Size of Okavango Delta Lions and Lionesses

[Sully]

I've heard a bit of the exceptional size of Okavango Lions and lionesses and that they are some of the biggest cats in the world. This is due to big prey in buffalo and it being hard to move around in the marshes strengthening the animals when they do. Maybe as they're more aquatic this may strengthen them too. I've even heard the lionesses are nearly the same size as the mainland males! We all know about the Duba's as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...sland.html

If anyone has more info or data on these cats then please share, all data is welcome. Share pics and vids too please.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

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*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Dr Panthera]

There are not many actual readings but I believe the lions from the Tsaro pride in Duba plains in the Okavango to be among the largest cats in the world, Derek Joubert a renowned biologist and film maker has studied these lions since the 1980's and wrote three books and made four films about Botswana lions, he states that these lions are the largest he has ever seen, his guess-estimate for the seven lionesses to total 1200 kg ( average 171 kg each) the two fourteen year old males that rule that pride and are significantly larger that the females might be well over 250 kg.
Bear in mind that this is a very particular pride that eat nothing but cape buffalo and they swim through deep water hours and they are extremely muscular and quite larger than their neighbors the Skimmer pride and the Pantry pride.
Pieter Kat considers the Okavango lions a bit smaller than the Kalahari lions and skulls/trophies records from the Kalahari are a bit larger than Okavango Reply

[Pckts]

I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well. Reply

[LionKiss]

(11-04-2015, 04:47 AM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: I've heard a bit of the exceptional size of Okavango Lions and lionesses and that they are some of the biggest cats in the world. This is due to big prey in buffalo and it being hard to move around in the marshes strengthening the animals when they do. Maybe as they're more aquatic this may strengthen them too. I've even heard the lionesses are nearly the same size as the mainland males! We all know about the Duba's as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...sland.html

in this article you can read that there is a extremely high mortality of cubs, of course this is a very old article, but what is the current situation of the lions in this place? Reply

[Sully]

I am not aware of the current situation of the cubs there sorry, and when I searched there was not much on it. Reply

[Polar]

(01-06-2016, 03:05 AM)Pckts Wrote: I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well.

I concur. I don't really think there are any random group of big cats (whether lions or tigers, a pride or a strike) where each male member of the entire group weighs over 250kg. That's too unrealistic for even a single male from a male coalition, and many reports tell of lions weighing at 230, 250, 270+ kg but most of these reports are simply over-estimations based on the cat's size. A 400 pound lion or tiger is HUGE enough to make an average person easily mistake them for 500 or even 600 pounds. 

Across lion subspecies in Africa, I've noticed the Southwest (Okavango and Kalahari) lions tend to be somewhat longer like a tiger, yet less chest girth than an equally weighted Ngorngoro lion. Specifically, the skulls of Kalahari lions are bigger in proportion to head-body length than the Okavango lions (and I don't know about Kalahari vs Ngorngoro head-to-body proportionality, though), yet the Okavango lions are more muscled and heavier by at most 20kg on average. A Ngorngoro lion tends to be slimmer at the waist, and looks more like a robust tiger in terms of chest girth. About forequarters, Okavango lions seem to bear the largest, but not a difference too significant amongst them and the other two. It's not like the difference between a tiger's forequarters and those of a lions' while both cats are equally weighted, being that the tiger's is much more significantly larger under this condition. Just an observation.

Pckts is correct about marshy habitats contributing to a larger size within an animal population since marshy habitats also draw bigger prey (whom, in turn, need copious amounts of water), but I'm not so sure about a larger sexual dimorphism (SVTIGRIS suggested at the beginning of this thread that sexual dimorphism among Okavango lions is less pronounced than in other lion populations.) Reply

[Pckts]

Its a shame that we have no real weights or body measurements from any of the places mentioned, such speculation is fun, but serves no purpose in the scientific community. Reply

[LionKiss]

it is easy to find the weight of a Lion, just dart a big one and weight it, there are portable scales which can measure hundreds of kilos Reply

[Pckts]

Measuring a big cat is no easy task in the field. Also, getting permission to do so requires approval from numerous parties. 
Trying to weigh a 200kg+ cat requires planning, man power and resources. Reply

[LionKiss]

getting permission to dart a lion is probably the most serious problem
but it is not difficult as soon as it is anesthetized, there are portable scales 

it is not difficult for a team of 4-5 persons to use something like this, 
https://www.google.gr/search?q=portable+...3WV9SUY%3D Reply

[Pckts]

I know what a portable scale is.
And depending on the size of the cat, you need multiple people to lift the cat, put the tarp underneath it, raise it, all while taking measurements, checking health, looking out for other animals and in a limited time.

Not including the requirements needed to actually be allowed to do this.

You're not just hoping on a scale then hoping off. Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(01-06-2016, 03:05 AM)Pckts Wrote: I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well.

Dereck Joubert is in fact a biologist and a geologist , he obtained his degree in a university in Johansburgh and worked with lions in Mala Mala and Kruger before studying them in Botswana since 1981, he discovered he could earn much more money becoming a film maker than publishing studies so he did so with his photographer wife Beverley and they  won 13 Emmys .He provides much of the scientific content of their books.
The pride in question is the Tsaro pride seven huge lionesses and two colossal males , the two other prides in Duba have members that are of average size and the size difference is evident in  the film and book " Relentless Enemies" in confrontation between the members of the prides: The Tsaro lions are much larger than their neighbours , then again, these are only nine lions who eat a cape buffalo every other day and work for it by swimming in deep cold water , they are super athletic but have never been measured.
I was fortunate to see lions in Ngorongoro Crater and they are massive, but the trophy records are similar to southern Africa.
Genetics remain the deciding factor for example the Okavango lions ( Delta and flooded marsh habitat) are not larger than the Kalahari lions ( Desert with poor prey base ).
The largest free ranging lion was a 272 kg post prime old male that lived in a mountain area near mount Kenya and killed livestock, his skeleton is at the Osteology department of the national museum of Kenya in Nairobi....(old age, East Africa, Poor Prey base, no access to buffalo,giraffe, nor elephants...yet he was the biggest ( Gnoske and Peterhans) , individual exceptions are always there but if I compare all the records I have seen I would put Hwange,Etosha, and Ngorongoro lions at the top Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(01-07-2016, 04:17 AM)Polar Wrote:

(01-06-2016, 03:05 AM)Pckts Wrote: I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well.

I concur. I don't really think there are any random group of big cats (whether lions or tigers, a pride or a strike) where each male member of the entire group weighs over 250kg. That's too unrealistic for even a single male from a male coalition, and many reports tell of lions weighing at 230, 250, 270+ kg but most of these reports are simply over-estimations based on the cat's size. A 400 pound lion or tiger is HUGE enough to make an average person easily mistake them for 500 or even 600 pounds. 

Across lion subspecies in Africa, I've noticed the Southwest (Okavango and Kalahari) lions tend to be somewhat longer like a tiger, yet less chest girth than an equally weighted Ngorngoro lion. Specifically, the skulls of Kalahari lions are bigger in proportion to head-body length than the Okavango lions (and I don't know about Kalahari vs Ngorngoro head-to-body proportionality, though), yet the Okavango lions are more muscled and heavier by at most 20kg on average. A Ngorngoro lion tends to be slimmer at the waist, and looks more like a robust tiger in terms of chest girth. About forequarters, Okavango lions seem to bear the largest, but not a difference too significant amongst them and the other two. It's not like the difference between a tiger's forequarters and those of a lions' while both cats are equally weighted, being that the tiger's is much more significantly larger under this condition. Just an observation.

Pckts is correct about marshy habitats contributing to a larger size within an animal population since marshy habitats also draw bigger prey (whom, in turn, need copious amounts of water), but I'm not so sure about a larger sexual dimorphism (SVTIGRIS suggested at the beginning of this thread that sexual dimorphism among Okavango lions is less pronounced than in other lion populations.)

An average size lion or tiger of the larger eco-types is 180-200 kg , animals 200-230 kg are definitely large, and over that are huge and rare and do not have any importance .
I totally agree with you on how the average person overestimates the size...this why only scientifically measurements are to be considered....hunters, filmmakers, photographers, rangers, Safari operators, NGOs, and guides their readings have the same value if they were quoted by Lionel Messi or Lebron James.
I showed a picture of an Amur tiger measured at 206 kg to several lay people and got everything from 250 to 400 kg!!!
Again the habitat issue does not explain why Kalahari and Etosha lions are comparable in size to Okavango and Hwange lions, the desert habitat still has elephants, giraffes, zebra, wildebeest, gemsbok,eland and springbuck to provide for some of the largest lions, leopards, cheetahs, and hyenas!! Genetics continue to be the main factor.
And this fetish for larger animals is baffling, we still need to care the same way for a 200 lbs tiger and a 600 lbs one. Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(01-07-2016, 08:28 PM)LionKiss Wrote: getting permission to dart a lion is probably the most serious problem
but it is not difficult as soon as it is anesthetized, there are portable scales 

it is not difficult for a team of 4-5 persons to use something like this, 
https://www.google.gr/search?q=portable+...3WV9SUY%3D

Darting an animal can endanger it, the therapeutic index of Zoletil ( and several other sedatives) is narrow and could lead to accidental overdosage and death, this happened to three tigers that Dr Karanth was attempting to radio-collar and led to the government practically banning darting tigers for a while, a Russian tiger escaped the collaring team and fell in a frozen pond and drowned, Smuts darted a Kruger lioness and while she was under the influence of the drug a hyena bit her on the rear end requiring 26 stitches, another lioness he captured was violently attacked by her pride mates and died. And so on.
Measuring or estimating size is needed for biologist to determine the feeding requirements of the individuals in an area and therefore calculating home range and carrying capacity for a given habitat, and when this is done, the female weight is used, 120-135 kg for a lioness or a tigress, 65 kg for a female jaguar, and 40 kg for a leopardess. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-30-2016, 11:55 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:

(01-06-2016, 03:05 AM)Pckts Wrote: I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well.

Dereck Joubert is in fact a biologist and a geologist , he obtained his degree in a university in Johansburgh and worked with lions in Mala Mala and Kruger before studying them in Botswana since 1981, he discovered he could earn much more money becoming a film maker than publishing studies so he did so with his photographer wife Beverley and they  won 13 Emmys .He provides much of the scientific content of their books.
The pride in question is the Tsaro pride seven huge lionesses and two colossal males , the two other prides in Duba have members that are of average size and the size difference is evident in  the film and book " Relentless Enemies" in confrontation between the members of the prides: The Tsaro lions are much larger than their neighbours , then again, these are only nine lions who eat a cape buffalo every other day and work for it by swimming in deep cold water , they are super athletic but have never been measured.
I was fortunate to see lions in Ngorongoro Crater and they are massive, but the trophy records are similar to southern Africa.
Genetics remain the deciding factor for example the Okavango lions ( Delta and flooded marsh habitat) are not larger than the Kalahari lions ( Desert with poor prey base ).
The largest free ranging lion was a 272 kg post prime old male that lived in a mountain area near mount Kenya and killed livestock, his skeleton is at the Osteology department of the national museum of Kenya in Nairobi....(old age, East Africa, Poor Prey base, no access to buffalo,giraffe, nor elephants...yet he was the biggest ( Gnoske and Peterhans) , individual exceptions are always there but if I compare all the records I have seen I would put Hwange,Etosha, and Ngorongoro lions at the top

I am looking through images of relentless enemies but I'm unable to find the comparison image of the lions in question, if you have access to it could you show me? 

Also, do you have any access to the trophy records for the crater? I'd love to see those since they'd be the only measurements from the crater that I have seen.

In regards to the 272kg lion, I assume you're talking about kochs?
That lion has a bit of controversy since he has contradictory emails on whether the lion was adjusted or not as well as an email where he was unaware of the record it self. To my knowledge the largest lion according to the Kenya wildlife service was 230kg from Kenya.
But it's possible for a lion to reach that size I'm sure and I tend to believe the record but it also shows the range from lion to lion inside of a specific place since there are many Kenya lions who never reached close to that size. Which is what I'm saying about trying to say a single population having all Giants, like you said it's about genetics. Maybe a couple of individuals here and there will be "freak specimens" but an entire population being significantly larger than another is not something I have seen from weights verified thus far. And comparing one individual to another is also tough if we don't know what either cat weighs. Reply