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Lions and Tigers in India
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 (04-22-2014, 05:42 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: Then i guess the Caspian tiger AKA the western Amur tiger must have colonized the Central-West Siberia as well.Here is the image of Driscoll et al. (2009) about the invasion of the tigers in the Caspian region and the re-invasion of Central Asia (correctly know as Siberia) and up to the far east.  *This image is copyright of its original author The correct pats were "C" and "D". Interestingly, this show that at least about 200 years ago, the term "Siberia tiger" was correct after all. Genetic studies of Dr Shu-Jin Luo and her team suggest that all tiger populations were almost extinct about 75,000-108,000 years ago, and only a single small population in the north of Indochina-South of China survived and gives origin to all the modern tiger populations. This suggest that only the southern population of Wanhsien tigers survived the terrible winter that caused the clouds of dust provoked by the Toba eruption, while all the others died, probably from starvation as the population of ungulates also disappeared as the plants died. So, modern Amur tigers are the newest population, descendent from the Caspian tigers and adapted to a new prey base, like the large wild boars (that formed the angular stone in the Caspian tiger feeding) and developed larger skulls with larger sagital crest and larger canines and a much robust bodies. Bengal tigers also developed similar characteristics, but retained a relative slender cranial form, in comparison with those from North-Central Asia. For more information and conversation about Amur-Caspian tigers, we can use this topic: http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-amur-tigers This topic is only about lions, and I will not like to mix themes. Greetings GrizzlyClaws. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
This is an interesting informative image that will help us to see how close are Kuno and Ranthambore:
 *This image is copyright of its original author They are too close for my taste. I can't see a good end here. It will be even better to put some of this Indian lion in the North of Africa. It will help much more to move them there that just change it to another small area in India. 
WOW, Ranthambhore and Kuno are practically neighbors. There will definitely be interaction between them if they are moved there.
What is the closest tiger territory to Gir? Do any tigers live in Gujarat?
As far I know, there was, in the very distant past, a small population in Gujarat, but always in the western part of the state. However, we most remember that Gujarat is to dry for the tiger and those few tigers were probably just wandering tigers from Madhya Pradesh.
Tigers and lions NEVER lived together in the area of Gir. That is why the "famous" video of the lion vs tiger in Gir is FALSE.
Interesting. Seems like lions and tigers really don't compete. They just prefer, simply put, completely different enviormental needs.
Exactly, in India, where lions and tiger lived together (using the classic theory), they actually don't compete at all. There is not a single traditional history, nor even in the old Indian books, of tigers fighting lions. In the book "Tiger the ultimate guide" of Valmik Thapar (2004), Romila Thapar states that in the Mahabharata, for example, it is known of tigers fighting other tigers and even against elephants and buffaloes, but tigers and lions in combat with one another are not mentioned.
In chapter 4 (Mrigaraja: King of Beasts), Divyabhanusinh (2005) explain how the lion came to be the king of the animals in India, however, it clear that this point of view born completely from the influence of the cultures of west Asia which influenced the first Indian cultures, but not from India itself. Again, there is no mention of any fight or conflict between the tiger and the lion. In fact, Divyabhanusinh consider that the godess Durga with the tiger as a ride is an "aberration" as her original mount was a lion, however, this is because the "original" incarnation of this goddess came from the ancient cultures of west Asia and can be traced up to Egypt. In this case, the influence of the tiger, despite the claims of Divyabhanusinh and Mitra, was so great in India that they even changed the mount of Durga of a lion for a tiger! Valmik and Romila Thapar clearly show this in Valmik's book of 2004 and in the great "The Penguin History of Early India from the origins to AD 1300" from Romila, which mentions several times the tiger but there is practically no evidence of lions in ancient Indian art. So, independently if we believe or not that tigers and lions DO shared territory in ancient India, they lived in two completely different habitats and certainly avoid each other. Besides, the ecological adaptations of each of them and they hunting methods makes a mix impossible. However, the Ranthambore - Kuno area are a unique place and combine the two habitat type and there is were conflict can arise, in theory.
What area did Valmik release the wild lions in? I remember him saying that they found tigers trying to find a way into the enclosure, numerous times. Must of been a heavy tiger population.
(04-23-2014, 11:35 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: What area did Valmik release the wild lions in? I remember him saying that they found tigers trying to find a way into the enclosure, numerous times. Must of been a heavy tiger population.Can you reformulate the question? Valmik don't released lions, the one who released lions was the Maharaja Madho Rao Scindia of Gwalior and the Colonel Kesri Singh was the one that reported the incident. Now, about the area, I think that it was the area of Shivpuri, but there is not a specific location.
Don't worry my friend.
:<br />
[img]http://i.imgur.com/E5VWxZe.png) *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author It is interesting to see that in the second intent, the lions in the area of the tigers simple dissapeared while those who manage to travel further, it is possible that they achieved to breed, proving that the introduction of lions by the Alexander the great and the Mughals is very possible, if they avoid areas with high tigers density and choosing different habitats. In the case of Nepal, the lions were only one month in the wild before been killed, so the interaction between lion and tiger was ZERO. Besides, tigers in Chitwan avoid the open areas (Sunquist, 1981) where the domestic cattle live and this was the area that the lions occupied that month, proving also that lions and tigers don't live (they can't) in the same place. These are ony three cases, but the path-breaking book of Thapar of 2013 describe many other events when old cultures imported lions to hunt them in the wild, and judging by the case of Gwalior, is very possible that some of them managed to breed. If you read the previous scan that I post here, Divyabhanusinh (2005) states that there are not fossils from the Pleistocene nor even of the Holocene, of lions in Gir, suggesting a more recent introduction (artificial or natural).
Great stuff. Interesting that some lions who traveled outside of the intial release point could of quite possibly, bred. I wonder if the presence of tigers forced them to move outside of the original release point. Or maybe it is the simple fact that cats are inquisitive and search out new territories. Who knows for sure. I am surprised that lions in Nepal took to cattle because of the large animals that are available as prey there. Zoo bred cats would probably have a difficult time trying to take wild bovine on right away.
Remember that in Chitwan there are not very large prey (Sambars of up to 300 kg are the largest) and the little remnant population of gaurs at that time was probably in the lowest moment and even in the time of Dr Sunquist studies, the population was still low and restricted to the hill areas were tigers don’t lived (that is why there are no gaur in the prey of Chitwan tigers).
In the case of the lions, the problem is even worst, as the other available prey are very fast and powerful, i.e. chital deer and Sambar deer. So, been captive ones, they simple shift to the domestic cattle, which is large enough and easy to kill.
Is there a larger prey base in Chitwan now?
Because the tigers that come out of there are so big, you would think that they would have to be feeding on large animals to sustain that size.
Incredible as it is, in the time of the Nepal Tiger Project (1973-1981) and probably still now, the prey base was formed by deer and pig. The largest prey available was the Sambar deer (320 kg), followed by the wild boar (230 kg) and in third place the chital deer (90 kg).
The case of Chitwan is that the relative small size of prey is offset by its number and density. Tigers don’t need to search too much in the territory to found a chital deer but if they can, they will select the largest prey possible. Nagarahole present a different case, as here there is large prey as gaur (1,000 kg) and even higher densities of deer, but the tigers captured/hunted here don’t surpass the 227 kg. It seems that tigers in Nepal are shorter but stockier while those of Nagarahole are longer but lite.
In a matter of months the fertile alluvial floodplain was drained of its marshes and cleared of its forests and the animals that occupied this habitat like the Rhinoceros, Swamp Deer and Wild Buffalo were transported, in one easy step, from abundance to virtual extinction. A small part of the valley remained a hunting reserve but when the population of rhino fell to between 80 and 100 animals the government of Nepal created an official reserve protected by the Rhino Patrol. The wilderness however, remained in steady retreat until 1973 when Chitwan was declared a National Park to be protected by the Army. By this time 2/3rds of the forest cover was lost. The Swamp Deer and Wild Buffalo had vanished and the Elephant population, with migration routes disrupted was reduced to a relic group of about a dozen animals to the east. Nevertheless, protection has brought some recovery and at present the Rhino population stands at over 400. Chitwan is also an important tiger reserve and has been the location for two long-term studies - the Smithsonian - Nepal Wildlife Department Tiger Ecology Project and Dr.Charles McDougals' land tenure and dispersal study. Apart from these Chitwan has also hosted Dr. Andrew Lauries' seminal work on the Great One-horned Rhinoceros, is the location for the captive rearing and reintroduction of the endangered gharial crocodile and several other smaller studies.Hit hard by Tiger poaching in the late 80's and early 90's private and government organisations forged a remarkable alliance to combat this threat and today the tiger and rhino population in Chitwan is thriving. Innovative schemes have also been launched to widen the benefits of tourism and foster conservation. Forests fringing the park that have been protected by the local villagers have been opened for local tourism thus co-opting the locals into the business of conservation.The park was designated as a World Heritage Site in 1984.
http://wildvistas.com/nationalparks/chit...itwan.html It does seem that chitwan still has a very small # of elephants, and they do have Rhino but the wild buffalo appear to be gone.There are more than 43 species of mammals are found in Chitwan. The Park supports the second largest concentration of the endangered One-horned Rhinoceros (Rhinoceros unicornis). Chitwan rhinos have been translocated to other areas of the terai like Bardia and Dudhwa in India, from where they had disappeared to form the nucleus of new populations. Long famous for the Tiger (Panthera tigris) the Park supports about 80-100 tigers. With the disappearance of the Swamp Deer and the Wild Buffalo the prey base consists primarily of species like Chital (Cervus axis), Hog Deer (Axis porcinus) and Wild Boar (Sus scrofa). This is supplemented by smaller animals like the barking deer or Muntjac (Muntiacus muntjak), grey or Common Langur (Semnopithecus entellus) and Rhesus Macaque (Macaca mulatta). Sambar (Cervus unicolor) were once common in the Sal and riverine forests but there seems to have been a decline of these animals. A good population of Sloth Bear (Melurses ursinus) exists here. Smaller animals like the Palm Civet, Common Mongoose, Jungle Cat, Fishing Cat, Leopard Cat and even rarities like the Binturong, Spotted Linsang, Crab-eating Mongoose and Serow have been reported here. Chitwan is also home to the Gaur (Bos gaurus) which are most commonly seen in late winter and early spring when they descend to the lowlands. Wild Elephants (Elephas maximus) have been seen more regularly than in the past and it could be that the small eastern population has increased. Four-horned antelope or Chowsingha (Tetracerus quadricornis), Striped Hyena, Pangolin and the Gangetic Dolphin have all been seen here. The Smooth Indian Otter was once common although over- fishing of the large rivers and streams seems to have impacted adversely on the population in the past few years. The Indian Wild Dog or Dhole (Cuon alpinus) is quite rare and only sporadic sightings of these are reported. The Leopard (Panthera pardus) is also found in Chitwan, but as in most other places, is hard to spot. This also backs your point  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Chitwan Rhino  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Maybe tigers are preying more on Rhino than we think? A total of 68 species of mammals , 56 species of herpeto fauna and 126 species of fish have been recorded in the park. The park is especially renowned for its protection of One Horned Rhinoceros, Royal Bengal Tiger and Gharial Crocodile. The park harbors not only the world’s largest terrestrial mammal (wild elephant) but also the world’s smallest terrestrial mammal (pygmy shrew). A total of 544 species of birds has been recorded so far including 22 globally threatened species including critically endangered Bengal Florican, Slender-billed Vulture, White-rumped Vulture and Red-headed Vulture. Elephant might have also been a popular prey item for tigers in the past, as well. http://www.chitwannationalpark.gov.np/in...odiversity |
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