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Big cat and Bear tale
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First time I ever heard of a jaguar being a habitual bear killer! The more you know...
 (10-22-2016, 10:50 AM)Polar Wrote: First time I ever heard of a jaguar being a habitual bear killer! The more you know... I read once of a snow leopard that killed a Himalayan brown bear. something we must remember is that most bears are not mature boars. Bears are most vulnerable to other large predators during the first few years after their separation from 'Momma Bear'. A young bear must be on constant alert not only for wolves or big cats, but especially for mature male bears. As for jaguars and Andes bears, I have found no records of interactions. I'm not at all certain that they share an environment anywhere.
http://www.sdl.lib.mi.us/history/curwood.html
James Oliver Curwood was an avid hunter long before he became a conservationist. He wrote fiction novels which were based on the real natural world. His book, 'The Grizzly King' ( 1916 ) was made into a popular movie, 'The Bear' in 1988. Of course, the French director, Jean-Jacques took a few liberties ( Disney style ). The book is much more exciting and informative than the movie. Also note that Thor was a real-life grizzly. One of the things that got me to thinking came from a conversation between the two fictional hunters, Langdon ( the older, wiser, more experienced ) and the younger hunter, Bruce. I will not copy word for word from the book; much too lengthly. But here is the gist of it: The old hunter was saying that most books written about grizzlies either make a hunter laugh or make him angry. For example, the idea of a grizzly making his scratch marks on a tree and, supposedly the next boar grizzly that comes along tests his reach against the dominant boar who had made his mark. Utter nonsense! Most grizzly experts today will tell you that a grizzly is not territorial. Curwood had another idea. The dominant boar grizzly is indeed territorial; but the rules of a grizzly are not the same as the rules of a big cat ( big cats not mentioned in the book ). The apex boar grizzly will allow other grizzlies and other predators to live within his domain. After all, while some grizzlies are more predatory than others, no grizzly depends solely on meat. The top grizzly will ignore the other males so long as they stay out of his way. To challenge him over a berry bush, a choice fishing spot, or a female will not go unpunished. He will patrol his kingdom often, making sure that all who live there knows and understands that he is their lord and master. *I am re-posting this ( first posted in 'Survival Skills of Bears' ) as it occurred to me that this might indeed be the cause of at least some of the grizzly/tiger fights in Russia. If a mature male grizzly wanders into the domain of a dominant male tiger will the tiger not attempt to kill or remove the bear? And, if a tiger should decide to hunt within the domain of a dominant boar grizzly, perhaps the tiger may remain and do so just so long as he is submissive to the bear.
This is why I feel certain that had the grizzly found his way into the African savanna and had adapted to life in this arid environment, the lion would remain as the dominant predator. Likewise, if the saber-toothed big cat Smilodon lived in prides as well, in North America, as is widely believed, then that big cat almost certainly would have been avoided by the grizzly.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Tigers eat sloth bears, don’t they?
In India’s jungles tigers sometimes kill sloth bears. And eat them for breakfast – and lunch and dinner if there’s anything left over. Although the shaggy sloth bear, one of four species of bears found in India, has a fearsome reputation for unprovoked aggression, Baloo is obviously no match for Shere Khan. Bear hair in tiger scat is not an unusual sight in forests where the two species coexist. My friend, Dr. K. Yoganand, a wildlife biologist who studied sloth bears in Panna Tiger Reserve in Madhya Pradesh, not only witnessed many aggressive encounters between bears and tigers, he even photographed a tiger feeding on a fresh sloth bear kill. Obviously there is little love lost between the two species, which makes the incident I’m about to narrate rather unique.  *This image is copyright of its original author This tigress (and her two cubs) in Panna fed on this sloth bear kill for four days. Photo by K.Yoganand After what seems like an eternity, but is in fact 20 minutes, we hear the loud woofing alarm calls of a sloth bear from the patch of forest that the chital had been suspicious of. Tense Anticipation in the tower. All binoculars now riveted in the direction of the hidden mystery. Five minutes later a large male tiger steps out of the patch of forest and into the view line, about 200 meters from where we are seated.  *This image is copyright of its original author As we watch in disbelief, it is followed by an obviously agitated sloth bear that begins charging towards the predator. The big cat turns around, and we brace ourselves for a horrendous battle resulting in one very dead bear. Instead, confounding our belief, and standing conventional wisdom on its head, the tiger calmly flops down and contemplates the bear with complete equanimity!  *This image is copyright of its original author The nonplussed bear then walks towards the tiger and, when it has approached it to within spitting distance, rises up on its hind legs.  *This image is copyright of its original author The tiger’s reaction? A big yawn. The anticipated calamity is turning into a comedy, with the bear dancing around the tiger.  The cat regards the bear much like an indulgent Labrador would the family toddler. After shuffling about for a couple of minutes and checking out the tiger from various angles the bear turns around and retreats into patch of forest where it came from. *This image is copyright of its original author At which point the tiger lazily gets to its feet, walks a few yards in the opposite direction, flops to the ground again and goes to sleep.  *This image is copyright of its original author Drama over, we turn to Ullas Karanth and ask him “what the hell was all that about?!”. Here is his interpretation of what took place: “it is likely that the bear had cubs with her in the patch of forest when the tiger crossed paths with them. The woofing alarm call we heard earlier would have been the female warning the tiger off. She probably followed him out into the clearing to make sure he was heading away from her cubs. As for the tiger, his belly was full and he was not interested in food. When not hunting, tigers are often totally disinterested in the presence of prey. I suppose if this cat could feel ‘amusement’, as we did, he probably just found the bear’s antics entertaining. ------------------------------------------ btw Bears are too-much over rated here.They are herbivorous(very little meat content) like deer/boar and on average half the weight and half powerful as buffalo which are regularly hunted by Tigers or Lion pride.
Vinjay wrote:
Tigers eat sloth bears, don’t they? Yes they do, as well as sun bears, Asiatic black bears, giant pandas, and even grizzlies.
The Russian Far East, the taiga, is for me, the most interesting location in the world for wildlife. Here you have the Amur brown bear, also called the Ussuri brown bear or black grizzly ( Ursus arctos lasiotus ), the Amur tiger ( Panthera tigris altaica ), and the Russian wild boar ( Sus scrofa ) all three living within one wilderness location. The black grizzly probably has a normal maximum weight of about 700 pounds, though more normally anywhere between 450 and 550 pounds. The Amur tiger likely has a normal maximum of roughly 500 pounds, though usually within the 400 pound range. The Russian wild boar, the world's second largest omnivore, can range anywhere between 400 and 800 pounds!
Nowhere else on earth's dry land can we find such an assortment of animals. I feel certain that there have been data collected and books written and published in the Russian language from the year 1900 and into the year 2016 about the interspecific relations ( animal interactions ) between the grizzly, the tiger, and the wild boar. there must be very little of this translated into English. Note: this topic is not to debate fight outcomes, but rather to collect any news or scientific data concerning this three mighty denizens of the Russian taiga - in relation to their interactions.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(11-24-2015, 10:04 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: It seems that different scientists, in different studies, from different dates, produce different results. We had gotten a little off-topic for a good portion of this topic; but I agree with GuateGojira concerning the weight of Yellowstone grizzlies - outside of the dumpster-divers. A 597-pound grizzly is no small bear.
The average weight of the Siberian tiger is from 190 kg ( 419 pounds ) and 216 kg ( 476 pounds ). The average weight of the black grizzly is from 193 kg ( 425.5 pounds ) and 264 kg ( 582 pounds ). The size of the black grizzly is pretty much the same as with his American counterpart, the inland grizzly of the temperate regions.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
http://www.redorbit.com/education/reference_library/animal_kingdom/mammalia/1112523651/ussuri-brown-bear-ursus-arctos-lasiotus/
The Ussuri brown bear, sometimes called the black grizzly, can be found in many regions including the Korean Peninsula, Kunashiri Islands, northeastern China, Sakhalin, and the Shantar Islands, among other places. It is a subspecies of the brown bear. The Usurri brown bear is thought to be an ancestor of the North American brown bear, and may have traveled to its current locations from Alaska 13,000 years ago. This bear has many similarities to the Kamchatka brown bear, but its differences include a slightly darker color, a longer skull, cheekbones that are not as separated, and a lower forehead. The skulls of adult males can reach a width of 9.2 inches and a length of up to 15.2 inches. The Ussuri brown bear can differ in size depending on its location; bears in the southern regions of Injeba’k Mountain can weigh up to five hundred and fifty-one pounds, while the bears found north of the mountain can weigh up to 1,322 pounds. The status of the Ussuri brown bear in most of its regions is endangered, except in Russia where the bear is occasionally hunted. In Heilongjiang, there are around 500-1,500 bears, and even with its status as a vulnerable species, is still hunted for its valuable body parts. In Hokkaido, there are five different subpopulations of these bears. The small population in western Ishikari, numbering around 152 bears at most, has been listed as endangered in Japan’s Red Data Book. The population of up to 135 bears in the Teshio-Mashike Mountains has also been listed as endangered. The numbers of Ussuri bears in these regions are so small because of human forestry practices, excessive harvesting, and the construction of roads. In Korea, there are only a few of the Ussuri brown bear left in existence. This has led them to become a national monument. There are two main populations of this bear in North Korea; the JaGang province and HamKyo’ng Mountains. In South Korea, the Ussuri brown bear is extinct, mainly because of poaching. The Ainu people, natives to areas of Japan and Russia, actually worshipped this bear and would perform rituals that included ingesting the bear’s meat and blood. The Ussuri brown bears in Sikhote Alin are known to live in burrows that have been dug into hillsides. They have also been known, although rarely, to dig ground burrows or live in rock outcroppings. This bear has rare encounters with other bears in the area, as it prefers to live at higher elevations. On the Island of Sakhalin, bears will feed on a various number of things. In middle Sakhalin, they will feed on the previous year’s supply of ants, flotsam (or wreckage), and bilberry, and before hibernation will eat mainly rhizomes and tubers from tall grasses. On the southern areas of the island, Ussuri bears will feed on flotsam, maple twigs, and insects. The summer diet will consist of chokeberries and currents. The Ussuri brown bears in Hokkaido will eat many things including fish, small mammals, birds, and even ants. The Ussuri brown bear is known to have interactions with Siberian tigers, as they are sometimes hunted by them. It is thought that the tigers have little impact of the bears because they also exist in small numbers. Typically, attacks from tigers will occur while the bears are hibernating. They are attacked more than small bears because of their tendency to live in more open spaces, and because they cannot climb trees. Tigers are able to kill the bears by latching onto the back, one paw holding onto the chin and the other latching onto the throat. The killing blow is dealt when the tiger bites into the bear’s spinal column. Tigers will eat mainly fatty parts of the bears’ body, including the legs, groin, and back. These attacks typically occur when the tiger’s main prey of hoofed animals have a low population count. Reports of Ussuri brown bears hunting Siberian tigers have been reported. These incidents occur because of disputes over prey or territory. Some bears will change their course if they smell a tiger has passed, while others will follow the tiger’s trail and even sleep in its den. It has even been reported that some Ussuri bears have followed tigers in order to eat the leftovers from its kills. Scientists have dubbed these bears “satellite bears” because of this frequent behavior. The Ussuri brown bear has attacked humans before, and the attacks are well documented. In the Sankebetsu brown bear incident, occurring in Sankei in the Sankebetsu district in December of 1915, seven people were killed. The eight hundred and thirty-seven pound bear attacked twice, killing the second set of victims during the prefuneral vigil being held for the first victims. This incident is thought to be the cause of the bear’s man eating image. During the first fifty-seven years of the 20th century, the Ussuri bear injured three hundred people, and one hundred and forty-one were killed. Read more at http://www.redorbit.com/education/refere...p5LWwUL.99 Reply
About post #10; I have no idea why you would claim that either the Asiatic black bear or the sloth bear is, I would assume you mean pound-for-pound, the strongest of bears. That title would go to either Ursus arctos or Ursus maritimus - IMO the grizzly.
The grizzly has an exceptional hump-of-muscle on his massive shoulders that reinforces his upper body strength. The polar bear has huge arms. The Asiatic black bear and the sloth bear have... a really long, thick, shaggy black coat. 
Due to the presence of tigers and even leopards sometimes, bears in indian subcontinent (sloth bear and asiatic black bear) are known to be extra aggressive than other species of bears. They are known to be vicious fighters. So, i assumed one of them should be strongest pound for pound. But I am really not sure. If you have any studies regarding which bear is the strongest pound for pound i would be glad to read it. You may be right no one knows the truth until studies are published. But i agree grizzly bear has massive shoulder hump. But it should also be remembered that they have thick hairy fur covering all over the body. Also, they have around several inches thick fat layer all over the body. So, the hump is not as impressive as it appears to be. Not trying to make this a versus debate, but check out these massive specimens, i find these tigers to be having the biggest shoulder humps in all carnivorous or omnivorous world with some exceptions of grizzlies almost touching the level. Perhaps you can state your opinion if you agree or not,
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Impressive shoulder hump on grizzlies,  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(12-27-2016, 06:24 PM)parvez Wrote: Due to the presence of tigers and even leopards sometimes, bears in indian subcontinent (sloth bear and asiatic black bear) are known to be extra aggressive than other species of bears. They are known to be vicious fighters. So, i assumed one of them should be strongest pound for pound. But I am really not sure. If you have any studies regarding which bear is the strongest pound for pound i would be glad to read it. You may be right no one knows the truth until studies are published. But i agree grizzly bear has massive shoulder hump. But it should also be remembered that they have thick hairy fur covering all over the body. Also, they have around several inches thick fat layer all over the body. So, the hump is not as impressive as it appears to be. Not trying to make this a versus debate, but check out these massive specimens, i find these tigers to be having the biggest shoulder humps in all carnivorous or omnivorous world with some exceptions of grizzlies almost touching the level. Perhaps you can state your opinion if you agree or not, Tigers (and big cats in general) have shoulder blades with little to no muscle in between them, just like in the pictures you posted. Even larger tigers still have this same feature. Smaller brown bears have similar shoulder hump muscle feature as larger brown bears, just like in the pictures you posted. You sort of proved yourself wrong. Sometimes, the fur may make the grizzly's shoulder hump appear larger than it is, but point is the shoulder hump is a natural, morphological feature of bears in general. Trust me on this, I felt a mound of shoulder muscle on polar bears (although not as big as brown bears) too in my 2014 PBI trip. Also, an aggressive bear isn't stronger than an already strong bear. A mad human isn't pound-for-pound stronger than a calmer chimpanzee.
Grizzlies and polar bears do indeed carry more fat than the other bear species; this is true. However, that extra muscle - the shoulder hump - is very real. As for tigers and bears, the tiger most aggressive towards bears is the Amur tiger. He hunts both grizzlies and Asiatic black bears. You will read from many sources that tigers hunt and kill more brown bears than black bears, but DNA testing of tiger-dung proves them wrong. This was an assumption due to the black bear's tree-climbing ability.
Also note; having predators does not cause great physical strength. That mostly comes from food-finding methods and in male-to-male competition for mating rights. (12-27-2016, 07:23 PM)Polar Wrote: Smaller brown bears have similar shoulder hump muscle feature as larger brown bears, just like in the pictures you posted. You sort of proved yourself wrong. So does smaller tigers from specific areas in India. They too have the shoulder hump as impressive. I agree. Bears have impressive humps. But let me show you (if you are willing) my markings on how much the fur makes it's shoulder hump extra massive than the above mentioned tigers. The blades must be seperate in case of big cats allowing free movement from both paws from the shoulder while a fully muscular shoulder does not allow as much flexible movement as in case of big cats. So, you are comparing a human to sloth bear and chimpanzee to grizzly bear? Are they really that much muscular? |
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