Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage

[Potato]

(06-26-2022, 02:47 AM)sik94 Wrote: If the injured Monwana survived those months he was off the radar by himself

He wasn't totallly off the radar. He was popping up here and there and we know he wasn't yet linked up with Giraffe male back then yet. I do not know how exactly, dunno if he was accually hunting somehow but all in all he survived on his own through that peroid of time. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

My point is more. Lions do not do charity.
Peole are always way to quick in assuming that they just join forces as if its a done deal certain to happen. But its more the exception than the rule.

Aslong DM is territorial. His priority will be defending that position. Even if he has to attack his own sons.
And if he is ousted he needs to be able to hold his own. If he busts a leg in the process. No lion will go easy on him becouse he feels sorry. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(06-26-2022, 01:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: My point is more. Lions do not do charity.
Peole are always way to quick in assuming that they just join forces as if its a done deal certain to happen. But its more the exception than the rule.

Actually no,  if theres 2 nomads in the same area, theres way more chance that they will join forces rather then not, its definitely not exception, theres very few lone males in all of Kruger who never try to link with other males or coalitions, usually those are males who became dominant from the get go, like Othawa Male, who never had a need to get a coalition partner as he basically didn't even had proper nomadic life. 

But if there is a lone nomad, its prob 90% chance that he will get coalition partner (if theres any other nomads in the area), NK male for example, is lone male, he is only 6 yrs old, and already had 2 coalitions partners (3 if you count Big Boy Mhangeni), and its not that he chose partners or something, he basically linked with first nomad in the area. 

Just name any lone male, and he prob had coalition partner or linked with other male at some point of his life, so its definitely not exception. 

(06-26-2022, 01:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Aslong DM is territorial. His priority will be defending that position. Even if he has to attack his own sons.
And if he is ousted he needs to be able to hold his own. If he busts a leg in the process. No lion will go easy on him becouse he feels sorry.

DM is not territorial for ~ half a year now. Reply

[RookiePundit]

(06-26-2022, 01:07 AM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about.

As for him getting a partner while still being dominant that is highly unlikely, but things like that sometimes happen, more so as somethign extraodrinary rather than something we could expect to happen or count on. In Sabi Sands, Solo managed to join an aging male nad later run with his son(s). It would likely require younger, rather unexperienced male, more so that DM could possibly run from stronger threats. Even the Birmingham Young Male got seemingly accepted into Ross males colaition (before moving on and running uo into Torchwood), but hsitory of that individual is overall very atypical.

It is ofc more likely if there is nothing to compete for nothing to lose for one side, nomadic males without a pride don't have much of a reason to be hostile against each other, unless food is involved and if there is no kill, hostility is an unecessary risk and the individuals are much better of either getting along or going each their own way (numbers on each side would likely be a factor, as well as age and condition). If they keep  bumping into each other (or simply one side follows the other) they might get used to the other being around anyway. Whether it would mean a one time truce or staying together is never certain. I still believe lone males are receptive of joining another male(s) to have better shot, even if temporarily.

A few inaccuracies here, I would think. It wasn't DM with Corky on that clip but one of his brothers. Also, BYM was never accepted into the Ross male coalition, if anything he was beaten upon regularly and sustained some pretty severe knocks not least of which is the hip injury that looked like he would struggle to recover from. He survived, avoided the males in general and eventually dispersed.

That's not to say the gist of your post is incorrect and what you say is possible. One things for certain, DM is certainly a survivor. I remember seeing him on Wild Earth not long after the injury and I though there was no way he would come back, his ankle was broken that badly, but he did. Then he lost his territory and looked in pretty bad nick, but he survived and while we don't always appreciate it, has helped raise at least two powerful up and coming males and a core of young and powerful lionesses. If they all make it to adulthood he would rank right up there for leaving behind a lasting legacy and not many would have thought that in the wake of much more storied and admired coalitions and males lions.

There is for sure a video of Dark Mane and Corky flowing around... BYM after the injury shadow the pride and join them when Ross males were not present and then he was one day suddenly tolerated by them and here on Wild Fact was a discussion what that is about as for multiple weeks the three acted like they partners at least to some extent (BYM probably never patroled, which would be expected due to his injury). Reply

[RookiePundit]

(06-25-2022, 06:22 PM)Potato Wrote:

(06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about.

As for him getting a partner while still being dominant that is highly unlikely, but things like that sometimes happen, more so as somethign extraodrinary rather than something we could expect to happen or count on. In Sabi Sands, Solo managed to join an aging male nad later run with his son(s). It would likely require younger, rather unexperienced male, more so that DM could possibly run from stronger threats. Even the Birmingham Young Male got seemingly accepted into Ross males colaition (before moving on and running uo into Torchwood), but hsitory of that individual is overall very atypical.

It is ofc more likely if there is nothing to compete for nothing to lose for one side, nomadic males without a pride don't have much of a reason to be hostile against each other, unless food is involved and if there is no kill, hostility is an unecessary risk and the individuals are much better of either getting along or going each their own way (numbers on each side would likely be a factor, as well as age and condition). If they keep  bumping into each other (or simply one side follows the other) they might get used to the other being around anyway. Whether it would mean a one time truce or staying together is never certain. I still believe lone males are receptive of joining another male(s) to have better shot, even if temporarily.

On base of what are you claiming DM does not have confidance to fight? Just on base that he lose ground to Imbali male? It just as much could came to Imbali male simply being bigger, stronger, in better condition, not that he has some issue with fighting others. Personally I would not interpret DM as you did. Also DM is no longer dominant male and there is no any problem for him to make coalition with another adult male.

That seems like reading comprehension fail on your part. Reply

[RookiePundit]

(06-26-2022, 01:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: My point is more. Lions do not do charity.
Peole are always way to quick in assuming that they just join forces as if its a done deal certain to happen. But its more the exception than the rule.

Aslong DM is territorial. His priority will be defending that position. Even if he has to attack his own sons.
And if he is ousted he needs to be able to hold his own. If he busts a leg in the process. No lion will go easy on him becouse he feels sorry.

The only rule about lions is that every rule has its exceptions.

Sizanani helping his brother, literally feeding him, could be called charity, perhaps.

Nhenha and Nkuhuma went easy on Limper, not because they were sorry ofc, that would be anthropomorphism, but because he was in a condition that he did not present a threat and indeed died some weeks later.

Ofc lions usually join forces by being around each other, getting used to each other and bonding over time. It is not a magical switch, but a lot depends on the approach durign first contacts, that video of the male in Masai Mara deliberately approaches two males they were expected to kill him, in submissive way is certainly a different dynamic than two nomad feeding next to each other on big enough carcass they managed to find, the former is bit closer to one decisive moment back up by improved familiarity and bonding in next weeks than most situations. There is a lot infighting in some coalitions more than others to the extent that at times somebody not knowing the individuals culd hardly tell they are coalition partners. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

Yes. But I feel now people are starting to expect the exceptions a little too much. Reply

[Wyld@Heart]

(06-26-2022, 01:49 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: There is for sure a video of Dark Mane and Corky flowing around... BYM after the injury shadow the pride and join them when Ross males were not present and then he was one day suddenly tolerated by them and here on Wild Fact was a discussion what that is about as for multiple weeks the three acted like they partners at least to some extent (BYM probably never patroled, which would be expected due to his injury).

We're off on a tangent here but here is the video I know and it's not Dark Mane. I have never heard of any direct physical contact between Corky and DM and never seen any video of such however the interaction between Blondie and Corky is talked about to this day on WildEarth but nary a mention DM having anything to do with that hyena. Ill be happy to be proven wrong but... ja.

https://youtu.be/MOxfy85Tiw4

As for BYM, again, I watched him with the Birmingham pride extensively on Ngala via WE and the guides never once mentioned him interacting as member of the Ross coalition in all my time of viewing. He was always beaten up, chased away and he spent his time living on the fringes and coming into the pride main when opportunities presented itself. A few weeks taken out of the context of his entire history with the dominant coalition during his upbringing isn't changing the fact that he was dominated and on the verges of the pride during the tenure of the Ross Males before he dispersed. Reply

[criollo2mil]

Blondie

Reply

[WildLeonis]

(06-26-2022, 03:21 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 01:49 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: There is for sure a video of Dark Mane and Corky flowing around... BYM after the injury shadow the pride and join them when Ross males were not present and then he was one day suddenly tolerated by them and here on Wild Fact was a discussion what that is about as for multiple weeks the three acted like they partners at least to some extent (BYM probably never patroled, which would be expected due to his injury).

We're off on a tangent here but here is the video I know and it's not Dark Mane. I have never heard of any direct physical contact between Corky and DM and never seen any video of such however the interaction between Blondie and Corky is talked about to this day on WildEarth but nary a mention DM having anything to do with that hyena. Ill be happy to be proven wrong but... ja.

https://youtu.be/MOxfy85Tiw4

That video is mislabeled. This is clearly DM. The lions height. The face, specifically the nose and eye shape and the darkness of the mane gives it away. Blondie’s mane was not that dark in 2018 and neither was Mohawks. If you watch the live WE recording of this episode you’ll see in the live chat that he is identified as DM Avoca as well. In fact there is video from last year of DM chasing a leopard in the same way, injured foot and all, but thankfully the leopard was too quick and was not caught. PaintedDog sometimes mislabels his videos. He has the video of the Imbali male chasing off DM and the Talamatis labeled as DM chases Imbali. Anyone who didn’t know who was whom would think differently. Or didn’t watch the video as I believe the WE guide does identify who was whom correctly. Reply

[RookiePundit]

This is actually first time I see anyone claiming it is not Dark Mane on the video. The very same video is otherwise on youtube always having the two identified as Dark Mane and Corky. Reply

[BA0701]

(06-26-2022, 02:10 PM)RookiePundit Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 01:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: My point is more. Lions do not do charity.
Peole are always way to quick in assuming that they just join forces as if its a done deal certain to happen. But its more the exception than the rule.

Aslong DM is territorial. His priority will be defending that position. Even if he has to attack his own sons.
And if he is ousted he needs to be able to hold his own. If he busts a leg in the process. No lion will go easy on him becouse he feels sorry.

The only rule about lions is that every rule has its exceptions.

Sizanani helping his brother, literally feeding him, could be called charity, perhaps.

Nhenha and Nkuhuma went easy on Limper, not because they were sorry ofc, that would be anthropomorphism, but because he was in a condition that he did not present a threat and indeed died some weeks later.

Ofc lions usually join forces by being around each other, getting used to each other and bonding over time. It is not a magical switch, but a lot depends on the approach durign first contacts, that video of the male in Masai Mara deliberately approaches two males they were expected to kill him, in submissive way is certainly a different dynamic than two nomad feeding next to each other on big enough carcass they managed to find, the former is bit closer to one decisive moment back up by improved familiarity and bonding in next weeks than most situations. There is a lot infighting in some coalitions more than others to the extent that at times somebody not knowing the individuals culd hardly tell they are coalition partners.

Just a note regarding that video of Fang and Ololashe in the Mara. That video still stands, imo, as the most incredible evidence of a lion's ability of forethought I have ever seen. Not only did Fang approach the other two in a very submissive way as you mentioned, he intentionally antagonized the much larger of the two in order to elicit a swat and did so while trying not to hurt or injure the Ololashe, you can even see the confusion on Ololashe's face when it happens. It was stunning to see that. I have not heard of the fates of any of the lions involved since, but according to that same guide a few days later, Fang was actually allowed to escape and did so with the female that was the original cause of the ruckus. Shades of Jesse abound. That video, for me, represents proof positive that lions are much more than machines acting on instinct, capable of so much more than we currently understand. The closest I have seen to this behavior was the young male who was attempting to join an existing coalition of other young males and taking quite the beating in doing so. Reply

[afortich]

(06-26-2022, 07:09 PM)WildLeonis Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 03:21 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 01:49 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: There is for sure a video of Dark Mane and Corky flowing around... BYM after the injury shadow the pride and join them when Ross males were not present and then he was one day suddenly tolerated by them and here on Wild Fact was a discussion what that is about as for multiple weeks the three acted like they partners at least to some extent (BYM probably never patroled, which would be expected due to his injury).

We're off on a tangent here but here is the video I know and it's not Dark Mane. I have never heard of any direct physical contact between Corky and DM and never seen any video of such however the interaction between Blondie and Corky is talked about to this day on WildEarth but nary a mention DM having anything to do with that hyena. Ill be happy to be proven wrong but... ja.

https://youtu.be/MOxfy85Tiw4

That video is mislabeled. This is clearly DM. The lions height. The face, specifically the nose and eye shape and the darkness of the mane gives it away. Blondie’s mane was not that dark in 2018 and neither was Mohawks. If you watch the live WE recording of this episode you’ll see in the live chat that he is identified as DM Avoca as well. In fact there is video from last year of DM chasing a leopard in the same way, injured foot and all, but thankfully the leopard was too quick and was not caught.  PaintedDog sometimes mislabels his videos. He has the video of the Imbali male chasing off DM and the Talamatis labeled as DM chases Imbali. Anyone who didn’t know who was whom would think differently. Or didn’t watch the video as I believe the WE guide does identify who was whom correctly.

I'm not good at recognizing lions' faces but the lion in the video (blondie) appears not to be DM because the lion in the video does not have the injury/fracture suffered by DM on his front right paw/leg. Reply

[afortich]

(06-26-2022, 11:09 PM)BA0701 Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 02:10 PM)RookiePundit Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 01:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: My point is more. Lions do not do charity.
Peole are always way to quick in assuming that they just join forces as if its a done deal certain to happen. But its more the exception than the rule.

Aslong DM is territorial. His priority will be defending that position. Even if he has to attack his own sons.
And if he is ousted he needs to be able to hold his own. If he busts a leg in the process. No lion will go easy on him becouse he feels sorry.

The only rule about lions is that every rule has its exceptions.

Sizanani helping his brother, literally feeding him, could be called charity, perhaps.

Nhenha and Nkuhuma went easy on Limper, not because they were sorry ofc, that would be anthropomorphism, but because he was in a condition that he did not present a threat and indeed died some weeks later.

Ofc lions usually join forces by being around each other, getting used to each other and bonding over time. It is not a magical switch, but a lot depends on the approach durign first contacts, that video of the male in Masai Mara deliberately approaches two males they were expected to kill him, in submissive way is certainly a different dynamic than two nomad feeding next to each other on big enough carcass they managed to find, the former is bit closer to one decisive moment back up by improved familiarity and bonding in next weeks than most situations. There is a lot infighting in some coalitions more than others to the extent that at times somebody not knowing the individuals culd hardly tell they are coalition partners.

Just a note regarding that video of Fang and Ololashe in the Mara. That video still stands, imo, as the most incredible evidence of a lion's ability of forethought I have ever seen. Not only did Fang approach the other two in a very submissive way as you mentioned, he intentionally antagonized the much larger of the two in order to elicit a swat and did so while trying not to hurt or injure the Ololashe, you can even see the confusion on Ololashe's face when it happens. It was stunning to see that. I have not heard of the fates of any of the lions involved since, but according to that same guide a few days later, Fang was actually allowed to escape and did so with the female that was the original cause of the ruckus. Shades of Jesse abound. That video, for me, represents proof positive that lions are much more than machines acting on instinct, capable of so much more than we currently understand. The closest I have seen to this behavior was the young male who was attempting to join an existing coalition of other young males and taking quite the beating in doing so.

You're right, I also believe that lions are not only machine move by instinct and like you said the video of Fang and Ololashe is another piece of evidence to support it.
Thank you for clarifying the final outcome of the interaction of Fang and Ololashe because I didn't hear/read the guide that Fang was allowed to live after searching for long hours trying to find what you just clarified.
A question, Fang was the lion that rejected Jesse's intent to form a coalition with him?? Reply

[WildLeonis]

(06-26-2022, 11:52 PM)afortich Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 07:09 PM)WildLeonis Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 03:21 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(06-26-2022, 01:49 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: There is for sure a video of Dark Mane and Corky flowing around... BYM after the injury shadow the pride and join them when Ross males were not present and then he was one day suddenly tolerated by them and here on Wild Fact was a discussion what that is about as for multiple weeks the three acted like they partners at least to some extent (BYM probably never patroled, which would be expected due to his injury).

We're off on a tangent here but here is the video I know and it's not Dark Mane. I have never heard of any direct physical contact between Corky and DM and never seen any video of such however the interaction between Blondie and Corky is talked about to this day on WildEarth but nary a mention DM having anything to do with that hyena. Ill be happy to be proven wrong but... ja.

https://youtu.be/MOxfy85Tiw4

That video is mislabeled. This is clearly DM. The lions height. The face, specifically the nose and eye shape and the darkness of the mane gives it away. Blondie’s mane was not that dark in 2018 and neither was Mohawks. If you watch the live WE recording of this episode you’ll see in the live chat that he is identified as DM Avoca as well. In fact there is video from last year of DM chasing a leopard in the same way, injured foot and all, but thankfully the leopard was too quick and was not caught.  PaintedDog sometimes mislabels his videos. He has the video of the Imbali male chasing off DM and the Talamatis labeled as DM chases Imbali. Anyone who didn’t know who was whom would think differently. Or didn’t watch the video as I believe the WE guide does identify who was whom correctly.

I'm not good at recognizing lions' faces but the lion in the video (blondie) appears not to be DM because the lion in the video does not have the injury/fracture suffered by DM on his front right paw/leg.

DM broke his foot in August 2019. This video is from November 2018. Reply