is copyright of its original author

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Camera traps capture exciting animal behaviour across India
0 1 51

Posted on 22 May 2012 | 5 Comments
The utility of camera traps
Camera traps are invaluable, non-invasive and cost effective tools that provide wildlife researchers with photographic data that can be used to estimate density and abundance of a specific species, proof of presence of a species in an area and trends in population change due to anthropogenic pressures, among other data. Such data derived from the systematic and scientific use of camera traps help conservationists in taking management and policy decisions.

In India, camera traps are well known as the tools used for the science based All India Tiger Estimation Exercise conducted by NTCA/WII with support from WWF and other NGOs. What is not so well known though is that camera traps are also very good at offering insights into the behaviour of wild animals and revealing new distribution records for a species.
WWF-India’s use of camera traps across India
Over the past few years, WWF-India in partnership with NTCA and different state forest departments has been deploying camera traps across India towards estimating tiger numbers, estimating the presence of specific species, and understanding human-wildlife conflict.

These camera traps used in varied and diverse habitats, from the forbidding heights of Kargil to the dense forests of Western Ghats, have revealed hitherto seldom seen behaviour and activity of wild animals.
Leopard-Hyena fight
For the past one and half years, WWF-India has been monitoring cattle kills by large carnivores in the critical Kanha Pench corridor forests of Central India using camera traps as part of a project to provide interim relief to local communities to reduce retaliatory poisoning of tigers and leopards.

These camera traps captured a rarely seen and perhaps never before photographed scene in India – a hyena (Hyaena hyaena) and a leopard (Panthera pardus fusca) fighting over a cattle kill, probably made by a tiger. The photograph provides an insight into the complex ecological interactions between carnivores and shows how scavengers utilize a kill made by a large carnivore, signifying the intricate food chain.
Changeable Hawk-Eagle (Dark morph)
Moving eastwards, camera traps setup near a waterhole in the Sunderbans forests captured an uncommon dark morph variant of the Changeable Hawk-Eagle (Spizaetus cirrhatus). While the eagle is easily seen across India’s forests the dark morph has very scarce sightings.
Fishing cat with prey
A camera trap in the Kaziranga National Park in Assam captured one night a fishing cat (Prionailurus viverrinus) coming back from a successful hunt with its favourite prey - a fish. The fishing cat, as their name suggests, are skilled swimmers and excellent at catching fish and this capture aptly confirms their nocturnal hunting abilities.
Clouded leopard
Elsewhere in Assam, camera traps photographed one of the lesser-known members of the cat family, the clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa) in Manas National Park. The camera traps documented a good density of these cats from this park, a density exceeding that of the tigers in Manas!
Eurasian magpies
The far north of India, Kargil to be more precise, is snow leopard country. This mysterious denizen of the heights sometimes comes down during the lean winter months from his high altitude haunts to hunt livestock. The kill, after the snow leopard has had its fill and left, attracts a host of scavengers like the Eurasian magpies (Pica pica). This capture from Kargil shows a flock of these magpies congregating at the site of the kill (not visible in photo) to feed on the carcass demonstrating the complex food web that interlinks large carnivores and birds in such high altitude areas where food sources can be scarce during winters.
Asiatic black bear
The Senchal Wildlife Sanctuary located in Darjeeling is home to a sizable population of the Asiatic black bear (Ursus thibetanus). The aim of the camera trapping exercise here was to study the distribution patterns of the Asiatic black bear and analyse its habitat as well as determine the scale and tendency of human-bear conflict. The distribution patterns of the bears determined from the camera trap captures would help in reducing human-bear conflict in the area by undertaking plantation of more fruiting trees in areas known to be frequented by these bears, thereby reducing chances of them venturing out of the sanctuary into human areas in search of food. This capture shows a Asiatic black bear and her cub foraging for food inside the Sanctuary indicating that healthy breeding is taking place in the Sanctuary.
Rusty-spotted cat
The camera trapping exercise in the forests of Pilibhit revealed a completely new distribution record for the rusty spotted cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus) in the Terai Arc landscape. The previously known distribution record for this cat is from the states of south and central India and parts of western India. In this case, the camera traps discovered a hitherto unknown distribution record for the smallest wild cat.
Hyena kill
This camera trap shows a Hyena scavenging a chital, probably a kill made by a larger carnivore. Captured in the Sathyamangalam forests of Tamil Nadu, an area proposed to be declared a tiger reserve, this photo is indicative of the good density of hyenas found in this region. Overall, one of the best populations of hyena in India is found in this region, a crucial connecting link between the Eastern and Western Ghats.

As these captures amply demonstrate camera traps can, apart from generating baseline data about presence and abundance of wildlife, also provide valuable insights to wildlife researchers about the behaviour of wild animals and aid conservationists in implementing effective conservation management plans.

For more information, please contact:
Anil Cherukupalli
Senior Communications Officer
WWF-India
+91 11 4150 4783
Email: [email protected]

Pckts · 11-06-2014, 04:25 AM

(11-05-2014, 09:31 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Relax, Guate -
I already told you not to waste your time on this.

You have lost lot of time in this debate, You may have created good thread and some good blog.

Sometime ignorance is best way to follow.

Pckts:bYou must follow some rules.

This is request not to debate without any proof or backup.

Don't see how I am not following the rules?
I am responding to claims with evidence and accounts while not using any bad language or in a argumentative way. Notice who is the person calling names here, its not me. Peter and I had a discussion on debating and I am pretty sure that I am following the guidelines used. I am attacking no body, insulting no one, I am contributing to a debate that, Copters, Peter, Gaute and tigerluver have all discussed.
Tigerluver created a thread for this but Gaute deleted it. So I'm not sure what you want me to do?
If accounts are presented, I should be able to rebuttal with other factual accounts, especially if claims are made with out actual backing. So if somebody says that ALL photos of sumatran tigers are taken by photo graph, and I don't agree, whats the harm.

So when Gaute says this
"Pckts said: "you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic"
Are you challenge me??? Are you SURE about this??? Really sure??? You know what is coming now. The waves that I create can't be stooped, you should know that already. You want to suffer like many hard-core-lion-fans in the past of AVA???"

My response is,
Yes @Gaute, I am challenging your claim. I am now offering photographs taken in sumatra, some with the photographers names attached

http://www.arkive.org/tiger/panthera-tig...G4089.html

So if you disagree, I suggest you ask
Gerald Cubbitt
or
Veronique Savigney
or
Mark Lienfield
or
Alain Compost
etc...
even
Alan Ranbowitz did a documentory there
http://www.panthera.org/node/2883

GuateGojira · 11-06-2014, 10:05 AM

(11-06-2014, 04:14 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: A couple of things,
Forrest Department is not Scientist or Biologists. They are hired by the Tiger park and are a private service. They would wan't tigers to wear collars since its already been showed that the collared tigers are beign tracked and ran out by VIP tourists to guarantee a sighting.

There is already a conclusive study that the Tigress died due to infection from a wound from the collar.

There have also been Collared tigers who have been poached same with other collared animals. So obviously a collar my offer a little protection it still isn't fool proof. And lets not forget that the collared animals are usually in protected parks that have heavy tourism. Which is far more protection than animals in other areas that are not protected.

Now lets look at how many animals have now been studyed like never before because of camera traps
http://www.wwfindia.org/?7322/Camera-tra...ross-India

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Blogs

Camera traps capture exciting animal behaviour across India
0 1 51

Posted on 22 May 2012 | 5 Comments
The utility of camera traps
Camera traps are invaluable, non-invasive and cost effective tools that provide wildlife researchers with photographic data that can be used to estimate density and abundance of a specific species, proof of presence of a species in an area and trends in population change due to anthropogenic pressures, among other data. Such data derived from the systematic and scientific use of camera traps help conservationists in taking management and policy decisions.

In India, camera traps are well known as the tools used for the science based All India Tiger Estimation Exercise conducted by NTCA/WII with support from WWF and other NGOs. What is not so well known though is that camera traps are also very good at offering insights into the behaviour of wild animals and revealing new distribution records for a species.
WWF-India’s use of camera traps across India
Over the past few years, WWF-India in partnership with NTCA and different state forest departments has been deploying camera traps across India towards estimating tiger numbers, estimating the presence of specific species, and understanding human-wildlife conflict.

These camera traps used in varied and diverse habitats, from the forbidding heights of Kargil to the dense forests of Western Ghats, have revealed hitherto seldom seen behaviour and activity of wild animals.
Leopard-Hyena fight
For the past one and half years, WWF-India has been monitoring cattle kills by large carnivores in the critical Kanha Pench corridor forests of Central India using camera traps as part of a project to provide interim relief to local communities to reduce retaliatory poisoning of tigers and leopards.

These camera traps captured a rarely seen and perhaps never before photographed scene in India – a hyena (Hyaena hyaena) and a leopard (Panthera pardus fusca) fighting over a cattle kill, probably made by a tiger. The photograph provides an insight into the complex ecological interactions between carnivores and shows how scavengers utilize a kill made by a large carnivore, signifying the intricate food chain.
Changeable Hawk-Eagle (Dark morph)
Moving eastwards, camera traps setup near a waterhole in the Sunderbans forests captured an uncommon dark morph variant of the Changeable Hawk-Eagle (Spizaetus cirrhatus). While the eagle is easily seen across India’s forests the dark morph has very scarce sightings.
Fishing cat with prey
A camera trap in the Kaziranga National Park in Assam captured one night a fishing cat (Prionailurus viverrinus) coming back from a successful hunt with its favourite prey - a fish. The fishing cat, as their name suggests, are skilled swimmers and excellent at catching fish and this capture aptly confirms their nocturnal hunting abilities.
Clouded leopard
Elsewhere in Assam, camera traps photographed one of the lesser-known members of the cat family, the clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa) in Manas National Park. The camera traps documented a good density of these cats from this park, a density exceeding that of the tigers in Manas!
Eurasian magpies
The far north of India, Kargil to be more precise, is snow leopard country. This mysterious denizen of the heights sometimes comes down during the lean winter months from his high altitude haunts to hunt livestock. The kill, after the snow leopard has had its fill and left, attracts a host of scavengers like the Eurasian magpies (Pica pica). This capture from Kargil shows a flock of these magpies congregating at the site of the kill (not visible in photo) to feed on the carcass demonstrating the complex food web that interlinks large carnivores and birds in such high altitude areas where food sources can be scarce during winters.
Asiatic black bear
The Senchal Wildlife Sanctuary located in Darjeeling is home to a sizable population of the Asiatic black bear (Ursus thibetanus). The aim of the camera trapping exercise here was to study the distribution patterns of the Asiatic black bear and analyse its habitat as well as determine the scale and tendency of human-bear conflict. The distribution patterns of the bears determined from the camera trap captures would help in reducing human-bear conflict in the area by undertaking plantation of more fruiting trees in areas known to be frequented by these bears, thereby reducing chances of them venturing out of the sanctuary into human areas in search of food. This capture shows a Asiatic black bear and her cub foraging for food inside the Sanctuary indicating that healthy breeding is taking place in the Sanctuary.
Rusty-spotted cat
The camera trapping exercise in the forests of Pilibhit revealed a completely new distribution record for the rusty spotted cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus) in the Terai Arc landscape. The previously known distribution record for this cat is from the states of south and central India and parts of western India. In this case, the camera traps discovered a hitherto unknown distribution record for the smallest wild cat.
Hyena kill
This camera trap shows a Hyena scavenging a chital, probably a kill made by a larger carnivore. Captured in the Sathyamangalam forests of Tamil Nadu, an area proposed to be declared a tiger reserve, this photo is indicative of the good density of hyenas found in this region. Overall, one of the best populations of hyena in India is found in this region, a crucial connecting link between the Eastern and Western Ghats.

As these captures amply demonstrate camera traps can, apart from generating baseline data about presence and abundance of wildlife, also provide valuable insights to wildlife researchers about the behaviour of wild animals and aid conservationists in implementing effective conservation management plans.

For more information, please contact:
Anil Cherukupalli
Senior Communications Officer
WWF-India
+91 11 4150 4783
Email: [email protected]

Huge mistake here.

Did you take the time to READ what you have post? Let's see:
"The utility of camera traps: Camera traps are invaluable, non-invasive and cost effective tools that provide wildlife researchers with photographic data that can be used to estimate density and abundance of a specific species, proof of presence of a species in an area and trends in population change due to anthropogenic pressures, among other data. Such data derived from the systematic and scientific use of camera traps help conservationists in taking management and policy decisions."

Ohhhh, density, abundance and proof of presences of species. There it say NOTHING about biology, ecology, sociology, intraespecific relations in the LONG therm. THIS is the weakness of the camera traps, you can see only single events.

About the examples, ALL are SINGLE events, that although valuable, they are QUALITATIVE data, which means that they are known to exist but we can't know if these are the exception or the rule. This type of accounts, although important, have the same value than the old records from hunters in the field.

In other words, camera traps are useful, like a second choice, to know the behavior of animals in those particular cases where the camera take the picture. But to know the real causes of that behavior, you need to capture a relative good sample of those species and follow them to understand the real cause of that event. Cameras are just the START, but the radiocollars are transmitters in the smaller animals, are the next logic and necessary steep. Conservation per se is meaningless if you don't know that are you conserving.

Just to take an example, how do you know if the leopards normally fight for the kills against hyenas? You have only ONE event, you can't make any inference about it, just to accept the case. In fact, they don't even know if the kill was made by a tiger, the leopard or the hyena itself.

READ what you post, all these are single events, what information can we get from them, except that we would know that they happen?

GuateGojira · 11-06-2014, 10:25 AM

(11-06-2014, 04:25 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Don't see how I am not following the rules?
I am responding to claims with evidence and accounts while not using any bad language or in a argumentative way. Notice who is the person calling names here, its not me. Peter and I had a discussion on debating and I am pretty sure that I am following the guidelines used. I am attacking no body, insulting no one, I am contributing to a debate that, Copters, Peter, Gaute and tigerluver have all discussed.
Tigerluver created a thread for this but Gaute deleted it. So I'm not sure what you want me to do?
If accounts are presented, I should be able to rebuttal with other factual accounts, especially if claims are made with out actual backing. So if somebody says that ALL photos of sumatran tigers are taken by photo graph, and I don't agree, whats the harm.

So when Gaute says this
"Pckts said: "you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic"
Are you challenge me??? Are you SURE about this??? Really sure??? You know what is coming now. The waves that I create can't be stooped, you should know that already. You want to suffer like many hard-core-lion-fans in the past of AVA???"

My response is,
Yes @Gaute, I am challenging your claim. I am now offering photographs taken in sumatra, some with the photographers names attached

http://www.arkive.org/tiger/panthera-tig...G4089.html

So if you disagree, I suggest you ask
Gerald Cubbitt
or
Veronique Savigney
or
Mark Lienfield
or
Alain Compost
etc...
even
Alan Ranbowitz did a documentory there
http://www.panthera.org/node/2883

What have to be the documentary of Alan Rabinowitz here? They don't even take direct pictures of tigers in the wild. The program is about CAPTURED wild tigers in recovery and plans to reintroduce them in the wild. Good thing to know that those tigers were captured and radiocollared in a safe way, proving again that scientists like Rabinowitz use this method, he personally use it in Thailand with three leopards and with several jaguars in Belize (there are two books about this).

Other thing, the pictures of Sumatran tigers in Arkive.org are not ALL from the wild, but from captive specimens, sadly. There is one single documentary with a few images of a wild Sumatran tiger that I can remember, but all modern pictures came from camera traps in the Island. In that video, we can see a young male Sumatran tiger running to the water and hunting a fish, and all the pictures in Arkive labeled as "wild" in Sumatra (five in the row), came from that single film. In this case, it is one single film with several pictures form it. This film is famous as is normally used in many tiger documentaries. So again, investigate a little more about the origin of the pictures.

Finally, about the challenge, you ask it. I have not plans to stop this time. However, I am 100% that you already know all the data, and although I don't know why you want it again, you will be proved wrong, just like your futile attempt to prove that white tigers cannot live in the wild.

Await for my next post, this will be EPIC!

Edit: as there is a new topic, I will post the information there, in order to leave this topic in peace. Here is the link:
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-best-mea...97#pid6097

Enjoy the show, because this is what would happen, a simple "show", thanks to Pckts and his calumnies on the real scientists.

tigerluver · 11-06-2014, 10:20 PM

Gear on animals, an analogy:

On whether equipment bothers animals, back to birds. US laws mandate leg banding of all captive exotics. This band is often placed on a leg when the chick is very young. These birds grow into adulthood with it. So does this band bother or endanger the bird? Here are my observations:
The earlier the band is placed, the more tolerant the specimen is of it, often to the point it forgets it for most of the day. But, even birds who were banded when they were unconcious notice their band once or twice a day during grooming. A little chewing takes place as they try to reach the patch of skin underneath the band. The band moves normally, so they can normally lick the skin under most of the band by moving it. Birds don't seem too bothered by the band, but I've seen attempts to pull it off once in a blue moon even after having it for essentially its entire life.
On danger of the band. Normally, if the right size, bands aren't high risk. Although, freak accidents of bands getting stuck on items and the specimen undergoing serious injury isn't as uncommon as one would want. I personally remove all bands from my birds to account for the small possibility of freak accidents.
Now how does the bird react to band removal. Most go momentarily wide-eyed seeing the free foot, then licking of the foot takes place for a while. Then back to normal birdy life. The birds do seem to remember in the early days after removal and seem relieved. Then the comfort thresholds changes and the band is a thing of the past and the lack of it is no longer a relief.
So all in all, the specimen is concious of the band, but more often than not ignores it most of the day. Bands run a small risk of freak accidents. Removal of the band shows some relief in the bird, but the problem wasn't so problematic that the bird was in serious stress anyhow.

Now substitute tigers for birds. Most mechanisms are the same, make your conclusions.

Continue all debate here.

Pckts · 11-07-2014, 11:29 PM

(11-06-2014, 10:25 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(11-06-2014, 04:25 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Don't see how I am not following the rules?
I am responding to claims with evidence and accounts while not using any bad language or in a argumentative way. Notice who is the person calling names here, its not me. Peter and I had a discussion on debating and I am pretty sure that I am following the guidelines used. I am attacking no body, insulting no one, I am contributing to a debate that, Copters, Peter, Gaute and tigerluver have all discussed.
Tigerluver created a thread for this but Gaute deleted it. So I'm not sure what you want me to do?
If accounts are presented, I should be able to rebuttal with other factual accounts, especially if claims are made with out actual backing. So if somebody says that ALL photos of sumatran tigers are taken by photo graph, and I don't agree, whats the harm.

So when Gaute says this
"Pckts said: "you have no actual data to back a single claim on this topic"
Are you challenge me??? Are you SURE about this??? Really sure??? You know what is coming now. The waves that I create can't be stooped, you should know that already. You want to suffer like many hard-core-lion-fans in the past of AVA???"

My response is,
Yes @Gaute, I am challenging your claim. I am now offering photographs taken in sumatra, some with the photographers names attached

http://www.arkive.org/tiger/panthera-tig...G4089.html

So if you disagree, I suggest you ask
Gerald Cubbitt
or
Veronique Savigney
or
Mark Lienfield
or
Alain Compost
etc...
even
Alan Ranbowitz did a documentory there
http://www.panthera.org/node/2883

What have to be the documentary of Alan Rabinowitz here? They don't even take direct pictures of tigers in the wild. The program is about CAPTURED wild tigers in recovery and plans to reintroduce them in the wild. Good thing to know that those tigers were captured and radiocollared in a safe way, proving again that scientists like Rabinowitz use this method, he personally use it in Thailand with three leopards and with several jaguars in Belize (there are two books about this).

Other thing, the pictures of Sumatran tigers in Arkive.org are not ALL from the wild, but from captive specimens, sadly. There is one single documentary with a few images of a wild Sumatran tiger that I can remember, but all modern pictures came from camera traps in the Island. In that video, we can see a young male Sumatran tiger running to the water and hunting a fish, and all the pictures in Arkive labeled as "wild" in Sumatra (five in the row), came from that single film. In this case, it is one single film with several pictures form it. This film is famous as is normally used in many tiger documentaries. So again, investigate a little more about the origin of the pictures.

Finally, about the challenge, you ask it. I have not plans to stop this time. However, I am 100% that you already know all the data, and although I don't know why you want it again, you will be proved wrong, just like your futile attempt to prove that white tigers cannot live in the wild.

Await for my next post, this will be EPIC!

Edit: as there is a new topic, I will post the information there, in order to leave this topic in peace. Here is the link:
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-best-mea...97#pid6097

Enjoy the show, because this is what would happen, a simple "show", thanks to Pckts and his calumnies on the real scientists.

The phots taken are absolutely from Sumatra, in the wild and by photographers.
Technically, Dr. Alan released Wild Tigers back, so to be fair, he also captured wild tigers in sumatra on film.

Now, I did'nt use it for Colars, as many scientists use collars and the data collected is use full in some way. But nothing collected is any more use full than Camera trap data.
Hence why Dr. Alan only used camera traps to find the corridor in Bhutan and specifically used the camera trap footage to get it protected.
Sanctuary Asia November 2The highly elusive and nocturnal nature of hyaenas makes it nearly impossible to sit waiting for the animals to show up. The only practical way to estimate their numbers is to use remotely-triggered camera traps to photograph different individuals.

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