There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(08-11-2024, 09:00 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: K2, Ntsevu lioness after the wrong end of a hunt gone badly
She is the mother of the 4 new cubs.
the muscle seems intact wich makes me wonder how did this happend, a warthog tusk maybe? anyway this one really hits home, more so due to the 4 little ones, this is probably to big of an injury to keep it from getting infected uhh if only she was in Kenya...
We've definitely seen a lot of injuries like this, caused by those warthogs, not an easy prey at all, not that any are "easy". One of the Othawa girls recently almost lost an eye, with a deep gash, from one. Warthog was the first animal that came to my mind when I saw the injury, their tusks are literally razor sharp, and they know how to use them. Similar to the wild hogs I grew up around, in Florida, only on a much larger scale, and those Florida hogs will literally just flick their nose, and next thing you know blood is pouring out, it happens in the blink of an eye.
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Damn that's a nasty wound. Hopefully it closes up before any infections set in.
With regards to veterinary intervention, I have always believed that it is better to let Mother Nature take its course.
Yes lions are threatened, but that is due to habitat loss, human-wildlife conflict and poaching. Not natural mortality. If we intervene in natural injuries with this Kambula female, for example, where does it end? Pretty soon it will set a precedent whereby every known lion in the ecosystem gets vet treatment every time it picks up a natural injury. My issue with that is it eats away at resources that are better used to combat the human-related threats, which I believe are far more urgent and important to address.
I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
I believe my wishing for the veterinary intervention is likely the result of the softy I seem to be turning into, as I age. I am not opposed to the position you have stated, in fact I understand it entirely, this was just a case of my openly sharing my wishes. A few years back, I had an opposite view, never wishing harm on any creatures, but, more taking a "that is nature taking it's course" position. Over the past several years, my stance appears to have softened considerably, outside of my control.
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Speaking of lion populations in crisis, is that why vets intervene in the Masai Mara?
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Speaking of lion populations in crisis, is that why vets intervene in the Masai Mara?
I don't follow Mara lions dynamics but my impression is they readily intervene veterinary there which improves individual lions longevity/helping them keeping their hierarchical status, thus creating new and new stars (they name lions too) to draw attention to which also makes it that there is less vacant spaces to fill for the new generation and there is then more competition and conflict, which draw attention as well (some lions fans follow african lions for the lion warfare aspect of it for the most part). So in the end they are indirectly pitting those individuals against each other for one reason or another.
But as I said I don't follow Mara so I might be unjustly simplifying things and for sure Mara and Kruger ecosystems and even lions themselves are different.
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Speaking of lion populations in crisis, is that why vets intervene in the Masai Mara?
I don't follow Mara lions dynamics but my impression is they readily intervene veterinary there which improves individual lions longevity/helping them keeping their hierarchical status, thus creating new and new stars (they name lions too) to draw attention to which also makes it that there is less vacant spaces to fill for the new generation and there is then more competition and conflict, which draw attention as well (some lions fans follow african lions for the lion warfare aspect of it for the most part). So in the end they are indirectly pitting those individuals against each other for one reason or another.
But as I said I don't follow Mara so I might be unjustly simplifying things and for sure Mara and Kruger ecosystems and even lions themselves are different.
Thank you for responding, my friend. I have always been curious about the Mara situation but there doesn't seem to be much info on that available online
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
I believe my wishing for the veterinary intervention is likely the result of the softy I seem to be turning into, as I age. I am not opposed to the position you have stated, in fact I understand it entirely, this was just a case of my openly sharing my wishes. A few years back, I had an opposite view, never wishing harm on any creatures, but, more taking a "that is nature taking it's course" position. Over the past several years, my stance appears to have softened considerably, outside of my control.
I get that. For me if you intervene you are getting responsible for the outcome and have to live with the consequences. Thinking about it like adding a fish into a fishtank, if it is uncompatible with others it might turn out to be a death sentence for someone in limited space but endless food provided, while in a reserve the space is not an obvious issue but the resources are limited, so niches and territories are for the most past filled and secured and there is a limited aount of them. Granted the ecosystem is not entirely natural and there is constant human influence anyway, some more direct like poaching, shooting animals dangerous for humans as well as undirect one (artificial dams, roads, vehicle presence, time when some fences were torn down creating join areas) which are often quite unavoidable but might influence the balance of the ecosystem in the long run a bit, not necessarily negatively or positively, likely both for different actors.
Another issue is where to draw a line, what should be treated, what looks bad but is superficial, what is bad but might be hidden, what is ovious but is it treatable. There were for sure worse heartbreaking cases like the young male with nonfunctioning rear legs, who were dragging himself following his natal pride, sad scene, then what can be done and why it can be done. We luckily don't have to be present and deal with situation at the spot and can much more easily look away. Another issue with lions and wild animals in general is how resilient they are so it is hard to gauge what is already a lost cause and humane thing would be to end the suffering and what is something that the animals can get through and heal itself without (thus needless) intervention, typically most of the cuts and wounds that prove to be superficial (which seems to be the case with this one as well, the torn skin just make it seem infection could get in). In addition there is the independence factor, some might be left alone too young (and have nobody to find and rejoin) to cater for themselves but otherwiese ok, some might surprise us like Othawas, some might dissapear anyway like most of the Mhangeni 12 and some prove to not having a fighting chance like the ast Sparta pride cub (which as far as intervention goes for me in ideal world, so not current South Africa, would be case where intervening aka removing the individual from the ecosystem would have minimal impact on it - the little female was doomed and would not play any role in lion dynamics barring miracle and odd behaviour from other lions and her only impact would be how many small cirtter she would catch trying to feed herself and the nutritional value of her body - and might have a conservation value being saved as a new blood in a captive conservation breeding program; but I am not naive that such thing could happen in today world in the first place without something going wrong and guaranteed backlash). Also the more often you intervene the more you jeopardize the habituation of animals towards vehicles and if we go to somewhat absurd levels, it could even become a competitive edge for animals being bad at avoiding sleeping darts and getting regualr treatment in similar fashion like it is beneficiary for elephants to have smaller or no tusks due to poaching and in turn general wild population of the species now looks different with significantly shorter tusks on average.
So I would say the hard thing is where to stop once you start doing these. It still gets accidently done like in case of Blondie Avoca being treated for a suspect shot wound, which was of natural cause in the end, but ofc they cleaned the wound etc. if they already slept him, no problem with that, it probably didn't get him any advantage anyway apart from feeling more comfortable a bit sooner, his TB condition was his eventual demise (which technically is a human caused thing in the end, though).
08-13-2024, 10:12 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2024, 10:12 PM by BA0701 )
(08-13-2024, 09:22 PM)RookiePundit Wrote:
(08-12-2024, 07:43 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
I believe my wishing for the veterinary intervention is likely the result of the softy I seem to be turning into, as I age. I am not opposed to the position you have stated, in fact I understand it entirely, this was just a case of my openly sharing my wishes. A few years back, I had an opposite view, never wishing harm on any creatures, but, more taking a "that is nature taking it's course" position. Over the past several years, my stance appears to have softened considerably, outside of my control.
I get that. For me if you intervene you are getting responsible for the outcome and have to live with the consequences. Thinking about it like adding a fish into a fishtank, if it is uncompatible with others it might turn out to be a death sentence for someone in limited space but endless food provided, while in a reserve the space is not an obvious issue but the resources are limited, so niches and territories are for the most past filled and secured and there is a limited aount of them. Granted the ecosystem is not entirely natural and there is constant human influence anyway, some more direct like poaching, shooting animals dangerous for humans as well as undirect one (artificial dams, roads, vehicle presence, time when some fences were torn down creating join areas) which are often quite unavoidable but might influence the balance of the ecosystem in the long run a bit, not necessarily negatively or positively, likely both for different actors.
Another issue is where to draw a line, what should be treated, what looks bad but is superficial, what is bad but might be hidden, what is ovious but is it treatable. There were for sure worse heartbreaking cases like the young male with nonfunctioning rear legs, who were dragging himself following his natal pride, sad scene, then what can be done and why it can be done. We luckily don't have to be present and deal with situation at the spot and can much more easily look away. Another issue with lions and wild animals in general is how resilient they are so it is hard to gauge what is already a lost cause and humane thing would be to end the suffering and what is something that the animals can get through and heal itself without (thus needless) intervention, typically most of the cuts and wounds that prove to be superficial (which seems to be the case with this one as well, the torn skin just make it seem infection could get in). In addition there is the independence factor, some might be left alone too young (and have nobody to find and rejoin) to cater for themselves but otherwiese ok, some might surprise us like Othawas, some might dissapear anyway like most of the Mhangeni 12 and some prove to not having a fighting chance like the ast Sparta pride cub (which as far as intervention goes for me in ideal world, so not current South Africa, would be case where intervening aka removing the individual from the ecosystem would have minimal impact on it - the little female was doomed and would not play any role in lion dynamics barring miracle and odd behaviour from other lions and her only impact would be how many small cirtter she would catch trying to feed herself and the nutritional value of her body - and might have a conservation value being saved as a new blood in a captive conservation breeding program; but I am not naive that such thing could happen in today world in the first place without something going wrong and guaranteed backlash). Also the more often you intervene the more you jeopardize the habituation of animals towards vehicles and if we go to somewhat absurd levels, it could even become a competitive edge for animals being bad at avoiding sleeping darts and getting regualr treatment in similar fashion like it is beneficiary for elephants to have smaller or no tusks due to poaching and in turn general wild population of the species now looks different with significantly shorter tusks on average.
So I would say the hard thing is where to stop once you start doing these. It still gets accidently done like in case of Blondie Avoca being treated for a suspect shot wound, which was of natural cause in the end, but ofc they cleaned the wound etc. if they already slept him, no problem with that, it probably didn't get him any advantage anyway apart from feeling more comfortable a bit sooner, his TB condition was his eventual demise (which technically is a human caused thing in the end, though).
Very well said, my friend, and I fully understand it all. Our declining years seem to spare us no indignities, and seems to soften our stance on many things such as this, at least that has been the case for myself. Perhaps it is just the result of learning more about these creatures over time, our beginning to see them as individuals, with a face and often times a name, that makes us more invested in their successes and failures. While I understand everything you said, as I used to feel the exact same way, something certainly seems to have changed in recent years, especially this past year more than any previous.
(08-12-2024, 06:33 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I don't think the wound itself is not as bad as it looks, I concur that the issue is, it might get easily infected. In addition 4 curious cubs might add to the discomfort.
I am on the side of not intervening. This is natural, sucks for the impacted individuals, but even if this eventually leads to Ntsevu pride becoming weaker and possibly eventually die out, it would be natural outcome of lion dynamics then. Or we might get another bounce back against odds story like with last Othawas. Strictly speaking intervening and potentially changing the outcome of this injury might eventually lead to Ntsevus outcompeting a rival pride (or other unforeseeable events) and thus undirectly stacking odds against other individuals intraspecific and interspecific as well, not just for prey species but for other predators as well. Overall Sabi Sands lions population is not currently in crisis, at least numbers wise, with abundant of cubs and established coalitions to protect them (not always being good at it) with sense of stability. Ntsevu bunch for me is easy to root for, I hope both the lioness and subsequently the little guys make it, but if it come to the the worst scenario, that litter has a sibling, many half siblings and different sorts of cousins in both Kambula and Ntsevu prides so there is no valid reason to protect them specifically as there is no indication this is caused by humans.
I believe my wishing for the veterinary intervention is likely the result of the softy I seem to be turning into, as I age. I am not opposed to the position you have stated, in fact I understand it entirely, this was just a case of my openly sharing my wishes. A few years back, I had an opposite view, never wishing harm on any creatures, but, more taking a "that is nature taking it's course" position. Over the past several years, my stance appears to have softened considerably, outside of my control.
I get that. For me if you intervene you are getting responsible for the outcome and have to live with the consequences. Thinking about it like adding a fish into a fishtank, if it is uncompatible with others it might turn out to be a death sentence for someone in limited space but endless food provided, while in a reserve the space is not an obvious issue but the resources are limited, so niches and territories are for the most past filled and secured and there is a limited aount of them. Granted the ecosystem is not entirely natural and there is constant human influence anyway, some more direct like poaching, shooting animals dangerous for humans as well as undirect one (artificial dams, roads, vehicle presence, time when some fences were torn down creating join areas) which are often quite unavoidable but might influence the balance of the ecosystem in the long run a bit, not necessarily negatively or positively, likely both for different actors.
Another issue is where to draw a line, what should be treated, what looks bad but is superficial, what is bad but might be hidden, what is ovious but is it treatable. There were for sure worse heartbreaking cases like the young male with nonfunctioning rear legs, who were dragging himself following his natal pride, sad scene, then what can be done and why it can be done. We luckily don't have to be present and deal with situation at the spot and can much more easily look away. Another issue with lions and wild animals in general is how resilient they are so it is hard to gauge what is already a lost cause and humane thing would be to end the suffering and what is something that the animals can get through and heal itself without (thus needless) intervention, typically most of the cuts and wounds that prove to be superficial (which seems to be the case with this one as well, the torn skin just make it seem infection could get in). In addition there is the independence factor, some might be left alone too young (and have nobody to find and rejoin) to cater for themselves but otherwiese ok, some might surprise us like Othawas, some might dissapear anyway like most of the Mhangeni 12 and some prove to not having a fighting chance like the ast Sparta pride cub (which as far as intervention goes for me in ideal world, so not current South Africa, would be case where intervening aka removing the individual from the ecosystem would have minimal impact on it - the little female was doomed and would not play any role in lion dynamics barring miracle and odd behaviour from other lions and her only impact would be how many small cirtter she would catch trying to feed herself and the nutritional value of her body - and might have a conservation value being saved as a new blood in a captive conservation breeding program; but I am not naive that such thing could happen in today world in the first place without something going wrong and guaranteed backlash). Also the more often you intervene the more you jeopardize the habituation of animals towards vehicles and if we go to somewhat absurd levels, it could even become a competitive edge for animals being bad at avoiding sleeping darts and getting regualr treatment in similar fashion like it is beneficiary for elephants to have smaller or no tusks due to poaching and in turn general wild population of the species now looks different with significantly shorter tusks on average.
So I would say the hard thing is where to stop once you start doing these. It still gets accidently done like in case of Blondie Avoca being treated for a suspect shot wound, which was of natural cause in the end, but ofc they cleaned the wound etc. if they already slept him, no problem with that, it probably didn't get him any advantage anyway apart from feeling more comfortable a bit sooner, his TB condition was his eventual demise (which technically is a human caused thing in the end, though).
Very well said, my friend, and I fully understand it all. Our declining years seem to spare us no indignities, and seems to soften our stance on many things such as this, at least that has been the case for myself. Perhaps it is just the result of learning more about these creatures over time, our beginning to see them as individuals, with a face and often times a name, that makes us more invested in their successes and failures. While I understand everything you said, as I used to feel the exact same way, something certainly seems to have changed in recent years, especially this past year more than any previous.
Sure, as one matures (perhaps :) ), appreciates things more. It just how much can one manage/afford to look away.
(08-15-2024, 08:48 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: Update on the Ntsevu pride. Apparently the 4 younger cubs are 1M 3F. Photos taken 22nd June, credits to Nick Tennick.
(08-15-2024, 08:48 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: Update on the Ntsevu pride. Apparently the 4 younger cubs are 1M 3F. Photos taken 22nd June, credits to Nick Tennick.
We'll have two separate prides the massive size of the old Kambula Pride, before you know it.
What do you mean a split? Has K2 been seen with her her cubs? Interesting if it is meant to be the youngest of the Kambula could join with the youngest from the Mahangeni pride. There is only 2 male lions ? Maybe they might form a bond, but wouldn’t the older one leave earlier ?
