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Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference
Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference
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Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference
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 (10-02-2014, 10:58 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(10-02-2014, 09:58 AM)'peter' Wrote: Very interesting points neglected by most debating, so it seems. You're definitely right about the developments in the reserves you mentioned. I agree Panna has shown research only has an effect when government is interested. The Aldrich-snare article seems to have had an effect as well in that the method now seems to have been abandoned. The Russian research-project also gets more attention than the Siberian Tiger Project of the WCS. The question is how interest is triggered on the level of politics and we might need to explore purpose in order to find answers.In fact, according with Dr Dinerstein, most of those “parks” that make pride India, are just “dead end” situations, they NEED to be connected. Those places like Ranthambore, Bandhavgarh and Kanha, are only islands with no future, IF India don’t manage to connect them with other parks and reserves. Guess how Bhutan was found out as being the Largest tiger corridor in India... Camera traps.  (10-02-2014, 11:32 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: "In your mind, all operations on humans most be canceled"You misunderstand me. I was referring to the “medical” operations in humans. The example of your logic is that just because some people died in medical operations, then all procedures must be canceled, and that is not the case. That is my example. About the misinformation issue, there is no misinformation here, I just put the data like it is and your own words show how wrong you are. At the end, it is you who is misinforming about a pretty normal procedure that is a great tool for science, everywhere. Finally, you also have no idea about the aggressiveness of the tigers in Ranthambore, so your example of the supposed aggressive male tiger do to radiocollaring is incorrect and even probably false, from the root of the information (park rangers). In Bandhavgarh there is also human contact, as much as Ranthambore, and still there are not too many reports of aggressive cases, in comparison, at least. Again, radiocollaring has NOTHING to do with aggressiveness in tigers, which is a myth with no scientific base. (10-02-2014, 11:33 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Guess how Bhutan was found out as being the Largest tiger corridor in India...Sorry dude, but contrary to you, no one here is saying that an specific method is useless, invalid or "deadly". I have said this several times, Camera traps are useful for tiger density, identification and in this particular case, to found a population. But, are camera traps going to show the specific ecology, sociology and biological needs of this population? Surely not, they just can't do that. Simple solution, to radiocollar a few tigers in this area and the data will come up easily. (10-03-2014, 09:55 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(10-02-2014, 11:32 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: "In your mind, all operations on humans most be canceled"You misunderstand me. I was referring to the “medical” operations in humans. The example of your logic is that just because some people died in medical operations, then all procedures must be canceled, and that is not the case. That is my example. You are not comparing apples to apples. Medical operations are used during sickness or injury. Radio collars have nothing to do with sickness or injury. "At the end, it is you who is misinforming about a pretty normal procedure that is a great tool for science," What have I misinformed on? I have showed numerous accounts of animals dying for the sake of radio collaring or being sedated for expierements etc. Vijay has backed the aggression of (T24 or T42) towards humans since being collared, videos have shown him chasing jeeps for a unusual amount of time, and human lives have been lost because of him. Wether that has everything to do with being collared or not, its still fact that its happened. You have tried to twist everything I say, but remember, this debate had one start. Are radio collars worth the risk? Absolutely not, especially since none of the information we gain from them can't be gained by a far less intrusive measure. When it comes to relocation to repopulate a area while moving a overcrowded area, I think the risk is worth the reward. But even that risk wouldn't need to be taken if we would simply stop putting up man made barriers and killing these animals. So etiher way you slice it, there is no real gain to collaring a tiger as oppose to conserving its habitat and monitoring its movements.
I don't need your interpretation of my words, as any person with a grain of brain can see that ALL my posts show the clear idea and the clear data. Is you who has twisted the information, showing a retrograde point of view with no purpose.
Radiocollaring animals is safe and very good method to study animals in the field and the next goal of any scientists in the future will be to radiocollared more tigers, when the population will be stable and the time and money allow it. At the end, your opinion, although wort of respect, is just that, your opinion. From my part, I agree with scientists, like always, as they have worked with tigers directly and they know they business. Park rangers and photographs opinions (qualitative data, not proved trough repetition) are have few value against he word of the top scientists (quantitative data, obtained trough scientific and statistical methods that can be proved in the field) and the time have proved them right. In fact, Russia is a great example of that, where tigers are now rising and the government is making great efforts to save they tigers, unlike India, which is stuck in a silly idea that tigers most be left alone and they will save themselves. So, radiocollaring tigers is wort the risk, specially when the procedure is very safe and the data that we can obtain is incredible valuable for tiger conservation. Bhutan is the next steep for this type of studies. Then and ONLY then, we will able to know what are the driving factors on the unique ecology and sociology of this population.
You have shown no data. You keep trying to claim you have, but what have you shown data of?
I have shown the data, the accounts of animals dying due to sedation for being collared, not you. There is nothing that says collaring is going to occur more in the future, so I'm not sure where you got that idea from. The future of tigers looks to be tourism and inhabiting other areas that are devoid of tigers that they once roamed. Certainly not collaring them for the sake of collaring them. This is going no where between us, collaring is a pointless, stress inducing endevor that does nothing in regards to conserving animals. Protection on the other hand is absolutely needed. Thats forever my stance and you believe that collaring is necessary as well. That's where we disagree, got it.
I should not waste any more energy in this useless debate with you. But is simple idiotic to say that I have not shown data. You, over all, know that this is not true. You know very well the history of the captured tigers in India and Nepal, so why now you want all the data here again? just to crush you? just to satisfied your stubbornness?
You have not showed any data, you only showed a few news reports with sensationalistic articles, that like I have showed, DON’T show the full context of the situation. They simple don’t describe the simple case overall and ignore completely that all the remaining sample of captured animals is alive and very well. About the collaring of tigers in the future, well, that is simple logic. Check that Nepal is radiocollaring tigers again and the government of Bhutan should follow its steeps. The nonsense of Indian authorities should be ignored, as this method is safe and highly important for tiger conservation. Don’t forget that all the conservation “knowledge” born from the scientific studies, most of them made with radiocollars. Finally, I can’t simple accept your idea of "conservation" as is just an empty solution that don’t take in count realities that you can’t ignore. You simple live in a fairytale. There is not going to be a “touristic” life for the tigers anymore. India is not Kenya, there are deeper problems and tiger-human interaction is a fact that will never end. Deeper and more plausible solutions most be created, you can't just clear the parks from people, there is the need of management and there is a huge logistic in this. Other thing, inhabiting other areas that are devoid of tigers is another huge mistake. Why you are going to start a new injure when the old ones are still bleeding? To say that radiocollaring is pointless and stress inducing is anti-scientific and a HUGE lie. Just an ignorant person can say this, especially when most of the tiger knowledge at this day is thanks to this method. Again, your opinions should be respected, but your arguments are based only in your simple "opinion". I have presented data from Dr Chundawat (but you simple don't even read it) and you know very well the data from Chitwan from Smith et al. (1983). What I am going to do, IF I have the time, is to scan some pages from the book of Dr Karanth “The way of the tiger”, then, you will see how important is radiocollaring, that simple stopped because ignorant people simple can’t accept the methods that don’t understand. By the way, here are two good books for you: http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=qDXs...navlinks_s http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=n2sZ...navlinks_s Unbiased and direct in the statements. AT LEAST, take the time to read it, maybe you can learn something.
"To say that radiocollaring is pointless and stress inducing is anti-scientific and a HUGE lie. Just an ignorant person can say this, especially when most of the tiger knowledge at this day is thanks to this method."
@gaute once again, post 1 thing that is used to CONSERVE tigers through radio collars that cannot be abtained by Camera traps and better protection! What knowledge have we gained from Radio Collars that was more important that the FACT that we now ID tigers by stripe Patterns and we know for a FACT that Bhutan is a corridor. Because both of those Wild life changers have come mostly from Camera Traps. Just 1 thing...............
I forgot to add the Death of T105 was due to drowning after being Darted
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Pckts, you are very stubborn on this. Your opinion is less than important for me in this momento now. I have showed to you documents and books directly from scientists and you STILL think in such a retrograde idea. Camera traps are usefull to ID and measure the number of tigers trough statistical inference, that is correct, but they are not useful, not yet, to understand the ecology, biology and sociology of tigers, which 80% of the data came from radiocollars studies. Is simple silly to denied this, but you still do it.
Finally, we already know that the Sauraha tiger died during a capture, but it was just an accident, besides this male together with an old female were the ONLY TWO tigers that died during TEN years of study in Nepal. They represent barely 4% of all captured tigers. Again, you are been very paranoid here. Finally, from the words of a scientist, Hemanta Mishra:  *This image is copyright of its original author “This illustrates that the accidental death of one tiger during field research was not biologically costly” There you go. I will not lose my time with you anymore. You are simple posting nonsenses and creating havoc without any reason. You have discussed with me and now you are attacking Sanjay too. What is happening with you??? [img]images/smilies/huh.gif[/img] (10-24-2014, 04:47 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: The saurah male will eventually loose its territory, survival of the fittest. While we like to make the argument that a dominant male will not change the gene pool, tigers always go look for other territories and a dominant male will produce other strong dominant males that will travel to other territories to spread their genes, same with dominant males from other lands. Unless of course we block of their mode of travel, then there can be a problem. But that is a unnatural occurence, just like the death of 105. Which is why its unnecessary and would of never happened if they would of just observed from a distance, but to be fair, at the time, camera traps where not as prevelent as they are now, and the technology wasn't as good.It was just an accident and before to judge we most know which was the situation and what was the mistake in that particular capture. Dr Sunquist captured that tiger two times and nothing happened, so there was something more -human error- for example. Even then, many other tigers were re-captured after that, and none of them died or get injured (i.e. the large male M126). About the cameras issue, even with modern technology, most scientists are still willing to capture and radiocollar tigers. Why? Simple, because although camera traps are not-invasive and cheaper, they are not the correct method to study tiger behavior. Cameras are for numbers and identification, but not for sociability and behavior. Other problem is logistic and time of identification, in this case, radiocollaring was proved to be more reliable at short therm, while cameras are excellent in the long therm. At the end, the only way to get a real scientific point of view (the "tiger science" as I call it) is to use the TWO methods together: direct data from few radiocollared specimens and statistical inference with the overall population based on photographs. Check this example: Interestingly, the knowledge of tiger numbers in Nagarahole is one of the best in India, but the knowledge of tiger society and behavior is just "average". Guess why? Simple, the radiocollaring study of Dr Karanth was abruptly stooped in 1995 and in his document and book of 2003, he states that it is still a mystery if the tigers of Nagarahole are territorial or not, contrary for example, with those of Nepal, from which we have a complete ecological point of view. More information on this last part (territoriality) to come in other topics, with special focus on Kanha. (10-30-2014, 11:08 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(10-24-2014, 04:47 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: The saurah male will eventually loose its territory, survival of the fittest. While we like to make the argument that a dominant male will not change the gene pool, tigers always go look for other territories and a dominant male will produce other strong dominant males that will travel to other territories to spread their genes, same with dominant males from other lands. Unless of course we block of their mode of travel, then there can be a problem. But that is a unnatural occurence, just like the death of 105. Which is why its unnecessary and would of never happened if they would of just observed from a distance, but to be fair, at the time, camera traps where not as prevelent as they are now, and the technology wasn't as good.It was just an accident and before to judge we most know which was the situation and what was the mistake in that particular capture. Dr Sunquist captured that tiger two times and nothing happened, so there was something more -human error- for example. Even then, many other tigers were re-captured after that, and none of them died or get injured (i.e. the large male M126). While some prefer collars, that is by no means, all. And many prefer not to do it, so that is up to the biologist. But a biologist doesn't always have the interest of the species or nature in mind, and human inquires may or may not serve a purpose in cosnervation. And while logistics may not always allow camera traps to be placed all over, they can usually still be placed in abundance in the areas that allow it. We have learned far more about tiger society due to video and camera trap than we ever have learned from radio collars. Think about all the new tiger fathers we now have documented living with their family, hunting together, protecting their young etc. We wouldn't have learned that from a collar, only from visual proof. I am not saying that collars can't offer some good information, I am saying that camera traps and video can offer just as much with a far less invasive means of doing so and with out any tiger dying from unatural causes. While you may be willing to accept a few tiger deaths as long as science is involved, I am not. 1 tiger death or 100, its far to high of a price to pay. 
ON THE USE OF COLLARS IN TIGERS
PC, I added a 'Thank you' to your last post. I admit I was in a good mood, but I also wanted to underline it was appreciated you disagreed with a good poster using arguments only. My compliments. However. Your view is a result of one angle only. Furthermore, your angle is too narrow. If you start conservation with the axiom that nature should have its course and individual tigers need to be respected at all times no matter what, chances are conservation of tigers would have ended before it really started some decades ago. Your view, right at the bottom, means: 'See no evil, hear no evil' and 'Let's hope for the best'. It is a stand with consequences. Explanation. 1 - THE ADVANTAGES OF COLLARS a - I propose to go to Copters' last post. The post on the three orphaned Amur tiger cubs, I mean. The cubs were born in late spring or early summer. One day, in their first winter, the tigress left to find food. She didn't return, which meant she had been killed. The researchers didn't know about it, because the tigress hadn't been collared. b - In a vast place like Sichote-Alin, it would have meant the cubs were doomed. Not one, but four wild tigers would have been lost, that is. But the cubs communicated in that they showed themselves. To us. The Russian rangers are among the best. They walk day and night, winter or no winter. That's why the cubs were seen and photographed. The picture made headlines everywhere. Because the rangers, as a result of the cubs, knew their mother had been killed, they decided to catch the cubs. It took almost a week to find all three, because the cubs hadn't been collared. It was just in time. The rescue operation was filmed and broadcasted by the BBC (that was before the board, as a result of cut-backs, decided to concentrate on food, attics, the countryside and dancing). c - In order to rewild them at the appropiate time, Miquelle (who featured in the documentary) and his collegues created a 'rehabilitation centre'. It was a new idea and it worked. No habituation meant the cubs stayed wild at heart. Than the day arrived to release them. Before they were released, they were measured, weighed and collared. This will enable the researchers to keep track of their development in time. A region with plenty of space and no adult tigers was selected. It offers chances, but the cubs have never been on their own and they don't know anything about bears, wolves and wild boars. Will they make it to adulthood? d - The cubs were released and monitored. When they hadn't been seen for some time, the researchers were able to find out. Because the cubs had collars. The collars enabled researchers to find them, or, more accurate, the remains of the wild boars they had killed and eaten. They also noticed one male cub had made way for a bear out for porc. This means the cubs have passed their first exam. We know, because the cubs have been collared. e - Because of the collars, researchers, for the first time ever, are now able to track immature tigers on their own. As a result, they are able to collect information on the way they use space, hunt and interact with other animals. The new information will enable researchers to help wild tigers in the future. At some stage, the collars will have to be replaced. By then, the cubs will have grown into young adult tigers. Young adults are the ones most often killed in fights with other tigers and other predators, like bears. The collars will enable researchers to get an idea of how young adult tigers use space and move. Invaluable information that might shed some light on a few things not well known. f - I could go on for some time. The point is you need to understand that wild tigers need help. The best help they can get is good decisions. And these are a result of good information. If we fail, all wild tigers will be killed by poachers in one or two decades only, if not sooner. Remember there are only 3000 left. Many forget the number of wild tigers is still decreasing. The reason is poachers often are as well-informed and as well-equipped as rangers and researchers, if not better. Furthermore, they are not bothered by laws and similar things. Knowledge is the only true assett we may have. 2 - THE DISADVANTAGES OF COLLARS a - Before they are collared, tigers have to be caught. The Aldrich-snare was used in Russia. We now know some male tigers were wounded when they tried to free themselves, because a Russian member of a team that captured tigers wrote an article about the consequences of the Aldrich-snare. The article resulted in a ban in most parts of Sichote-Alin. Other methods are now used. Was it a mistake to use the snare? For some male tigers it definitely was. We know, because the snare was, in fact, tested. Consequences were mapped. Mistakes, most unfortunately, often are the only way to get to knowledge. b - After they are caught, wild tigers are sedated. Before they are sedated, they wait. Often for many hours. My guess is they suffer from stress in this period. Are there consequences? Yes. So much so, that a tiger sedated again will try to get away at all costs? Yes in some cases. Could stress result in death, even in an accidental way? Yes. It happened to the Sauraha tiger in Chitwan and I do not doubt it happened more than once. In spite of evasive actions of researchers in some cases, these incidents came out. Articles were written and these enabled others to learn. Some things were changed and we can only hope the number of incidents will decrease. c - Is it degrading to catch, sedate and collar wild tigers? Of course it is. But collars offer researchers a chance to get to information impossible to collect with other means. Knowledge is the only way to understand tigers, it is the only way to stay ahead of poachers and it is the only way to really help wild tigers in the long run. 3 - CONSERVATION a - In the last century in particular, humans have multiplied to an extent never seen before. Wild country has disappeared so fast, that the balance has been affected. Wild animals have lost over 90% of their former territory. Many wild animals, and many large predators in particular, are on the edge of extinction. If we want to prevent total destruction in our time, the outlook has to change. Real fast. Knowledge in itself won't save the world, but when the time for change has arrived, knowledge has to be there. b - One of the things you have to accept is human beings, conservationwise, hold the key. A new attitude is needed. In a century and a half, we changed from hunter-gatherers and potential prey into managers. If we want to continue on this planet, we have no option but to become aware of this new position and act accordingly. Managers, apart from passion, need information. Information is the essential tool and we got to make sure it gets into the right hands. If we, as you advice (for noble reasons), willfully refrain from acting in a responsible way, chances are the information needed to protect wild tigers will be collected by those with less noble objectives. And that will not only be the end of wild tigers. c - I do not intend to disregard the tigers who lost their life as a result of freak accidents and mistakes, but not one, as far as I know, died intentionally. Remember there is a war going on. Every war has terrible consequences. It isn't different in this war. The main thing to remember is there are still wild tigers. In some regions, they are even increasing in numbers. One reason is researchers, mainly as a result of radio-collars, have learned a lot in the last decades. The alternative would have been watching the proceedings and do nothing. Today, we read new articles about living tigers doing well. I don't know about you, but I prefer articles and books about living animals over another obituary. (10-31-2014, 07:44 AM)'peter' Wrote: ON THE USE OF COLLARS IN TIGERS The collored cubs would have survived or died without human intervention, but it would of been natures way. Intrusion is not acceptable even if we think it benefits the animals. The only reason the animals are in danger is because of our intrusion. Just like humans providing carcasses to Machli, that is wrong. She must pass the same way as all other wild tigers, that is natures way. While I don't know the cause of the amur tiger cubs mother passing, if she was poached, I guess its ok to intervine since its a unnatural cause of death, that being said. The collars had nothing to do with those cubs surviving. They only served the purpose of providing humans with the location of the tigers. This doesn't help the tigers in any way, since they were never even viewed, they were simply monitored, but it doesn't stop anybody from killing them, it doesn't protect them in any, it only hinders them. It gives them ill feelings towards man and even comfort. I've just started reading Corbetts book, and he specifically mentions how these tigers are individuals, they hold grudges, they identify weakness and they are all individuals who have their own personalities. Why give them a reason to hold grudges against man, just like T24, why turn them into man hunters or haters. Its not natural for tigers to attack humans, its only in desperate times that they do so or after they have been damaged by us. I don't believe that playing god will save these animals, I believe that protecting them and all things will save them, that is all. A colar serves no purpose in protecting these animals, its not because of collars that Ranthambhore, Kahna, Bandhavargh, Tadoba and Kaziranga have high tiger densisty's, its because they are protected by the gov't and provide financial gain through tourism that these Tigers are flurishing. Tiger numbers where far higher before collars ever existed and that was because of one thing, no human intrusion. So if we can't stop our intrusion, we can at least offer protection, i.e. Forrest guards, funding, tourism, etc. That is conservation, not intruding on these animals, stressing them out and giving them a reason to hate us. (10-31-2014, 10:32 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(10-30-2014, 11:53 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: While some prefer collars, that is by no means, all. And many prefer not to do it, so that is up to the biologist. But a biologist doesn't always have the interest of the species or nature in mind, and human inquires may or may not serve a purpose in cosnervation. And while logistics may not always allow camera traps to be placed all over, they can usually still be placed in abundance in the areas that allow it. We have learned far more about tiger society due to video and camera trap than we ever have learned from radio collars. Think about all the new tiger fathers we now have documented living with their family, hunting together, protecting their young etc. We wouldn't have learned that from a collar, only from visual proof. I am not saying that collars can't offer some good information, I am saying that camera traps and video can offer just as much with a far less invasive means of doing so and with out any tiger dying from unatural causes. While you may be willing to accept a few tiger deaths as long as science is involved, I am not. 1 tiger death or 100, its far to high of a price to pay.I think that Peter explained very well the point, although he focused in Russian tigers and not the Bengal ones, which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems. However, on your post, I will like to point out that the problem here is not to "accept" a few tiger deaths in the name of science, the point here is that those deaths were accidental and this is a risk that any one most take when we begin something new. All, I mean ALL scientific fields had sad stories in they past, from the persecution of the old scientists just because they said that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, up to the dead of Marie Curie, which died from radiation. All new fields have risks and those risks are involved in the famous "curve of learning". Science take a chance and often succeed, yes, two tigers died in Nepal, but all the others survived and now, Nepalese tigers are the only one that we actually know all they morphological, ecological and sociological facts. Obviously the price was low in comparison with what we now have. In fact, Nepalese tigers are about the few populations that actually have a chance to survive in the long therm, specially with the plan of the interconnection of the Terai arc (from Corbett (extreme west) up to Manas (extreme east)). How many camera traps does sumatra have? What sq. mile % do they cover? I have seen very little "camera trap" footage from sumatra, and that is because sumatra is not a easy place to view. Tide rises and lowers leaving it almost impossible to have camer traps up since they would be covered by water half the day. The trekking is very harsh and dangerous. On this statement "which capture method is by far, safe and presented few problems" Tigers have died in India due to collaring or sedation, so it is no more safe than any where else. T24 or T42 (forget which one) has become a man killer and is aggressive towards vehicles, its just a unnecassary risk to the tiger and man. But even if no tigers ever died, its still wrong. Its wrong to put human devices on animals, plain and simple. I know this is far fetched, but imagine a alien species comes to earth, they pick random people out, then they sedate them, put a collar on them that they cannot take off, then monitor them until a time they see fit. It would be a cause for war, its no different for a animal. No matter what "good intention" you have, this is wrong. Animals are no different than us. |
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