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(05-06-2015, 04:55 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Amazing Pantherinae!! I think it's great to honor this males, they were true legends.
And to start this, the other day in facebook, Karin van der Merwe(the woman who witnessed the fight between the Mapogo and the Majingilane, she talked about it in Natgeo "Caught in the wild" ) she said that soon a documentary about the Mapogo will be aired. She didn't said anything else, but if it's true it will be great to have a good documentary that speaks the truth about male lions.
and guys all good? I would like to ask a question for those who understand the history of the mapogos well, I really like to study, does anyone know how many deaths the mapogos made against mature adult male lions? any real estimates?
I’ve never counted but I’ve seen a few people post about it not sure how true it is but it’s not as much as you think and 100 lions killed in a year or whatever is a lie the movie makers made up but over their entire reign maybe a lot of lions died by the jaws of the mapogos but male lions at least 5 but I could be wrong
(03-29-2023, 09:58 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Among the many "adventures" the Mapogos had, one of the most intriguing to me ( maybe because of it being somehow mysterious ) is the reported fight of 18-19 of June 2011. Initially reported to be between the Mapogos and the Majingilanes, but later went into popular believe to be between Mapogos and Matimbas after rangers discussed it on Khimbini's FB post and an information of from a photographer who used to take many photos of Matimbas saying it was 3 "Sava/Matimba males".
Still, in the Matimba thread some very good arguments were presented by "Fredymrt" ( who unfortunately hasn't logged in since 2019 ) stating it couldn't have been Matimbas for several reasons. After reading a lot about this I wanted to give my take on who was involved in that fight... This will likely be a long post:
1. First I wanted to give the options for which lions it could have been and exclude some immediately, the most obvious at first were Majingilanes, but later Matimbas came into it and even the 2 Othawa boys that are confirmed to have fought their fathers that month. I think we can use common sense and exclude the 3yo Othawa boys from being the culprits because let's be honest 2 subs wouldn't be roaring as reported and then be able to serious injure all their 3 fathers to a point Khimbini would report the 3 Mapogos were "dripping blood" when he arrived. But still, after figuring everything out, in the next month, Khimbini/Inyati reported that Mapogos had at least 2 fights in June excluding the interaction with Othawas:
A similar option was also suggested by Fredymrt, the 2 young Nkuhuma males, but for the same reason we can easily disreagrd them, 2 subadults wouldn't be able to injure the 3 adult males to such degree Khimbini would say they all were injured and were literally dripping blood even by the time he arrived to the scene:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
EP also reports that they got news from the fight that they were all limping around after the conflict:
"Regarding the big boys, we got news from the west that the Majingi’s and the Mapogo’s had a brawl and after this they were all limping around"
Although they report it as being between Majingis and Mapogos.
But maybe the most important report about wounds, alongside Khimbini's who also saw them afterwards, is Singita's, since it happened there in Othawa. Mark Broodryk, Head Guide of Singita, reports in June 22 that Majingilanes killed a Selati male and weren't necessarily the ones to have fought the Mapogos, of which he describes their condition as:
"Forty-eight hours ago we located 3 adult male lions just north of the lodge (presumed to be the ones people refer to as “the Mapogos”). We found them by responding to vocalization; it sounded like a massive fight between adult male lions. On locating these three, we noticed that they had been badly beaten, were bloodied and received massive fresh scars from the ensuing morning battle."
2. With this said ( lots of territorial roaring and serious injuries inflicted to the 3 Mapogos ) I think it's clear it wasn't 2 Othawas or even the 2 Nkuhumas, but rather 3 adult males. But then, which males, 3 Majingis like initially reported?
Mele Andru says it couldn't have been them:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
They have been somehwere else and have no injuries. Arathusa also saw 2 Majingis after the fight and makes no mention of any injuries:
"Monday 20 June
This morning we came across a group of five rhinos just as they were waking up and starting to feed. It really is quite something to see these hulking beasts while they’re still sleepy. After watching them for a while we went looking for the lion cubs again, but unfortunately they were either well hidden or off somewhere with their Moms because we couldn’t find them anywhere. We did find one of the Styx lionesses however, and she’d been joined by two of the Majingilane males. Could there be love in the air?"
3. But if it wasn't them, then could it have been the Matimbas? I'll address Fredymrt's [very good] arguments saying it couldn't. Since we just mentioned Mele Andru, let's start with him, one of the points made by Fredymrt was that Mele Andru said Matimbas were never in Othawa:
*This image is copyright of its original author
And someone else Matimbas went just as far as Chitwa, Arathusa, Djuma and Nkorho, not west enough to have met Mapogos in Othawa:
*This image is copyright of its original author
However, I've to point out that they are unaware of Elephant Plains reports saying to have seen the Matimbas in their property in July ( fight was in 19 of June ):
"Manager’s Report July 2011
On another occasion they were treated to sightings of some new male lions in the area. These seem to be the Matimba pride from Manyeleti Game Reserve."
So yeah they did hang out west enough around that time even to have met the Mapogos in Othawa.
4. Now, addressing perhaps Fredymrt's strongest point at the time, that it couldn't have been Matimbas because there are photos of some Matimbas taken by Rudolf Kals on Cheetah Plains on 18-19 of June, like this one:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Shared on july and claimed to have been taken on 18-19 ( some in 18 and some in 19 ). Therefore, as per Fredymrt, they were too far from Othawa to have been involved, as the distance between Cheetah Plains and Othawa is around 18km:
*This image is copyright of its original author
However, to counter this is actually very simple: lions can and have crossed such distances in a single night.
Take for example this MalaMala report:
"January 11th. 6 lion sightings: the Matshapiri males covered a huge distance last night (15-20km) and were found near Hyena Waterhole this morning. The Eyrefield pride were a mere 200m from them but both were unaware of the others presence."
5. Now that I've addressed the points of why it couldn't be Matimbas, let's compile the evidence it could have been them.
As everybody knows, Kyaw got info from a photographer saying it was 3 Matimbas:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now, we know from the reports that the males who fought the Mapogos couldn't be sighted because they were hiding in thick bush, but something I've never seen brought up here is that in the Singita report that I've already shared here:
Karen Gilliam ( who works for WildEarth ), replies to Mark ( Singita Head Guide who made the post ) in June 22, talking about Khimbini's post and saying this:
"There was also a report of 5 males in Djuma/Western Gowrie and Torchwood area on Saturday, so it sure looks like quite a few different males are wandering about lately. Those Matimba in Manyeleti are getting a bit frisky nowdays too in crossing boundaries, as of last night 3 of them still not accounted for."
3 unaccounted Matimbas, coincidence?
Considering the Matimbas were the ones involved and the fact there were 6 of them, it's hard to tell their composition between 18-20 of June, they could have split in different groups and moved among themselves for all we know, but even among the ( I'm not sure how many ) Matimbas photographed in Cheetah Plains ( by Rudolf Kals ), at least one seemed to have injuries, maybe two but it's hard to identify them.
This one has similar scratches to Mr.T's after his second fight that month according to Khimbini, Matimba:
*This image is copyright of its original author
/\ June 19.
Mr.T June 2011:
*This image is copyright of its original author
So these are the types of scratches you can get in these territorial fights. Tbh this particular Matimba male already displayed these similar scratches in photos from June 18, but again, Rudolf was uploading them in July and just marking the many photos as being from 18 or 19 of June, so he could very well have been mistaken a photo from 19 as one from 18 ( though tbf we don't really know exact hour the fight took place between 18 and 19 since when rangers arrived the fight was already over and they only heard the roars, roars can happen before, after and during the actual fight ), still could any of these Matimbas' injuries have been from the said fight?
Here a Matimba male by Rudolf ( uploaded in July, claimed to be from June 18 ):
*This image is copyright of its original author
He looks pretty beaten and it seems very fresh. Could it have been from mating rights? It looks way to bad to be. And in the Sabi Sands where I think they had no prides by June 2011?
It looks similar to how Makhulu was:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Matimba male by Rudolf Kals, shared in July, said to be from June 19:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A bit similar to Makhulu's injury below the eye, from the same fight? Photo by Khimbini:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now a photo from PB who Khimbini said was also dripping blood but the injuries from the other 2 Mapogos were worse according to him:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now to finish it, Colleen Holland's statement that was shared here on WF already on who she thought fought Mapogos:
There's no real evidence that it couldn't have been the Matimbas, but we have plenty of evidence pointing out to them being the ones involved. When you add all the evidence and exclude the Majingilanes and any duo of subadults, honestly, unless some unknown coalition of 3 suddenly teleported to Sabi Sands around that time and area, I don't see how it can be anyone but the Matimbas.
(03-30-2023, 10:51 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato @"Timbavati" Wow I was certain it was Slitnose because his mane looked very well developed and SN seems to be the oldest after Ndhuna.
Is there any confirmation that the Mapogos defeated the Matimbas that day?
The story of the Mapogo pride for the first time related (by reading the viewers' reactions) in a french video. This famous gang of male lions becomes internationally notorious !
Any question ? Don't hesitate asking me it.
Of course the narrator isn't a scientific person, the account is a little bit anthropomorphic...
"Gang of killers - The Mapogo lions":
Was there Actually a fight between mr t and makhulu everytime I hear about a fight between them that led to the “split” it’s a video of mr t charging makhulu and pretty boy and mr t and pretty boy fighting, from what i know mr t and kinky tail tried to take the east but couldn’t them returned west to get dreadlocks Rasta and pretty boy so all 5 could take the east then the older 3 went back to the west so did mr t really challenge mak or no?
04-14-2023, 06:02 AM( This post was last modified: 04-14-2023, 06:04 AM by afortich )
(04-14-2023, 05:32 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Was there Actually a fight between mr t and makhulu everytime I hear about a fight between them that led to the “split” it’s a video of mr t charging makhulu and pretty boy and mr t and pretty boy fighting, from what i know mr t and kinky tail tried to take the east but couldn’t them returned west to get dreadlocks Rasta and pretty boy so all 5 could take the east then the older 3 went back to the west so did mr t really challenge mak or no?
As far as I remember, there was a fight for the right to mate between Mr. T and Mak, and I believe after or before Mr. T also fought Pretty Boy.
(04-14-2023, 05:32 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Was there Actually a fight between mr t and makhulu everytime I hear about a fight between them that led to the “split” it’s a video of mr t charging makhulu and pretty boy and mr t and pretty boy fighting, from what i know mr t and kinky tail tried to take the east but couldn’t them returned west to get dreadlocks Rasta and pretty boy so all 5 could take the east then the older 3 went back to the west so did mr t really challenge mak or no?
As far as I remember, there was a fight for the right to mate between Mr. T and Mak, and I believe after or before Mr. T also fought Pretty Boy.
Yes but they say that is the fight that broke the coalition up when at that point they where the last 3 mapogos no kinky tail no Rasta no dreadlocks
(04-14-2023, 05:32 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Was there Actually a fight between mr t and makhulu everytime I hear about a fight between them that led to the “split” it’s a video of mr t charging makhulu and pretty boy and mr t and pretty boy fighting, from what i know mr t and kinky tail tried to take the east but couldn’t them returned west to get dreadlocks Rasta and pretty boy so all 5 could take the east then the older 3 went back to the west so did mr t really challenge mak or no?
There're many accounts of all 6 Mapogos fighting a "battle royale" over scraps, as well as an account from 2010 by Khimbini of Makhulu and Mr.T fighting and chasing each other around over mating rights of the Ximhungwe females ( in heat again after Mr.T killed the 3 cubs ). I can also recall an all out fight that broke out over a buffalo in 2011. So they definitely fought each other, likely multiple times.
Now, did a huge fight over mating rights happened in 2008 between the two that may have contributed to the split? A Nkorho ranger claims in the documentary he saw it himself, saying it was the biggest fight he has ever seen and speculate it may have been one of the reasons for the split. There are some clear false information in the documentary, like a "Northern Coalition" of 4 males that the Mapogos fought, which is completely made up so go figure, maybe the the TV staff asked him to tell that made up tale, or maybe it did happen, difficult to say.
The North and East were conquered by them as a coalition of 6, before the split, they killed the dominant male of from Londolozi ( central territory ) in late 2006/early 2007 and killed Blondie, dominant male of Djuma/North in december 2007, ousting his partner Dozie at the same time. Mr.T and KT moved there permanently in mid 2008 expanding further east to Mala Mala and defended their territory mostly on their own, they lost Djuma/North to Gijimas in late 2009 and all the rest to Majingilane in mid 2010.
This thing about "caling for help" is a complex situation because the 4 older Mapogos saw the West as their core territory and Djuma and Londolozi as secondary land that they visited here and there, while Mlowathi after the split saw the east as their core territory and abandoned the west completely, very rarely visiting and not to any significant degree. In august 2008 the Western Eyrefield Mapogos were with the Mlowathi when they attacked the Rollercoaster male and the Styx pride ( it's even caught on video ), and later 3 Mapogos were seeing attacking the pride again, but after that it was only Mr.T and KT. January 30th 2009 saw 4 Mapogos together in Djuma ( North ), Makhulu, PB, Dreadlocks and Mr.T. Going by the rangers words the other 2 were around that area as well and were spending a good amount of time there fighting over mating rights. In march of that year the 3 Western Eyrefield Mapogos were filmed in Djuma too. In May 2010 one of the Mlowathi was seen with the 4 Western Mapogos in Leopard Hills.
With all that said I think it's quite possible that the other Mapogos could "summon" the others to fight in the east, problem is that if they couldn't find the enemy quickly, the Western Mapogos would lose interest and return to their core territory in the west, which was what happened when KT died and Mr.T returned, for the first time in many months the remaining Mapogos moved back to Londolozi roaring together, but they couldn't find what Mr.T was trying to lead them to and returned, then Mr.T killed the cubs and they were too busy fighting themselves to ever think about expanding again.
04-14-2023, 09:10 PM( This post was last modified: 04-15-2023, 03:27 AM by afortich )
Quote:problem is that if they couldn't find the enemy quickly,
I would also add my friend @Mapokser that I remember reading that the Majiginlanes avoided fighting the Mapogos when the Mapogos were all together and ready to fight.
(04-15-2023, 06:09 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @afortich Idk if Majingilanes were close enough to Londolozi to have heard the roars but there was no reply to the Mapogo's roars.
Regardless it wouldn't have make sense for the Majingilane to reply to 5 roars when less than a month prior they had so much trouble with only 2.
Good point, the first one.
Are you referring to the run in they had with the Matshapiri males?
@Horizon No, Matshipiris came on much later. I meant in June 2010 they had a lot of trouble with Mr.T and KT alone so it wouldn't make sense that just a month after that they'd reply to the roars of 5 Mapogos.
04-25-2023, 04:35 AM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2023, 07:03 AM by Lipstick2 )
Looking back: when they still were a 4 strong males' coalition. Dreadlocks, Makhulu and Pretty Boy feeding on a young hippo carcass which they got caught on the previous day.
05-19-2023, 03:32 AM( This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 03:35 AM by Mapokser )
One of the 2 remaining daughters of the Mapogos who recently turned 14 ( her sister sleeping at her side ):
*This image is copyright of its original author
She reminds me of her potential father Makhulu Mapogo:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
She got that Makhulu look/expression IMO:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Makhulu in his youth before growing a mane:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Old Mangheni:
*This image is copyright of its original author
According to recent reports 4 Mangheni females have suckle marks and one of the old ones mated with PCM again 2 months ago after losing her litter of 3.
The 2 last Mapogo offspring won't live for many more years but their legacy are still going strong as they gave their fathers many grandcubs, including 5 living adult Kambula granddaughters, 3 adult Mangheni granddaughters and now an unknown amount of cubs sired by PCM from 1/2 Mangheni, with more likely coming next month or so. Not to mention their great-grandcubs sired by Birminghams, PCM and Ndhzengas, more than I can count!
The Mapogos may not have left that many adult offspring considering how long they ruled and how many prides they controlled, and tragedy may have struck the Othawa pride, but their bloodline is spreading everywhere with their extremely successful 4 daughters from the Tsalala pride... And all of that despite many tragedies also happening to this pride.
Now we hope the tragedies have finally ended and they can build their numbers again under the PCM while their daughters become a mega pride under Ndhzengas.
(05-19-2023, 03:32 AM)Mapokser Wrote: One of the 2 remaining daughters of the Mapogos who recently turned 14 ( her sister sleeping at her side ):
*This image is copyright of its original author
She reminds me of her potential father Makhulu Mapogo:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
She got that Makhulu look/expression IMO:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Makhulu in his youth before growing a mane:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Old Mangheni:
*This image is copyright of its original author
According to recent reports 4 Mangheni females have suckle marks and one of the old ones mated with PCM again 2 months ago after losing her litter of 3.
The 2 last Mapogo offspring won't live for many more years but their legacy are still going strong as they gave their fathers many grandcubs, including 5 living adult Kambula granddaughters, 3 adult Mangheni granddaughters and now an unknown amount of cubs sired by PCM from 1/2 Mangheni, with more likely coming next month or so. Not to mention their great-grandcubs sired by Birminghams, PCM and Ndhzengas, more than I can count!
The Mapogos may not have left that many adult offspring considering how long they ruled and how many prides they controlled, and tragedy may have struck the Othawa pride, but their bloodline is spreading everywhere with their extremely successful 4 daughters from the Tsalala pride... And all of that despite many tragedies also happening to this pride.
Now we hope the tragedies have finally ended and they can build their numbers again under the PCM while their daughters become a mega pride under Ndhzengas.
They say mr t and kinky tail only mated with this pride but she does look just like him just like how I believe it’s big boy mhangeni a sister reminds me or mr t
