Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity

[Amnon242]

(09-05-2016, 03:15 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Yeah, I think the tigers are bigger, there's some huge ones out there, at least most are probably on average.  Do you know the species of African lion that is thinner, perhaps they vary in design because of the vast varied environment and terrain of the African continent?

I think the tigers have the most muscular arms of any of the bigcats in my opinion, although I don't know if their the strongest for over all strength, its hard to know with the lion as they have the mane covering a lot of the anatomy.  I think the leopards the fastest though, most agile.

I dont know what are the differences between various subspecieses of african lions, I would say that primarily it depends on individual...

BTW I always see that tigers have more muscular arms, while lions have more robust bodies...

I would also say that cougars can be faster and more agile than leopards...but cougars are "small cats". Also snow leopards are very agile Reply

[Amnon242]

(09-05-2016, 05:12 AM)Blackleopard Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 04:57 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 01:27 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: Today I have been to zoo Usti nad Labem (beautifull congo lion called Leon) and spoke to big cat breeder (30+ years of experience). He told me that leopards and snow leopards are shy and try to avoid confontation. Lionesses are quite friendly, but male lions are bold and would confront breeders or other animals at any given opportunuty. On the other hand if you are (psychologically) firm enough, there is a chance that you could repell such an attack. Tigers are most intelligent but unpredictable. According to his opinion the most agressive and dangerous felids are jaguars...he said that jaguars are true killers.

This seems to be the overwhelming opionion,
"Jaguars are killers"!

They are quite the big cat.

That's interesting about the jaguars, had not heard that before, they do seem pretty tough, perhaps they'd beat a leopard in a head to head, I still think though the leopard would have the edge in agility and speed over the Jag.  That doesn't surprise me about the male lions, from what Ive seen posted on various sites, they seem like the toughest cats as far as a mental disposition.  I have heard though, the black panther is the most ferocious as far as any bigcat.

I remember different breeder from different zoo who told me the same - jaguars are the most agressive and dangerous. Also one vet who raised tiger, lion and jaguar said that jaguar was the most dangerous and most dificult to treat. Reply

[Amnon242]

Bleyenberghi. He is called Leon. Not my photo. I love this photo. Reply

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[Amnon242]

I saw this borneo male yesterday. He is 140 kg and one of the biggest orangutans in the world. Very impressive animal. The same goes for tigers and lions of this weight (for those who think that tiger or lion under 200 kg is unimpressive). For example Leon above looks huge but in fact I would be surprised if he is over 160 kg. Reply

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[Blackleopard]

(09-05-2016, 10:43 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 03:15 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Yeah, I think the tigers are bigger, there's some huge ones out there, at least most are probably on average.  Do you know the species of African lion that is thinner, perhaps they vary in design because of the vast varied environment and terrain of the African continent?

I think the tigers have the most muscular arms of any of the bigcats in my opinion, although I don't know if their the strongest for over all strength, its hard to know with the lion as they have the mane covering a lot of the anatomy.  I think the leopards the fastest though, most agile.

I dont know what are the differences between various subspecieses of african lions, I would say that primarily it depends on individual...

BTW I always see that tigers have more muscular arms, while lions have more robust bodies...

I would also say that cougars can be faster and more agile than leopards...but cougars are "small cats". Also snow leopards are very agile

Yeah I totally agree, it seems like the tigers have those hunting muscles worked up, similar to what you sometimes see in the lioness's.  Male lion's seem to be a little out of shape, but yeah they do seem pretty thick in the frame at times, big shoulders, head neck. Reply

[Apollo]

As per scientific and reliable data (wild animals in particular).

Tigers (Bengals and Amurs) have the biggest paws, canines, forearm girths and upperarm girths of any bigcats.
When it comes to chest girths and neck girths its the Bengals which comes first among all bigcats followed by lions and amurs. Reply

[Spalea]

(09-05-2016, 10:50 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 05:12 AM)Blackleopard Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 04:57 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 01:27 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: Today I have been to zoo Usti nad Labem (beautifull congo lion called Leon) and spoke to big cat breeder (30+ years of experience). He told me that leopards and snow leopards are shy and try to avoid confontation. Lionesses are quite friendly, but male lions are bold and would confront breeders or other animals at any given opportunuty. On the other hand if you are (psychologically) firm enough, there is a chance that you could repell such an attack. Tigers are most intelligent but unpredictable. According to his opinion the most agressive and dangerous felids are jaguars...he said that jaguars are true killers.

This seems to be the overwhelming opionion,
"Jaguars are killers"!

They are quite the big cat.

That's interesting about the jaguars, had not heard that before, they do seem pretty tough, perhaps they'd beat a leopard in a head to head, I still think though the leopard would have the edge in agility and speed over the Jag.  That doesn't surprise me about the male lions, from what Ive seen posted on various sites, they seem like the toughest cats as far as a mental disposition.  I have heard though, the black panther is the most ferocious as far as any bigcat.

I remember different breeder from different zoo who told me the same - jaguars are the most agressive and dangerous. Also one vet who raised tiger, lion and jaguar said that jaguar was the most dangerous and most dificult to treat.

I'm a little surprised by what you're saying about jaguars. Im wild, jaguars are not known to be men eaters contrary to tigers, lions and leopards. Even if the fact is there are not circus acts with jaguars... Reply

[Amnon242]

(09-06-2016, 02:20 AM)Spalea Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 10:50 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 05:12 AM)Blackleopard Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 04:57 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(09-05-2016, 01:27 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: Today I have been to zoo Usti nad Labem (beautifull congo lion called Leon) and spoke to big cat breeder (30+ years of experience). He told me that leopards and snow leopards are shy and try to avoid confontation. Lionesses are quite friendly, but male lions are bold and would confront breeders or other animals at any given opportunuty. On the other hand if you are (psychologically) firm enough, there is a chance that you could repell such an attack. Tigers are most intelligent but unpredictable. According to his opinion the most agressive and dangerous felids are jaguars...he said that jaguars are true killers.

This seems to be the overwhelming opionion,
"Jaguars are killers"!

They are quite the big cat.

That's interesting about the jaguars, had not heard that before, they do seem pretty tough, perhaps they'd beat a leopard in a head to head, I still think though the leopard would have the edge in agility and speed over the Jag.  That doesn't surprise me about the male lions, from what Ive seen posted on various sites, they seem like the toughest cats as far as a mental disposition.  I have heard though, the black panther is the most ferocious as far as any bigcat.

I remember different breeder from different zoo who told me the same - jaguars are the most agressive and dangerous. Also one vet who raised tiger, lion and jaguar said that jaguar was the most dangerous and most dificult to treat.

I'm a little surprised by what you're saying about jaguars. Im wild, jaguars are not known to be men eaters contrary to tigers, lions and leopards. Even if the fact is there are not circus acts with jaguars...

I think its very hard to train a jaguar... Reply

[Amnon242]

(09-06-2016, 01:43 AM)Apollo Wrote: As per scientific and reliable data (wild animals in particular).

Tigers (Bengals and Amurs) have the biggest paws, canines, forearm girths and upperarm girths of any bigcats.
When it comes to chest girths and neck girths its the Bengals which comes first among all bigcats followed by lions and amurs.

but when you see tiger and lion of same size, you´ll se that tiger has more muscular arms, while lion has more robust body. Reply

[Blackleopard]

(09-06-2016, 02:25 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:

(09-06-2016, 01:43 AM)Apollo Wrote: As per scientific and reliable data (wild animals in particular).

Tigers (Bengals and Amurs) have the biggest paws, canines, forearm girths and upperarm girths of any bigcats.
When it comes to chest girths and neck girths its the Bengals which comes first among all bigcats followed by lions and amurs.

but when you see tiger and lion of same size, you´ll se that tiger has more muscular arms, while lion has more robust body.

Yeah I agree, the tigers are more muscular in the arms, they have to be, to many pics show that, plus you can see them in real life in some places, I was in Florida, saw some big ones.  But I'm not willing to make a determining factor on which cat is actually stronger, the male lions like you're saying can look very husky.  There was this lion, it was a white lion, it was like 900 lbs in Florida, not neutered, but again it would have to be verified not 100% sure about the validity of that claim.  Another lion down in Florida, really cool place to go, very popular for tourist, BigCat Sarasota, huge lion there, a monster, supposedly almost 800 lbs, verified.  Another young white lion I saw on vacation was over 600 lbs verified by the trainers, probably going to get bigger, which was about the same weight as some of the largest tigers there.  So it hard to say, I was wondering what are the biggest captive tiger weights, the ones that are factual not exaggerated.

Its hard to know whether the more muscular arms of the tiger, would put it over the edge in strength alone, vs say yet a thicker huskier body on a lion, you'd think a thicker a denser framed person is often stronger than a more narrow guy yet with muscular defined arms from curling.  But again its hard to know.  They could end up being equal overall, apparently that trainer Randy Miller thinks so.  But I'm not sure, you also see some pretty thin tigers out there, but yet they're faster.  And that could be because their bodies are thinner, the lion is carrying around perhaps more weight on its frame for its size.

The Siberians are big though, Ive seen them, their all over the place now, so many places have bred them.  I don't think pure bred bengals are as big as Siberians, or the mixed Siberians that are bred in captivity for so long.  Huge heads, huge paws, and consistently the biggest looking cats, but again, its hard to say how much they really weigh vs a large lion of equal size. Reply

[Amnon242]

(09-06-2016, 07:11 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Yeah I agree, the tigers are more muscular in the arms, they have to be, to many pics show that, plus you can see them in real life in some places, I was in Florida, saw some big ones.  But I'm not willing to make a determining factor on which cat is actually stronger, the male lions like you're saying can look very husky.  There was this lion, it was a white lion, it was like 900 lbs in Florida, not neutered, but again it would have to be verified not 100% sure about the validity of that claim.  Another lion down in Florida, really cool place to go, very popular for tourist, BigCat Sarasota, huge lion there, a monster, supposedly almost 800 lbs, verified.  Another young white lion I saw on vacation was over 600 lbs verified by the trainers, probably going to get bigger, which was about the same weight as some of the largest tigers there.  So it hard to say, I was wondering what are the biggest captive tiger weights, the ones that are factual not exaggerated.

Its hard to know whether the more muscular arms of the tiger, would put it over the edge in strength alone, vs say yet a thicker huskier body on a lion, you'd think a thicker a denser framed person is often stronger than a more narrow guy yet with muscular defined arms from curling.  But again its hard to know.  They could end up being equal overall, apparently that trainer Randy Miller thinks so.  But I'm not sure, you also see some pretty thin tigers out there, but yet they're faster.  And that could be because their bodies are thinner, the lion is carrying around perhaps more weight on its frame for its size.

The Siberians are big though, Ive seen them, their all over the place now, so many places have bred them.  I don't think pure bred bengals are as big as Siberians, or the mixed Siberians that are bred in captivity for so long.  Huge heads, huge paws, and consistently the biggest looking cats, but again, its hard to say how much they really weigh vs a large lion of equal size.

Vratislav Mazak, one of the biggest big cat experts ever, wrote in his book Velke kocky a gepardi (Big Cats and Cheetahs) that tiger is extremely strong felid and that power of his legs does not have analogy among felids. One former employee of Zoo Prague told me that tigers are incredibly strong, ho told me how amur tiger bent strong iron bars and all the staff were in shock because they thought that something like that would be impossible.

Im sceptical when I read about 800 or 900 lbs felids. 200 kg (or 440 lbs) felid is huge. 250 kg (550 lbs) felid is very huge. 300 kg (650 lbs) is extremely large felid and this is the limit for non obese felids. According to my experience the weight data from zoos are quite reliable, while private breeders have tendency to overestimate the size of their felids... Reply

[Amnon242]

amur male 4yo Reply

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[Blackleopard]

Yeah totally, there seems to be a lot of exaggerated weights, that's why I was wondering what are the top validated weights for captive Siberian tigers, not neutered.  It would be interesting as well to see the measurement thickness on just the bones, would a tigers forearm bone be thicker than a lion, or is it just the muscle that is thicker?

At Bigcat Sarasota, according to the trainer, this lion Handsome weighs well over 700 lbs, it doesn't appear to be fat at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx6moRX3Nhg Reply

[Amnon242]

Well over 700 lbs? Never ... :-)

BTW how tall is the man?

Yes, the lion looks huge, but you have to look carefully and imagine the lion without the impressive mane.

BTW he says that the white tiger is 650 lbs, but I see a completely average tiger. Reply

[Amnon242]

This male is really very impressive animal. Pure muscle. Obviously bigger than fully grown african lion in next cage. The tiger is 220 kg (or 500 lbs) Reply

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