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Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 07:34 PM

@Apollo

it says 4 years old tigress, still gotta be 2,5 -3 years, and it's not about comparing a sub adult to an adult, I was just saying that leopards can kill tigers bigger than themselves..

It's theories based on thing I have seen and read.. Haha no way apollo that a leopard dies in 99% of fights with Lions and tigers.. They can really defend themselves. Ofc a leopard will run When they see a lion or tiger, because they can be killed and The risk is very big..

Apollo · 09-01-2014, 07:42 PM

(09-01-2014, 02:32 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(09-01-2014, 01:50 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(09-01-2014, 06:33 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Apollo

not nessecaeraly true, neiather in strength or size does a jaguar stand a chance against a male lion/tiger, and he would stand no chance in a fight to death, but that he could have sucseded defending himself there's no doubt about! A leopard killing a tigress, male leopards surviveing attacks from several Lions, a large jaguar male almost twize The weight of an Indian male leopard, would walk out of a fight with a male lion/tiger alive more often then not IMO, but only by defending not by fighting!

At first that tigress was a cub, comparing a young subadult tigress with adult male leopard doesnt make sense. We also dont know the status of that cub before that incident. Why the subadult was out on her own without her mother's protection in the first place. Most importantly youngsters will lack the skills, courage and experience when facing an opponent. There are many subadult males (tigers and lions) being dominated by adult females eventhough the males are much bigger.

Regarding the 4 lionesses and the male leopard and 3 lionesses vs leopard, if those lionesses really wanted to kill those leopards, they could have done it in seconds. But they were not totally into killing.

These kind of incidents are unusually rare events and not the norm, its like saying that one warthog stood against a lioness and thus warthogs can defend against lions and a female cheetah stood her ground against an adult male lion, wildebeest stood against lions etc etc.

The norm is these animals will be killed plain and simple. And no jaguar can walkout of a fight against male tiger or male lion. In general if there is a fight the jaguar will either be killed by the male tiger/male lion or will just run for its life and try to hide or climb a tree. This is not defending or repelling, its just running for its life. Even cheetahs, leopards and some small cats will do this.

I think it´s not that easy. For instance I know about a case when male leopard successfully repelled an attack of a male lion (lion had to be treated by vet). Yes, Lion is much bigger and if he really wanted to kill the leopard, he would be succesfull. But in that case the lion didn´t need to kill the leopard, he could back off - he lost nothing. But the leopard was fighting for his life. There is a difference in motivation. Lion could kill the leopard, but probably with some injuries...and for him it was better to back off and avoid further injuries then to kill the leopard.

Once again: if lion/tiger really wanted to kill a jaguar (even with injuries), the jaguar would stand a little chance - there is no dispute.

I do understand your point.

A fight within the same subspecies of bigcats could be due to grudge, dominance, food, mate, territory etc. In this cases the animals can kill each other or injure each other without killing

A fight between male tiger/male lion against other bigcats is mainly due to food and eradicate competition. If a male tiger/lion try to steal a kill from other bigcats it will just chase them off (the main motive here is chasing off), but when they see them as food and competition they will just kill them (the main motive here is to kill) and when they are in the killing mode, well they go for the kill no matter what (most of the times).

Its better to avoid captive animals, as we know it doesnt represent the wild cousins in this case. Because we have seen lion pairs being chased in circles by buffalo calf.

Apollo · 09-01-2014, 07:48 PM

(09-01-2014, 07:32 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(09-01-2014, 07:22 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(09-01-2014, 06:35 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Apollo

the tigress killed by The leopard was 4 years...she was indipendent and had left her mother.

Yeah that's what I'm saying if they fight Often The jaguar will sucseded defending himself. Like The leopard against those lionesses yes they could have killed The leopard easy, but they never did because The leopard fought very well and sucseded in Defending. Jaguars would probably also be able to do The same, with even greater strength and size.

As You say Lions and tigers are superior amongst The cat's in strength and size,and would kill any other cat if they where going for it,but very rarely they do so, and Often cat's like leopards will be able to defend himself by laying on his back with all four paws. You can't compare a cheetah vs lion fight with a leopard vs lion fight... Cheetah would be killed 99% of The time

That tigress was no way a 4 year old, It was way too small for that and it was just a cub ( a very young subadult). I clearly told you that you cannot use a subadult against an adult.

Again you are just using a single account and making a theory by yourself and ignoring all the rest of the accounts which says otherwise. Killing by male tigers/male lions of other cats is not a rare event, 99% of the times there will be a dead cat if it tries to defend or repell a male tiger/ male lion by facing it. Thats why leopards, cheetahs etc will run at the site of a male tiger/male lion without trying to defend or repel them, because they know they cant repell an attack from male tiger/male lion. Its just that simple.

Well...they logically prefer to run and avoid the confrontation...but that doesn´t mean, that they are not able to repell the attack. And we are talking about jaguars, who - as I belive - are considerably more dangerous than leopards.

They run from the confrontation because they would be killed if they stand and face it.
Jaguars can be dangerous than leopards, but they are not dangerous enough to repell an attack from male tiger/lion.
Only tigers and lions can defend and repell an attack from each other and not other cats from them.

Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 08:22 PM

@Apollo yes leopards especialy jaguars can survive, there are videos on YouTube when leopards survives attacks.... Also cheetah's and leopards as you name in The same sentence is compleatly different animals leopards are able to defend cheetah's not, a cheetah will be killed every time....
A leopard kills a cheetah easy'er than a lion/tiger kills a leopard.

The thing is a serrious attack from a male lion/tiger will probably end in death every time for another cat. That's not The point but Often they will not attack this serriously. Only cat who can kill a male lion is a male tiger and The only cat who can kill a male tiger is a male lion as You said.

Please understand that I dosen't try to defend leopards only because they are my favorite cat, but they will Often actually survive attacks from lionesses, even tho The lionesses will Often chase them. But as You say if a lioness want's she kills it.

Pckts · 09-01-2014, 09:40 PM

(09-01-2014, 07:22 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(09-01-2014, 06:35 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Apollo

the tigress killed by The leopard was 4 years...she was indipendent and had left her mother.

Yeah that's what I'm saying if they fight Often The jaguar will sucseded defending himself. Like The leopard against those lionesses yes they could have killed The leopard easy, but they never did because The leopard fought very well and sucseded in Defending. Jaguars would probably also be able to do The same, with even greater strength and size.

As You say Lions and tigers are superior amongst The cat's in strength and size,and would kill any other cat if they where going for it,but very rarely they do so, and Often cat's like leopards will be able to defend himself by laying on his back with all four paws. You can't compare a cheetah vs lion fight with a leopard vs lion fight... Cheetah would be killed 99% of The time

That tigress was no way a 4 year old, It was way too small for that and it was just a cub ( a very young subadult). I clearly told you that you cannot use a subadult against an adult.

Again you are just using a single account and making a theory by yourself and ignoring all the rest of the accounts which says otherwise. Killing by male tigers/male lions of other cats is not a rare event, 99% of the times there will be a dead cat if it tries to defend or repell a male tiger/ male lion by facing it. Thats why leopards, cheetahs etc will run at the site of a male tiger/male lion without trying to defend or repel them, because they know they cant repell an attack from male tiger/male lion. Its just that simple.

Ya, there was aboslutely nothing that ever said that tigress was 4 years old, he pulled that out of no where.

But lets say a 2 year old male L or T vs a 350lb male territory holding Jag...
Im not so sure a adult jag couldn't be the victor, only because of the expierence required to obtain Prime adulthood, the fights, hunts etc.

But that would be a extremely large Jag. Most would be too small, even for a sub adult L or T

Pckts · 09-01-2014, 09:46 PM

(09-01-2014, 08:22 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Apollo yes leopards especialy jaguars can survive, there are videos on YouTube when leopards survives attacks.... Also cheetah's and leopards as you name in The same sentence is compleatly different animals leopards are able to defend cheetah's not, a cheetah will be killed every time....
A leopard kills a cheetah easy'er than a lion/tiger kills a leopard.

The thing is a serrious attack from a male lion/tiger will probably end in death every time for another cat. That's not The point but Often they will not attack this serriously. Only cat who can kill a male lion is a male tiger and The only cat who can kill a male tiger is a male lion as You said.

Please understand that I dosen't try to defend leopards only because they are my favorite cat, but they will Often actually survive attacks from lionesses, even tho The lionesses will Often chase them. But as You say if a lioness want's she kills it.

Thats not true either, Tigers kill Leopards all the time.
Same with Lions, im sure, I doubt a leopard puts up much of a fight, same as a cheetah to a leopard.
There are leopards who have killed lions or tigers, defended against multiple attackers, etc.
But those are the furthest thing from normal, they are extremely rare.

From the books I have read, I know for a fact that Jags are Bad mofo's. They are nasty and unbelivably strong, but that image shows the size difference between a normal jag and tiger. If we had a extroidanary Jag or small L or T the tides would probably be in the Jags favor.

Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 10:14 PM

Yeah I know for sure Lions and tigers will kill leopards Often, but still a leopard (MALE) can stand a chance in defending himself against a female lion/tiger and might also survive a tiger attack.. But ofcourse a leopard stands no chance if The Lions/tiger really decides to make The kill, but female leopards will be killed every time if not they are extreamly lucky.

The thing is a cheetah can't defend The same way, can't lay on their back and does not have The same Sharp claws. I can't se a cheetah stand no chance against a male leopard if The leopard catches him. And unike Lions who kill leopards and cheetah's without eating them, The leopards will actually eat The cheetah, Caracal, serval, young hyenas, wild dogs, that's why leopards are The great survives all from a bug to a eland are prey for them.

Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 10:16 PM

Also I have read that The tigress was 4 years old. So stop saying i pulled that out of nowhere...

Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 10:20 PM

*This image is copyright of its original author

See here.... pulled that out of nowhere..... Stop blaming pckts..

sanjay · 09-01-2014, 11:14 PM

Don't deviate the thread

Pantherinae · 09-01-2014, 11:19 PM

'sanjay dateline='' Wrote: Don't deviate the thread

Agreed, stupid argument where people have different opinions!

Pckts · 09-02-2014, 12:47 AM

(09-01-2014, 10:20 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author
See here.... pulled that out of nowhere..... Stop blaming pckts..

Never saw that article, only the one with the Tiger adn Leopard dead in a side by side image. But either way they say "about 4 years old" so may or may not be that old but still a sub adult either way.

In response to your statement about Lions noting eating Cheetahs or other predators, thats not true.
Here is a link with a article on a leopard killing its lion pen mate, as well as a lion who killed and ate a pregnant cheetah.
http://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/t...ena?page=2

Pantherinae · 09-02-2014, 01:26 AM

Desperate lions wil sometimes eat ofcourse, but it's unusual. I have even seen desperate nomader male Lions eat a hyena.

Still unike leopards Lions will usualy not eat other carnivores just kill them..

Pckts · 09-02-2014, 01:35 AM

(09-02-2014, 01:26 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Desperate lions wil sometimes eat ofcourse, but it's unusual. I have even seen desperate nomader male Lions eat a hyena.

Still unike leopards Lions will usualy not eat other carnivores just kill them..

I think it all depends on the situation.
I have seen lions actually eat cubs killed, a mother has eaten her own cub killed as well.
When I saw the video, my theory was, Better the cubs mother eats it than a competitor. Kind of out of respect to the cub I guess, if that makes sense.

Pantherinae · 09-02-2014, 01:42 AM

'Pckts dateline='' Wrote:
'Pantherinae dateline='' Wrote: Desperate lions wil sometimes eat ofcourse, but it's unusual. I have even seen desperate nomader male Lions eat a hyena.

Still unike leopards Lions will usualy not eat other carnivores just kill them..

I think it all depends on the situation.
I have seen lions actually eat cubs killed, a mother has eaten her own cub killed as well.
When I saw the video, my theory was, Better the cubs mother eats it than a competitor. Kind of out of respect to the cub I guess, if that makes sense.

Male Lions eating cubs from a rival male is probably an act of dominance like some male Lions will after they have killed another male.

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