There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
10-19-2018, 07:12 AM( This post was last modified: 10-19-2018, 07:17 AM by Wolverine )
(10-18-2018, 08:58 PM)peter Wrote: Himalayan male bears average 130-140 kg., but individual variation is pronounced. Large males can reach 180-200 kg., if not more. Males of that size do not fear tigers and apparently are able to hunt as well.
Himalayan black bears despite being smaller in size than brown bears have sharper claws because they spend more than 50% of their time on the trees and are excellent climbers.
Cases of aggressive scavenging displayed by some brown bears towards tigers in the Russian Far East could help us to understand better the behavior of the ancient short faced bear Arctodus simus towards other large predators in prehistoric North America - like smilodon, American lion and dire wolves. There is hyphotesys that this gigantic prehistoric bear weighting up to 1,1 tons actually was habituated scavenger and existed "on the shoulders" of other predators regularly displacing them from their kills due to its intimidating size and strength. Probably American paleontologists should study trophical realations between the brown bears and the tigers in the Russian Ussuriland to understand better what was happening in plains of prehistoric North America.
We also don't know why some brown bears scavenge the kills of Amur tigers while other bears (probably majority) do not do this.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes, interactions between the bears and wolf packs are not less interesting than tiger-bear relations, unfourtunately there is no so big interest towards wolves in this forum. Last week @Rage2277 posted a few fresh documentary cases showing that wolf packs had recently killed several American black bears in Ontario and other places, despite this is hardly to be believed. A few wonderful films were also shot by NatGeoWild in Finland about brown bear-wolf relations. Maybe Shadow could tell us (in wolf threat) where exactly in Finland were shot this films and why Finland is so suitable place for filming of big predators.
10-19-2018, 01:47 PM( This post was last modified: 10-19-2018, 07:41 PM by Shadow )
(10-19-2018, 07:12 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(10-18-2018, 08:58 PM)peter Wrote: Himalayan male bears average 130-140 kg., but individual variation is pronounced. Large males can reach 180-200 kg., if not more. Males of that size do not fear tigers and apparently are able to hunt as well.
Himalayan black bears despite being smaller in size than brown bears have sharper claws because they spend more than 50% of their time on the trees and are excellent climbers.
Cases of aggressive scavenging displayed by some brown bears towards tigers in the Russian Far East could help us to understand better the behavior of the ancient short faced bear Arctodus simus towards other large predators in prehistoric North America - like smilodon, American lion and dire wolves. There is hyphotesys that this gigantic prehistoric bear weighting up to 1,1 tons actually was habituated scavenger and existed "on the shoulders" of other predators regularly displacing them from their kills due to its intimidating size and strength. Probably American paleontologists should study trophical realations between the brown bears and the tigers in the Russian Ussuriland to understand better what was happening in plains of prehistoric North America.
We also don't know why some brown bears scavenge the kills of Amur tigers while other bears (probably majority) do not do this.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes, interactions between the bears and wolf packs are not less interesting than tiger-bear relations, unfourtunately there is no so big interest towards wolves in this forum. Last week @Rage2277 posted a few fresh documentary cases showing that wolf packs had recently killed several American black bears in Ontario and other places, despite this is hardly to be believed. A few wonderful films were also shot by NatGeoWild in Finland about brown bear-wolf relations. Maybe Shadow could tell us (in wolf threat) where exactly in Finland were shot this films and why Finland is so suitable place for filming of big predators.
I can check later what I can find about locations. What comes to suitability of Finland. Well, we have good knowledge where these animals can be found, a lot of experienced people what comes to our nature and wildlife. So it is easy to figure out where best chances are, in many such areas relatively good visibility too, so possibility to film good quality footage also pretty far away of "target" and in that way see natural behavior of animals. Also we have large forests where these animals have possibility to live as they have lived thousands of years. Then again safe enviroment, I mean people who come here to film animals, don´t need to fear about anything else than those animals :) And when you understand better wolves and bears, you actually learn, that you don´t need to fear those either if you know how to move and act in woods.... many good things....
Wolverine if Arctodus was less omnivorous and normally consumed a higher percentage of meat than a grizzly, then perhaps scavenging and displacing other predators was a normal lifestyle for the short-faced giant while being a secondary activity for the brown bear. Your thoughts?
10-19-2018, 09:31 PM( This post was last modified: 10-19-2018, 09:38 PM by Wolverine )
You are right, arctodus was much more carnivorous than modern brown bear, actually as long as I know it was 100% carnivore, same as modern polar bear. So if assume that gigantic short faced bear was an aggressive scavenger and not a hunter (this is only a hypthotesys not a fact) than obviously it needed much more frequently to displace other predators from their kill. Brown bear can eat plants and in order to get the risk to displace a tiger it need to be or too hungry or to fill that particular tiger is weak for some reason. Actually size and weight ratio bear-cat is not so favourable for brown bear. If Ussuri brown bear is only 1,4 heavier than Amur tiger, ancient arctodus was 2,4 times heavier than smilodon or American lion (maximum weight for arctodus - 1,1 tons, 450 kg for smilodon and 400 kg for American lion). So for modern brown bear should be much more risky and dangerous to displace a tiger than was for arctodus to displace a smilodon.
As you can see short faced bear was much larger than smilodon:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Also such a behavior could be possible only if we assume that smilodon and American lion were solitary cats, but if they lived in prides like African lions than this could completely change the game. Unlike zoology in paleontology everything is only theory and speculation.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
I agree and, in fact, I believe that the big Pleistocene cats were a greater threat to the grizzlies than the short-faced bears. A grizzly could more easily avoid the giant bears, but the big cats were hunters. The life of a grizzly she-bear had to have been horrific. Even a big boar grizzly had to be on constant alert.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
I agree and, in fact, I believe that the big Pleistocene cats were a greater threat to the grizzlies than the short-faced bears. A grizzly could more easily avoid the giant bears, but the big cats were hunters. The life of a grizzly she-bear had to have been horrific. Even a big boar grizzly had to be on constant alert.
The Grizzly's life would have been hard, no doubt about it. But they are very smart animals, they could avoid direct confrontations with arctodus , and let us not forget they hibernated during the winter and thus if the American lions, the Arctodus and the dire wolves were tired at the end of the winter, the grizzly reappeared at spring in front of weakened competitors.
And yes, as you say, I believe the big cats (especially American Lions living in prides and being social hunters) were its most direct threat.
May be yes too, the dires wolves if they hunted in very large prides (for exemple more than 50 members, after all it would have been possible before the men intervened) could also play an important role.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
I agree and, in fact, I believe that the big Pleistocene cats were a greater threat to the grizzlies than the short-faced bears. A grizzly could more easily avoid the giant bears, but the big cats were hunters. The life of a grizzly she-bear had to have been horrific. Even a big boar grizzly had to be on constant alert.
The Grizzly's life would have been hard, no doubt about it. But they are very smart animals, they could avoid direct confrontations with arctodus , and let us not forget they hibernated during the winter and thus if the American lions, the Arctodus and the dire wolves were tired at the end of the winter, the grizzly reappeared at spring in front of weakened competitors.
And yes, as you say, I believe the big cats (especially American Lions living in prides and being social hunters) were its most direct threat.
May be yes too, the dires wolves if they hunted in very large prides (for exemple more than 50 members, after all it would have been possible before the men intervened) could also play an important role.
That much, that are you talking about what area. Bears aren´t hibernating in warm areas. For instance grizzlies in California before those were all killed by man didn´t hibernate and they were quite big ones what comes to grizzlies overall.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
I agree and, in fact, I believe that the big Pleistocene cats were a greater threat to the grizzlies than the short-faced bears. A grizzly could more easily avoid the giant bears, but the big cats were hunters. The life of a grizzly she-bear had to have been horrific. Even a big boar grizzly had to be on constant alert.
The Grizzly's life would have been hard, no doubt about it. But they are very smart animals, they could avoid direct confrontations with arctodus , and let us not forget they hibernated during the winter and thus if the American lions, the Arctodus and the dire wolves were tired at the end of the winter, the grizzly reappeared at spring in front of weakened competitors.
And yes, as you say, I believe the big cats (especially American Lions living in prides and being social hunters) were its most direct threat.
May be yes too, the dires wolves if they hunted in very large prides (for exemple more than 50 members, after all it would have been possible before the men intervened) could also play an important role.
That much, that are you talking about what area. Bears aren´t hibernating in warm areas. For instance grizzlies in California before those were all killed by man didn´t hibernate and they were quite big ones what comes to grizzlies overall.
We are speaking about the Pleistocene era, in the North America... I believe that the winter seasons were very cold, weren't they ? Thus, the grizzly hibernated.
About #1835: I also think that arctodus was a pure scavenger and thus, hadn't the capacity to eat something else than meat as the extant brown bears do, it lived its life only by the corpses it discovered with some other opponents around or not. And as for them, among them, I think that 5 or 6 American lions eating their prey could represent a serious problem to deal with.
I agree and, in fact, I believe that the big Pleistocene cats were a greater threat to the grizzlies than the short-faced bears. A grizzly could more easily avoid the giant bears, but the big cats were hunters. The life of a grizzly she-bear had to have been horrific. Even a big boar grizzly had to be on constant alert.
The Grizzly's life would have been hard, no doubt about it. But they are very smart animals, they could avoid direct confrontations with arctodus , and let us not forget they hibernated during the winter and thus if the American lions, the Arctodus and the dire wolves were tired at the end of the winter, the grizzly reappeared at spring in front of weakened competitors.
And yes, as you say, I believe the big cats (especially American Lions living in prides and being social hunters) were its most direct threat.
May be yes too, the dires wolves if they hunted in very large prides (for exemple more than 50 members, after all it would have been possible before the men intervened) could also play an important role.
That much, that are you talking about what area. Bears aren´t hibernating in warm areas. For instance grizzlies in California before those were all killed by man didn´t hibernate and they were quite big ones what comes to grizzlies overall.
We are speaking about the Pleistocene era, in the North America... I believe that the winter seasons were very cold, weren't they ? Thus, the grizzly hibernated.
I haven´t looked closer how climate was at the time in North America. But of course if there was winter all around current North-America, then grizzlies for sure hibernated.
10-20-2018, 07:20 PM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2018, 01:57 PM by Shadow )
(10-18-2018, 08:58 PM)peter Wrote: BROWN BEARS AND HIMALAYAN BLACK BEARS AS HUNTERS
1 - Introduction
In the Russian Far East, tigers and bears have been neighbours for many years. Although we now know a bit more about the way they interact as a result of a number of articles published in the last two decades, these animals still are an enigma in many ways.
Quite many posters interested in tigers and bears seem to think that brown bears are large, but clumsy scavengers unable to defend themselves against a determined professional like a tiger. I don't know how they got to that opinion, but it's far from the truth.
On the internet, you can find many videos of brown bears hunting and killing large mammals. In the hunting department, they do very well. Brown bears hunt in spring in particular. During hibernation, they can lose up to 30% of their weight. In spring they need a lot of energy and the best way to get there fast is protein.
In summer and autumn, bears switch to vegetables. Most of the time, forest products are available. More often than not, there's no need to compete in order to eat. In terms of energy, no big investment is needed. This enables bears to fatten up for hibernation.
Himalayan black bears, about half the size of brown bears in the Russian Far East, also hunt. We seldom hear about them, because brown bears get a lot more airplay. But the Russian Far East has many Himalayan black bears.
As this post is about bears, I initially wanted to use one of the bear threads. I decided against it, because it is of interest for those doing tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. The aim of the post is to show those interested that bears are far from clumsy and defenceless.
2 - Brown bear and wild boar
The video below was posted in 2010 by Grahh, a bear poster involved in nearly all debates about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East in AVA (Yuku, now Tapatalk). The video was taken from a car and shows a brown bear struggling with a wild boar. The bear is seen standing on his hind legs most of the time. This position enabled him to use his weight and front limbs with great effect. Weight, when used in this way, is an effective method to subdue an opponent of similar size.
Those who saw videos of big cats killing large mammals could be a bit surprised about the method used by the bear in that there's no crippling bite. The method used by the bear, however, is effective as well. As you can see, the exhausted wild boar is not able to use his tusks. Bears often use weight and brute force to kill animals.
In spring, brown bears hunt. In spite of their size, they're fast and much more agile than many think. In the video, the bear left the scene before the boar was killed because he was disturbed:
In 1993, 'Tiger, deer and ginseng', written by V. Jankowski, was published (in Russian). This is the book in which the very large Sungari river tiger is discussed. During the debate about the tiger and the bear he had killed a few days before he was shot, Warsaw, Wolverine and WaveRiders posted translations of the part in which the tiger featured. These enabled me to get to a kind of reconstruction. I'll post it soon.
As to the large male Himalayan black bear and the wild boar he killed. When he was out for tigers troubling a small village, V. Jankowski saw a large wild boar in a riverine forest. At least, that's what he thought. He shot the 'boar'. When he went over to see what had happened, he saw he had shot a well-fed male Himalayan black bear. The bear had killed a large male wild boar. It was the first time he saw a wild boar killed by a Himalayan black bear.
Himalayan male bears average 130-140 kg., but individual variation is pronounced. Large males can reach 180-200 kg., if not more. Males of that size do not fear tigers and apparently are able to hunt as well.
Here's Valery Jankowski with a large Himalayan black bear. I don't know if it is the bear mentioned in his book, but it shows that some males can reach a great size:
*This image is copyright of its original author
4 - Finland
The last days I've been talking about tigers and bears with a new member, Shadow. Like Wolverine, he's very well-read in the department of tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. Shadow is from Finland, where they have brown bears. My guess is that brown bears in Finland more or less compare to those in the Russian Far East. They don't have exceptional individuals occasionally seen in the Russian Far East, but adult males not seldom reach 250-300 kg.
In spring, brown bears hunt mammals up to the size of an adult bull moose. Shadow saw the results of severe fights. I invited him to tell us a bit more. You might be surprised about the abilities of brown bears.
Youtube has a lot of videos from Finland. In quite many, bears feature. My advice is to have a good look at them. Chances are you will conclude that adult male brown bears are far from clumsy and defenceless.
In many bear videos you can see wolves. In Finland, brown bears and wolves seem to interact in a different way than in the northwestern part of the US and Canada.
The bear and the wolf in the photograph below (taken by Lasse Rautiainen) seemed to get along. The photograph, to be sure, is not shopped. We're talking about wild animals here. It was posted before, but I decided for a repost:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That photo by Rautiainen is a really good one. And not only one. He tells himself, that he has witnessed same kind of behavior between many bears and wolves. He say, that there is kind of friendship between bears and wolves time to time. Then again also quarrels about food. A pack of wolves can irritate a bear, snapping backside of it and make it leave the carcass. Then again another, maybe more experienced bear, can just lie down on carcass and wolves are practically unable to do anything, but wait, when bear keeps calm and eats there. Sometimes bears try to chase wolves, but of course in that game wolf is just too "slippery", especially if incident happens on swamp area.
But what comes to Amur tigers and brown bears. I also have been curious about their relationship in far east. I also think, that situation is kind of balance there. Tigers do kill brown bears, but what comes to adult bears, then we are talking about females. With male bears victims are young ones, not adults. Adult male brown bear and tiger there are obviously not challenging each others in normal situations. What comes to adult male bear and size, there is one thing to consider too and it would be also interesting to see more close details about weight statistics of bears.
I mean, are in statistics about male bears from what ages. Brown bear is able to breed earlier, but it grows size up to 9-10 years old. It would be interesting to see also statistics about bears, who have reached their individual maximum size what comes to overall size and then average weight of those bears.
Same with tigers too. I think, that many statistics are made in different way(?).
(10-19-2018, 09:31 PM)Wolverine Wrote: You are right, arctodus was much more carnivorous than modern brown bear, actually as long as I know it was 100% carnivore, same as modern polar bear. So if assume that gigantic short faced bear was an aggressive scavenger and not a hunter (this is only a hypthotesys not a fact) than obviously it needed much more frequently to displace other predators from their kill. Brown bear can eat plants and in order to get the risk to displace a tiger it need to be or too hungry or to fill that particular tiger is weak for some reason. Actually size and weight ratio bear-cat is not so favourable for brown bear. If Ussuri brown bear is only 1,4 heavier than Amur tiger, ancient arctodus was 2,4 times heavier than smilodon or American lion (maximum weight for arctodus - 1,1 tons, 450 kg for smilodon and 400 kg for American lion). So for modern brown bear should be much more risky and dangerous to displace a tiger than was for arctodus to displace a smilodon.
As you can see short faced bear was much larger than smilodon:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Also such a behavior could be possible only if we assume that smilodon and American lion were solitary cats, but if they lived in prides like African lions than this could completely change the game. Unlike zoology in paleontology everything is only theory and speculation.
10-21-2018, 12:46 AM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2018, 01:20 AM by Greatearth )
My graduate advisor studied a lot of tigers in Terai. He grew up in Chitwan area. I think the last time he studied tiger was more than 5 years ago, but he did a lot of monitoring and ranger works (people checking tiger by riding elephant). Two of other Master's students were from Bhutan and Bangaldesh. He told me an interesting story, people think Bangladesh was covered with mangrove biome calling "Sundarban", but mangrove requires both salt and freshwater. Sundarban was only existed in western part of Bangladesh since less freshwater compared to center and east parts during the rainy season. Eastern part of the Bangladesh near Myanmar is rainforest I believe. I am not sure of central and southern parts of the Bangladesh. Does anyone knows any information of tiger in Bangladesh outside of Sundarbans? Were they small just like the Sundarban tiger?
I guess boarder of India and Bangladesh in northwest and north home to tiger looked like one in Assam? They are gone in those areas unfortunately.
Anyone have any guess?
10-21-2018, 07:44 AM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2018, 10:54 AM by Vegeta San )
(10-20-2018, 07:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: But what comes to Amur tigers and brown bears. I also have been curious about their relationship in far east. I also think, that situation is kind of balance there. Tigers do kill brown bears, but what comes to adult bears, then we are talking about females. With male bears victims are young ones, not adults. Adult male brown bear and tiger there are obviously not challenging each others in normal situations. What comes to adult male bear and size, there is one thing to consider too and it would be also interesting to see more close details about weight statistics of bears.
Tigers had killed adult male brown bears too in history. There are four different Cases of it, all were legit sources. Ask @peter about this, he'll explain you in detail.
Adult male brown bears are not immune to tiger attacks. But these are very rare, and probably not occurs by modern day smaller and unhealthy Siberian Tigers.
I've read a document from a member called @Vodmeister in his blog from old Carnivora.
Saying that historical ussuri brown bears are also giants on average as compared to modern day ussuri brown bears.
But unfortunately it has been totally changed to new Carnivora and I cannot found that document from his blog.
Well if this is the matter, then why should modern day Siberian Tigers stopped targeting modern day bears (as they're also smaller than historical specimens). Maybe the reason of tigers being unhealthy. I've read a few sources saying that modern day Siberian Tigers are not healthy and barely reach adult size.
This is important, tigers are efficient hunters. They don't need to risk their life against a Adult male Brown bear due to them being unhealthy.
It must be a reason for tigers to stop attacking adult male brown bears. However adult male brown bears are also avoid confrontations with adult male tigers...
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
