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11-04-2024, 10:10 PM( This post was last modified: 11-04-2024, 10:16 PM by Tr1x24 )
(11-04-2024, 09:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: they can remain in power until their current offspring are independent.
We will see what will they do, they have been with Kambulas already for almost 3 yrs, subs will be 2 yrs old and closing to independence.
Ntsevu cubs are small, but as we saw with Styxs and SP they dont shy away from abandoning young offspring if new opportunities arrise.
Problem is, there no clear weak neighbours around them, they are all in equal numbers, or outnumbered.
So, they might just stay and sire next generation with Kambulas, like 2 BBoys tried to do, but they are oldest coalition in the area, so clock is working against them for potentially rising that 2nd generation.
Also, if 4 Kambulas build stronghold north, PCMs only area to expand is Ndhzengas territory.
Same for Gijimas, who have Nkhulus to the east (they might go south but kinda doubt that, theres not much prides around Skukuza).
So in near future, they might get heavily pressured from multiple sides, as Kambula females will prob return back in estrus in a year or so.
11-04-2024, 11:27 PM( This post was last modified: 11-04-2024, 11:32 PM by BA0701 )
(11-04-2024, 09:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Thing about the Ndhzengas, I think, is that they don't chicken out to anyone.
Most males will be reluctant to keep charging until they come to blows, if the other lions are also charging.
The lion instincts will be like "hey if these lions are charging at us they must be strong and dangerous, otherwise they'd be running, so I better run myself".
Even the PCM who are males that liked to act this way, charging without a second thought to intimidate the opposition, and seemed confident in a fight, being big and powerful, were like "damn they are charging back, maybe we should be more cautious here."
Ndhzengas are just way too confident, if they don't deteriorate soon and aren't unlucky to get catch alone, I find it difficult to see them getting ousted if not being outnumbered, they can remain in power until their current offspring are independent.
Still, these very bold and confident males are also the ones who usually get caught and killed. Like, if PCM or Mantimahle had held their ground until they forced a fight, then suddenly in a brawl, things would be tough against such big, strong lions.
Still these Ndhzengas probably won't abandon each other and in a 2v2, even if they get dominated in the fight, they aren't likely getting killed or badly injured. 1v1 fights between lions rarely end up with serious injuries.
I felt the same way about the S Avocas, though I believe they were a little bigger than the Nwas, and bulkier as well, especially the one who perished. Though, I have never seen the Nwas when they were not in peak physical condition, every time we see them, including just recently, they look fantastic.
To this day I do not believe the S Avocas ever abandoned one another. When we saw the remaining S Avoca, at the time when the other first disappeared, he had injuries implying he'd been in a fight with someone. Given how close they were, having been at each other's side their entire lives, I think he was at his side until the bitter end. I see the Nwas as being equally close, and the PCMs for that matter (until just recently, when we have begun seeing them being far away from one another), so whatever happens in their future, I would expect them to go through it together.
(11-03-2024, 08:07 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Wow, Ndhzengas chased the Mantimahles? And in Mantimahle-ish territory? ( certainly not Ndhzenga territory ).
People were hyping Mantimahle's as possibly the strongest duo where I was saying we don't know much about them and PCM were also seen in the same way until they met a strong duo.
I guess everybody may look like the strongest while dealing with nomads, reason why we should judge more based on how they interact with other dominant males.
Anyway, to think back in the day I didn't thought the Ndhzenga duo was very strong as I thought their strength was mostly in numbers and they had not had the opportunity to show how they perform in even numbers.
But here we are, they've made all Mantimahle sons run lol, from PCM to Nkhulu to Mantimahle jrs.
I actually shouldn't be surprised considering how Gijimas seems to respect them and I always thought Gijimas were the strongest.
For me it was the feeling/vibe I got from them, rather than anything they had specifically done. They gave the impression of being lions that you don't want to mess with.
But I guess the mean Mantimahtle stare didn't phase the Ndzengas. Mala Mala is prime territory, and tough to hold, and there must be a reason they've successfully held onto it for this long. I guess they've got that something that's a little harder to identify. Whatever it is, other duos seem reluctant to mess with them.
I do not understand what is hard to identify? A lot of comments I had read is the size and numbers of male lions. Ndhzenga are prime experienced lions. Also the manes the better and the nicer the manes; it can show the status of a male lion. Ndhzenga male lions have black manes and physically they look fit. Ndhzenga male lion have very black manes they look like strong male lions.
Males in their prime. Experienced. Full, black manes. Physically fit and look strong. You haven't mentioned anything that the Mantimahtle males don't have. Plus the latter are probably bigger. That's what I mean. There must be something about the Ndzengas that isn't the obvious things like all mentioned above.
(11-04-2024, 09:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Thing about the Ndhzengas, I think, is that they don't chicken out to anyone.
Most males will be reluctant to keep charging until they come to blows, if the other lions are also charging.
The lion instincts will be like "hey if these lions are charging at us they must be strong and dangerous, otherwise they'd be running, so I better run myself".
Even the PCM who are males that liked to act this way, charging without a second thought to intimidate the opposition, and seemed confident in a fight, being big and powerful, were like "damn they are charging back, maybe we should be more cautious here."
Ndhzengas are just way too confident, if they don't deteriorate soon and aren't unlucky to get catch alone, I find it difficult to see them getting ousted if not being outnumbered, they can remain in power until their current offspring are independent.
Still, these very bold and confident males are also the ones who usually get caught and killed. Like, if PCM or Mantimahle had held their ground until they forced a fight, then suddenly in a brawl, things would be tough against such big, strong lions.
Still these Ndhzengas probably won't abandon each other and in a 2v2, even if they get dominated in the fight, they aren't likely getting killed or badly injured. 1v1 fights between lions rarely end up with serious injuries.
They're always up for a fight. So when the PC males finally came across males that actually wanted to fight them (or at least appeared to), it made them suddenly cautious in a way they hadn't been before. Might be similar with the Mantimahtle males, as we don't know much about their experience or history. But as @Tr1x24 the fact that they were ambushed was probably a big factor. Plus we've all seen the size of Amahle's head, that must be quite intimidating.
Yeah I don't see these two abandoning each other to get killed. Their bond, teamwork and the fact that they're not afraid to charge in would make that very unlikely to happen, in my opinion. But of course anything can happen. Let's hope it doesn't.
(11-03-2024, 08:07 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Wow, Ndhzengas chased the Mantimahles? And in Mantimahle-ish territory? ( certainly not Ndhzenga territory ).
People were hyping Mantimahle's as possibly the strongest duo where I was saying we don't know much about them and PCM were also seen in the same way until they met a strong duo.
I guess everybody may look like the strongest while dealing with nomads, reason why we should judge more based on how they interact with other dominant males.
Anyway, to think back in the day I didn't thought the Ndhzenga duo was very strong as I thought their strength was mostly in numbers and they had not had the opportunity to show how they perform in even numbers.
But here we are, they've made all Mantimahle sons run lol, from PCM to Nkhulu to Mantimahle jrs.
I actually shouldn't be surprised considering how Gijimas seems to respect them and I always thought Gijimas were the strongest.
For me it was the feeling/vibe I got from them, rather than anything they had specifically done. They gave the impression of being lions that you don't want to mess with.
But I guess the mean Mantimahtle stare didn't phase the Ndzengas. Mala Mala is prime territory, and tough to hold, and there must be a reason they've successfully held onto it for this long. I guess they've got that something that's a little harder to identify. Whatever it is, other duos seem reluctant to mess with them.
I do not understand what is hard to identify? A lot of comments I had read is the size and numbers of male lions. Ndhzenga are prime experienced lions. Also the manes the better and the nicer the manes; it can show the status of a male lion. Ndhzenga male lions have black manes and physically they look fit. Ndhzenga male lion have very black manes they look like strong male lions.
Males in their prime. Experienced. Full, black manes. Physically fit and look strong. You haven't mentioned anything that the Mantimahtle males don't have. Plus the latter are probably bigger. That's what I mean. There must be something about the Ndzengas that isn't the obvious things like all mentioned above.
Hi I was actually going to say; the Mantimahatle male lions. I see the Mantimahatle like the Ndhzenga male lions. Experienced and very black manes also beautiful male lions. Only difference is size, Mantimahatle male lions are 9 years of age? Ndhzenga male lions when fighting how much different can it be? They are strong male lions. another thing I am not an expert, is seeing seems male lions more brothers more experienced more confident when once they have cubs and with lionesses. Ndhzenga male lions have been together.
(11-03-2024, 08:07 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Wow, Ndhzengas chased the Mantimahles? And in Mantimahle-ish territory? ( certainly not Ndhzenga territory ).
People were hyping Mantimahle's as possibly the strongest duo where I was saying we don't know much about them and PCM were also seen in the same way until they met a strong duo.
I guess everybody may look like the strongest while dealing with nomads, reason why we should judge more based on how they interact with other dominant males.
Anyway, to think back in the day I didn't thought the Ndhzenga duo was very strong as I thought their strength was mostly in numbers and they had not had the opportunity to show how they perform in even numbers.
But here we are, they've made all Mantimahle sons run lol, from PCM to Nkhulu to Mantimahle jrs.
I actually shouldn't be surprised considering how Gijimas seems to respect them and I always thought Gijimas were the strongest.
For me it was the feeling/vibe I got from them, rather than anything they had specifically done. They gave the impression of being lions that you don't want to mess with.
But I guess the mean Mantimahtle stare didn't phase the Ndzengas. Mala Mala is prime territory, and tough to hold, and there must be a reason they've successfully held onto it for this long. I guess they've got that something that's a little harder to identify. Whatever it is, other duos seem reluctant to mess with them.
I do not understand what is hard to identify? A lot of comments I had read is the size and numbers of male lions. Ndhzenga are prime experienced lions. Also the manes the better and the nicer the manes; it can show the status of a male lion. Ndhzenga male lions have black manes and physically they look fit. Ndhzenga male lion have very black manes they look like strong male lions.
Males in their prime. Experienced. Full, black manes. Physically fit and look strong. You haven't mentioned anything that the Mantimahtle males don't have. Plus the latter are probably bigger. That's what I mean. There must be something about the Ndzengas that isn't the obvious things like all mentioned above.
Hi I was actually going to say; the Mantimahatle male lions. I see the Mantimahatle like the Ndhzenga male lions. Experienced and very black manes also beautiful male lions. Only difference is size, Mantimahatle male lions are 9 years of age? Ndhzenga male lions when fighting how much different can it be? They are strong male lions. another thing I am not an expert, is seeing seems male lions more brothers more experienced more confident when once they have cubs and with lionesses. Ndhzenga male lions have been together.
Absolutely. The Ndzengas, Mantimahtles, Gijimas, PCs... it's impossible to say who would win in an actual fight. All very fit, healthy, aggressive males. The fact that actual fights don't seem to happen would suggest they all sense they're pretty evenly matched. As for the Mantimahtle's age, they might be a bit younger than the Ndzengas (8), but don't quote me on that.
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We know lions can "feel" or "sense" the "power levels" of other males through the roars and scent, they can tell if the lion is old, young, prime, healthy, and so on, so that's a thing.
Still, in the case of the Ndhzengas, I think they are just that confident, so things work out in their favor in clashes where confidence is almost everything.
The theory on the ambush thing is interesting, I think there's some truth to it but I'm not fully convinced. Lions will sometimes get chased for kilometers after being "ambushed", I doubt the surprise effect would keep on in most cases. See the Gijimas and Nkhulus. Gijima ambushed the Nkhulu, ST Nkhulu was ready to ran but in a matter of seconds, both sides realized it was 5v2 and the Gijimsa retreated instead with the Nkhulu giving chase.
Or Kambulsa recently ambushing the Kruger male. Kruger male stood his ground, it was only when he realized he was outnumbered and surrounded, that he ran.
Of the top of my head I can remember multiple instances where the defending party won despite being "ambushed".
Shaka Mbiri tried to steal that giraffe from the Mbiri pride and Tintswalos, but was chased off; Mbiris themselves back in their "subhood" chased the Giraffe pride from a carcass until they got ambushed by the dominant males, the 2 Mapoza tried to take the kill but got chased off by the Mbiris; Or back in the Mapogo times, the 2 OG Gijimas ambushed Mr.T and KT in a kill, but were chased off by the Mlowathi.
We don't even need to use adult male lions as example, not long ago the 2 Nkuhuma Breakaways tried to steal a kill from the Ximungwe, but ended up getting chased off instead.
I don't doubt that the Mantimahle were potentially, initially surprised, but they for sure realized they were up against just 2 males, but decided on fleeing anyway.
(11-03-2024, 08:07 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Wow, Ndhzengas chased the Mantimahles? And in Mantimahle-ish territory? ( certainly not Ndhzenga territory ).
People were hyping Mantimahle's as possibly the strongest duo where I was saying we don't know much about them and PCM were also seen in the same way until they met a strong duo.
I guess everybody may look like the strongest while dealing with nomads, reason why we should judge more based on how they interact with other dominant males.
Anyway, to think back in the day I didn't thought the Ndhzenga duo was very strong as I thought their strength was mostly in numbers and they had not had the opportunity to show how they perform in even numbers.
But here we are, they've made all Mantimahle sons run lol, from PCM to Nkhulu to Mantimahle jrs.
I actually shouldn't be surprised considering how Gijimas seems to respect them and I always thought Gijimas were the strongest.
For me it was the feeling/vibe I got from them, rather than anything they had specifically done. They gave the impression of being lions that you don't want to mess with.
But I guess the mean Mantimahtle stare didn't phase the Ndzengas. Mala Mala is prime territory, and tough to hold, and there must be a reason they've successfully held onto it for this long. I guess they've got that something that's a little harder to identify. Whatever it is, other duos seem reluctant to mess with them.
I do not understand what is hard to identify? A lot of comments I had read is the size and numbers of male lions. Ndhzenga are prime experienced lions. Also the manes the better and the nicer the manes; it can show the status of a male lion. Ndhzenga male lions have black manes and physically they look fit. Ndhzenga male lion have very black manes they look like strong male lions.
Males in their prime. Experienced. Full, black manes. Physically fit and look strong. You haven't mentioned anything that the Mantimahtle males don't have. Plus the latter are probably bigger. That's what I mean. There must be something about the Ndzengas that isn't the obvious things like all mentioned above.
Hi I was actually going to say; the Mantimahatle male lions. I see the Mantimahatle like the Ndhzenga male lions. Experienced and very black manes also beautiful male lions. Only difference is size, Mantimahatle male lions are 9 years of age? Ndhzenga male lions when fighting how much different can it be? They are strong male lions. another thing I am not an expert, is seeing seems male lions more brothers more experienced more confident when once they have cubs and with lionesses. Ndhzenga male lions have been together.
Absolutely. The Ndzengas, Mantimahtles, Gijimas, PCs... it's impossible to say who would win in an actual fight. All very fit, healthy, aggressive males. The fact that actual fights don't seem to happen would suggest they all sense they're pretty evenly matched. As for the Mantimahtle's age, they might be a bit younger than the Ndzengas (8), but don't quote me on that.
not sure of the age, but if the plain camp male lions are younger than the Mantimahtles; they must be at least nine years of age. I have read they are the older lions to the plain camp male lions. I get the feeling they are a bit older than the Ndhzenga male lions. Might be the same age. I read the other comment. Observing the Ndhzenga male lions roars it is strong confident. I remember I saw a video of the Ndhzenga male lions at 8 years of age roaring. Roars were strong and loud. Strength and energy was in roaring by Ndhzenga male lions. they did not seem worried and were wanted to be heard. Roars from Ndhzenga male lions were warning signs from observing, and from roaring wanted to show strength. I think they have the very best roars. Roars looked to me like they were saying I am here can you hear; they wanted to be heard. Just many strong lions.
(11-05-2024, 10:22 AM)Guillermo94 Wrote: not sure of the age, but if the plain camp male lions are younger than the Mantimahtles; they must be at least nine years of age. I have read they are the older lions to the plain camp male lions. I get the feeling they are a bit older than the Ndhzenga male lions.
Ndhzengas are estimated to be born around mid to late 2015.
Mantimahle sons are somewhere in 2016, prob mid.
So Mantimahles are roughly ~ 1 year younger than Ndhzengas, and ~ 1 year older than PCMs.
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