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The Great Apes
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 (10-14-2018, 02:00 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Have you ever seen gorilla do it? It is a pity, that that documentary can´t be found. I read too fast your last message and missed that point, that you have seen it. I have seen only gorillas to brake bamboos with using body weight to help it. What comes to gorillas in Congo, I have read from several sources, that leopards do hunt and eat them and able to kill also silverbacks. But that then again is about something else than brute strength, because gorilla anatomy isn´t best possible when it gets clawed, easy to get big cuts and for instance when artery in groin area is cut open, gorilla as any animal die fast. But nowadays there are so few of those animals and conservation programs, so there can be many reasons why not so often reports about killed gorillas. On the other hand in jungle there can be many cases which we will never know. Anyway predation by leopards, what comes to gorillas has happened. Of course most cases have been at night time and gorillas taken by surprise, there are multiple sources about that. But some cases show, that leopard is able to direct confrontation too, even though then fight is fierce. Luckily there are not many cases, I happen to like both animals a lot and it is pity to see articles, where are told about those situations. But... wild animals aren´t always asking what we like or not :) (10-14-2018, 02:00 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Have you ever seen gorilla do it? Btw, if you are interested about gorillas (and predation), have you read, what Walter Baumgartel, Michael Fay and George Schaller have told about their observations and research? I think, that Baumgartel was one of the first ones, who was really interested about gorillas and used a lot of time to study them. But I can be wrong too, I have never been that interested, that I would have checked every possible book etc. 
Posted by GuateGojira - Wanhsien tiger - post #57.
To be honest, I think that even at double of the weight (260 kg againts 500 kg), tigers are a treath to any giant primate. If not, check some cases of leopards of 50-60 kg hunting an killing gorillas of 130 - 140 kg, which is the weight of a young male gorilla, a "black back".
10-14-2018, 04:12 PM
( This post was last modified: 10-15-2018, 03:51 PM by Shadow
Edit Reason: typos
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(10-14-2018, 01:30 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Posted by GuateGojira - Wanhsien tiger - post #57.I have to say that much, that I find these who beats who discussions pretty much like barrels of gunpowder waiting for someone to put the fire there. But it looks like here people are able to handle things in mature way. At least mostly if not every time. Because I now just mentioned gorillas and leopards, I would like to add this much. As far as I have seen documents and articles, for me it looks like this. Leopards have hunted gorillas in the past and most probably do that still but maybe less than before. No more so many gorillas there and who knows how much all those people there from conservation and research programs have influence keeping leopards avoiding areas where those few gorillas are nowadays (that pure speculation from me). Anyway main method to hunt gorillas seems to be night time sneak attacks to tree nests of gorillas, so fights are short and there is some indication, that at least some leopards know where to "hit". I mean cases where is mentioned heavy injuries at groin area of gorillas. So gorilla is practically dead when waking up in those cases and no chance to do anything. When gorillas are awake and in groups, they for sure are no easy target and looks like then leopards try to take some baby or very young one quickly if finding such in some way alone a little bit "out" of group. If not able to do that, then letting it be and waiting for another opportunity. Then again if some gorilla is alone, for some reason without others nearby, then any gorilla is in danger if there is hungry leopard nearby. It is difficult to say too much because so little information. In one pretty reliable case both, silverback and leopard had killed each others in wildlife. So most probably that has been an attack without surprise advantage or then it just wasn´t enough. Of course it is possible, that leopard made attack despite there was no surprise possibility, but this is all speculation. Only certain thing is, that there they were both dead and by injuries inflicted by each others. There is not enough information to say if there were other gorillas too in that fight. One article from newspaper told about a case, where people heard gorilla screaming and leopard roaring and then from tracks they could see, that there had been a fight and gorilla was able to flee and leopard gave up after following some time that gorilla. In that case it was a gorilla alone there, no other gorillas. Then one case where black panther ripped open a male gorilla in zoo and when gorilla was unable to defend anymore, personnel shot it for mercy. There was some mistake made with cages so, that panther was able to get to gorilla cage and attack. Gorilla tried to flee, but when nowhere to go, fight started, very sad story to read. Some injuries to panther too, but nothing serious as far as there could be understood from newspaper articles. They had to drug that panther to be able to take it back to its own cage. I haven´t been able to find more information about this. So can leopard kill a gorilla? For sure. Can gorilla defend? For sure. Fact is just, that in almost all cases there are dead gorillas and only in one case there was a dead leopard with dead gorilla. Another fact is, that in most cases leopard uses sneak attacks, of course as any "big cat" does. They are not there to prove something, they are there to get food. In as "economical" way as possible as any predator would be. What I think is, that gorilla is relatively vulnerable compared to some other animals, so even though it has advantages too, it is far from being invincible. But then again, it is without a doubt also able to give back. It just isn´t so easy to hit a target like leopard in way, which would put it out just like that, those are fast and agile bastards :) I often think myself this matter like this. When having to grab a housecat, which is for some reason furious, I have no desire to do that without thick gloves and a coat. I think, that it is same reason why gorillas are afraid of leopards. Those claws are just nasty. 
I'm going to add my two cents here.
I've been studying gorillas since I was a kid and I've never seen much evidence of leopard predation on gorillas, aside some journals "news" and that kind of stuff, but it always has to be taken with a sizeable grain of salt. Dian Fossey, that studied gorillas for about 30 years, +20 of those studying mountain gorillas, didn't mention once(that I remember) leopards being a threat to gorillas on her book. Can it be done? Can a leopard kill an adult male? Yes, I think he could. A leopard is a perfect killing machine, and has the tools for it. But that shouldn't be the question. The question should be ¿would it be done? Would a leopard specifically hunt an adult male? I say to that no, without a doubt. 1- Leopards, especially experienced adult males are very, very wary of what they hunt and, like every predator, they make sure they don't waste any excess energy on very risky hunts that he knows he probably won't be able to pull it off. The exception to this is when a leopard is extremely hungry, but for each and every other ocassion, why would he hunt ana dult male when he can gor for the much smaller and manageable females and/or infants? It makes absolutely no sense. 2- A silverback is more than a match for a leopard and this is reflected in the fact that they sleep on the ground, not on the trees. Granted, they also do this because they're too heavy to make nests on the trees, but aside that it shows that they can handle anything that puts the group in risk. That a leopard could potentially injure a male is irrelevant when you know gorillas and what they can do for thier group. They just throw themselves at whatever poses a threat to the group's safety, and so the initial intention of the leopard to hunt there would turn badly quickly. As an addition to this, silverbacks are also the ones that leave their natal groups and roam the forest alone in search for females, so once again they should be "vulnerable" to predation, yet it hasn't been reported that a lone male died because of a hunt. To put it simply, for a leopard, regardless of his size, the risks of taking on such an opponent far outweights the benefits of trying to make such a kill.
I will add to that. Yes, leopards hunt gorillas - juveniles and perhaps ( maybe ) adult females and sub-adult males. But on another documentary - not so old; maybe about five years ago - about leopards - leopards from various locations of Africa and Asia were discussed. It was said that there is only one animal in the tropical jungles of the Congo that a leopard fears - the chimpanzee.
(10-14-2018, 05:13 PM)brotherbear Wrote: I will add to that. Yes, leopards hunt gorillas - juveniles and perhaps ( maybe ) adult females and sub-adult males. But on another documentary - not so old; maybe about five years ago - about leopards - leopards from various locations of Africa and Asia were discussed. It was said that there is only one animal in the tropical jungles of the Congo that a leopard fears - the chimpanzee. Yes, leopards hunt chimps too, but when there is a pack of chimps, they are known to kill leopard. Then again there is differences in areas. When there are more humans in area, chimps are more confident, but in areas, where only wild animals, chimps are more careful. Both animals have for sure certain respect and even fear sometimes towards each others. One chimp alone though usually is no problem for a leopard. Problem is to find one, which is alone and enough distance to kill it before other chimps get there :) Nevertheless as a pack, chimps are more than able to kill a leopard, as is situation with pack of gorillas. These issues are never simple and depending about "angle" how we look at situations. Different situations go in so different ways. Leopard hunts both, usually successfully, but sometimes it goes all wrong.
Yes, chimps will hunt leopards as a gang to try to drive them away. The bull gorilla would face the leopard alone. But for the gorilla its "you leave me alone and I leave you alone." I've never read anything of a gorilla purposely trying to drive out predators. Also I agree that apes are on a leopard's menu. The question would be what percentage?
(10-14-2018, 05:49 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Yes, chimps will hunt leopards as a gang to try to drive them away. The bull gorilla would face the leopard alone. But for the gorilla its "you leave me alone and I leave you alone." I've never read anything of a gorilla purposely trying to drive out predators. Also I agree that apes are on a leopard's menu. The question would be what percentage? Gorillas actually gather to group when there is threat. Leader silverback as strongest individual gorilla of the pack is there in the middle as "last defence". Around him are females and young ones. Then some adult males go "out there" to face the threat and defend the main group. So it is actually organized teamwork, when possible. Male gorilla won´t go there alone to fight unless it is only option. Only if other males can´t handle threat and predator is able to attack through them, then leader fights for sure. Of course in situation which is very surprising, without time to react normally, then a different thing, then also leader might fight in first place if it is forced to do so. Gorillas are really interesting animals and able to work as a team. Still of course not like humans and natural fear is a factor what we can´t ignore. So when a gorilla is alone or small group, they will flee if possible and fight only if no other option. This is something what has to be remembered, it is a wild animal and leopard has been predating them for who knows how long time. So that fear is for sure in their instincts. I don´t know about percentages, but I don´t remember more than one case, where leopard would have been killed by gorilla. But then again Baumgartel tells about cases, where leopards have wiped out all gorillas from large areas. So my best guess is, that leopards use all their advantages there in jungle. With chimps I have image, that they have killed more leopards, but I still think, that not more than leopards have eaten them. Maybe some young leopard sometimes make wrong estimation and go to big trouble. Also baboons are "hard targets" and leopard can get killed if not able to flee in time. I put here link to video. Watch 0.53 and how leopard moves there. Failing in hunt doesn´t always mean being killed by baboons or chimps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOWM4U75zx8 That is pretty impressive from leopard and I think, that many people doesn´t know how agile they can be. Think that animal to jungle with gorillas... I mean gorillas are quite good in trees, but I wouldn´t say, that they can beat this big cat there in agility, even though some smaller apes for sure can :) (10-14-2018, 04:57 PM)Tshokwane Wrote: I'm going to add my two cents here. Yes I agree, that in normal situations leopards aren´t attacking silverbacks, it would be against every instinct of predators to choose the hardest target. My point is just, that from sources what I have seen, I have no doubt, that leopard is able to confrontate also silverback, result of that fight then again is impossible to know. As I said, that fight is for sure fierce as that one case show, both dead. George Schaller tells that he was there himself and saw bodies. He is actually still alive, maybe someone could ask from him. Michael Fay too is still alive, I think(?). Anyway Walter Baumgartel, Michael Fay and George Schaller are for me reliable people and I haven´t found any reason, that they would have been lying, when telling about their findings. But I have found only that case with silverback and then that case at zoo only ones, where one attack for sure was no sneak attack and then another maybe not sneak attack or then it was sneak attack which went wrong. Other cases mentioned by Baumgartel and others, where adult males have been killed, those have been night time surprise attacks, which is normal way for leopard to do it. I personally have no doubt, that leopards do predate gorillas, so many sources tell about it. Even today it is mentioned in many places, that only natural enemy of gorilla is leopard.
Even today it is mentioned in many places, that only natural enemy of gorilla is leopard.
But this does not necessarily mean they would ever ambush a big bull silverback. In fact, if ever this is ever witnessed or proof-positive found, I believe that this would be head-line news. (10-15-2018, 02:08 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Even today it is mentioned in many places, that only natural enemy of gorilla is leopard. I didn´t say, that they would do that, I mean for purpose try to attack specifically silverback, of course they choose weaker in the first place.. I mentioned about two cases, where in one a leopard and silverback killed each others and that another in zoo, where male gorilla was killed by a black panther. That was at time published in several newspapers, but it was back 1949. I am not sure if that gorilla was silverback, that is of course matter of age, was it 12-14 years of age when gorilla gets that "silverback". Anyway I won´t keep it impossible, that leopard might in some occasion attack even silverback if it´s alone. Then again what comes to predation in Africa, as I said, I recommend to google search for instance that book "Man the hunted" and names like Walter Baumgartel, J. Michael Fay and George Schaller. Read what they tell and what kind of research they have done. Then you can make your own judgement do you keep them trustworthy or not. What I wanted to point out with these examples was, that even though it is very rare thing to happen, leopard is capable to fight even with biggest gorillas and it is impossible to say, that which one survive. Cold fact still is, that it is very hard to find cases about leopards killed by gorilla(s), but when seeking gorillas killed by leopards, then it is easier to find cases. My point of view isn´t to say, that gorilla would be helpless and weak, I just told about cases which I have found once when searching. I was at the time quite interested about this matter. If someone know cases about leopards killed by gorillas, it would be interesting to see because I wasn´t able to do that. I found only cases where gorillas were killed.
Credits to Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund.
Male mountain gorillas help care for infants, but why?: A new study based on research at the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund in Rwanda and just published in “Scientific Reports” suggests that male mountain gorillas who are nice to infants have greater success in siring more infants. This finding is scientifically noteworthy because it contradicts what was long believed about male gorilla reproduction and male primates in general – that all that matters is the ability to fight for the dominant position, not whether you’re a good parent. The study’s senior author, Fossey Fund President and CEO/Chief Scientific Officer Dr. Tara Stoinski, says this study shows that long-term study of a species continues to pay off in unexpected ways. “Dian Fossey first went to study these mountain gorillas in the 1960s, with the goal of furthering our understanding of human evolution,” Dr. Stoinski says. “More than five decades later, the Fossey Fund’s continued research on this population – which makes them one of the world’s longest-studied animals – is still providing critical insights into what it means to be a gorilla. or a human,” she adds.  *This image is copyright of its original author “Learning about what mountain gorillas do, and why, helps us understand how human males may have started down the unique path to our more-involved form of fatherhood,” says Dr. Stacy Rosenbaum, former Fossey Fund researcher and the study’s lead author. She is now a post-doctoral fellow at Northwestern University.  *This image is copyright of its original author “Traditionally, we’ve known that male mountain gorillas compete with one another to gain access to females and for mating opportunities,” says Rosenbaum. “This work suggests that they may have a more diverse strategy. “We don’t fully understand the mechanism, but based on this study, we propose that females preferentially mate with males who are nice to kids,” Rosenbaum adds. And, she adds, “the evolutionary origins of male caretaking in the primate lineage that led to humans may be much older than we think.” Additional research is now underway to investigate whether hormones, such as testosterone, may play a role in helping to facilitate these behaviors in the gorillas, as they do in humans.  *This image is copyright of its original author Full information on the study: “Caring for infants is associated with increased reproductive success in male mountain gorillas.” Authors: Stacy Rosenbaum, Department of Anthropology, Northwestern University and Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology, Lincoln Park Zoo; Linda Vigilant, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology; Christopher Kuzawa, Department of Anthropology and Institute for Policy Research, Northwestern University; and Tara Stoinski, The Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund. Quote:“We don’t fully understand the mechanism, but based on this study, we propose that females preferentially mate with males who are nice to kids,” Rosenbaum adds. This will be only my opinion, but I call BS on this sentence. Not all adult males get to be dominant on a group, and some that do aren't exactly what we can call "good fathers", there are some that are much more tolerant than others, even when not being the dominant male. That said, dominant males on a group will play with and care for the infants, the difference is the degree to each male does it. As it happens with us, there are some that are more naturally inclined to do it. Quote:And, she adds, “the evolutionary origins of male caretaking in the primate lineage that led to humans may be much older than we think.” And this? It's laughable. Female strategy for mating has always been the same, regardless of the species, especially with mammals. Their strategy is Hypergamy, that is trading up within the social, dominance and resources scale. That translates in them escaping with or at least shagging up the bad boys, the rugged and uncaring aplha males, while getting the lower ranked, nice beta males to care for and maintain the children. Now, gorillas somewhat control this when there's only one silverback on a group, but there are many cases where there's more than one, even multiple silverbacks, and even when there isn't, females have been known to shag with the horny blackbacks behind the back of the dominant silverback. 
@Shadow , your texts concerning gorilla-leopard relations are one of the most informative I have read, thanks. Do you know any video materials and photos concerning the interactions between these two species?
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