There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Completelly dissagree. Water sources has noting to do with the size, is the prey base available what influence the size of these cats. Other thing, paw prints are not a good predictor as we don't know which specific variations may be between the species, after all they are not just "cats" but completelly different species, so the paw size may have another explanation.
About the weights of 107 and 110 kg for pumas, I doubt them for the moment and I will like to see the sources of those figures. The heaviest puma reliably recorded was of 105 kg (Hornocker & Negri, 2010), so those figures should be exceptional, but I will like to check its reliability first.
Definitelly, in every study jaguars are significavely heavier than pumas, the bodies are more massive and the skulls are bigger, there is no comparison.
And I support Pckts on this, jaguar dominate over pumas, no such thing as avoidance and also here in Guatemala pumas are smaller than jaguars and there is a case of a jaguar killing a puma in Belice.
Finally, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This studies clearly shows that pumas are smaller than jaguars.
(04-15-2022, 07:29 PM)LonePredator Wrote: Is this from the wild? If so, I did not know these two species coexisted. Is there any recorded instances of Cougars and Jaguars interacting?
Yes, jaguar and cougars coexist in most of America, from southern Mexico to northern Argentina. In the areas where they coexist, jaguars are always bigger. When they interact, jaguars dominate thanks to its largest size.
Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Jaguars are hunted to hear extinction in Mexico/N. America.
And the Pantanal has 1000s of Capybara, they are absolutely everywhere. And while there is a ton of cattle in Brazil, not all jaguars or puma are cattle killer. On top of that, it's not just S. America where Jaguar are larger than Puma, C. America as well. Costa Rica which doesn't have the caiman still produce much larger Jaguar than the Pumas you find there.
Lastly, there is no mutual avoidance. Jaguar dominate and puma avoid, this goes for anywhere they are found together in any numbers.
The best place to spot a jaguar on earth rn is caiman ecological refuge in the pantanal. There are way more caiman and fish (which are also a huge part of a pantanal jag’s diet) here than capybara. Also, i only mentioned nw mexico, NOT costa rica, belize, honduras, guatemala or southern mexico. Costa Rica does have crocodillians. Along the costa rican coast jaguars kill and eat leatherback turtles. This isnt something pumas typically do.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals.
This study here from mexico shows very little or no avoidance done by either cats. Except it says how jaguar activity decreases once puma activity is at a high because “encounters between two species of large carnivores usually end with interspecific aggresion and the maiming or killing of one of the aggresors.”
While the reconstruction of Smilodon populator seems accurate, the comparison with the lion is totally incorrect. No lion in history reached the same shoulder height of the S. populator, the tallest male was of 114 cm "between pegs" while the tallest S. populator was about 130 cm. Also, the head of the lion is reconstructed to large in comparison with S. populator, which had a bigger skull overall. Head-body length of the largest lion is of 218 cm "between pegs" while that of S. populator is reconstructed at 220 cm, so that point the image is accurate.
the comparison with the lion is perfectly correct based on this complete skeleton of smilodon populator. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-smilodo...-a-species 100 cm at the shoulder and 80 cm at the hip, with a skull size of 345.7 mm long and 221.5 mm wide (which corresponds to the average skull size of the smilodon populator)
And the 130 cm at the shoulder is only an estimate and estimates are not facts
04-16-2022, 01:27 AM( This post was last modified: 04-16-2022, 01:28 AM by Mwarcaar )
(04-15-2022, 03:07 PM)Hello Wrote:
(04-15-2022, 01:13 AM)Mwarcaar Wrote:
(04-14-2022, 01:39 PM)Hello Wrote:
(04-13-2022, 08:29 PM)Hello Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes, unrealistic, only to show how impressive is the artwork and a scale for amazement. Almost 900 lbs and 4 ft is realistic ,if not the largest. No idea about the largest skull? I believe they in general had smaller skulls than lions.
for your information the largest skull of smilodon populator measures 392 mm, which is smaller than the largest skulls of modern lions and no the proportions are not at all realistic, the head is too large, the neck and the body are too short and above all he has an excessive size, even Kodiak bears are not that size.
(04-16-2022, 01:20 AM)Mwarcaar Wrote: the comparison with the lion is perfectly correct based on this complete skeleton of smilodon populator. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-smilodo...-a-species 100 cm at the shoulder and 80 cm at the hip, with a skull size of 345.7 mm long and 221.5 mm wide (which corresponds to the average skull size of the smilodon populator)
And the 130 cm at the shoulder is only an estimate and estimates are not facts
Sorry, but the image that you post do not provide any of that information. So the image was scaled with the measurements of that particular speciment, in that case the comparison with the lion is correct as both measure 100 cm in shoulder height.
130 cm is not unreliable, check that the estimations between 120 - 130 cm came from real experts and has been reconstructed based in real bones, so they are realiable and if you ask to any scientist that work with them they are going to tell you that thise sizes are facts.
Besides, you should know that animals can be escalated based in known measurements via extrapolation, don't you? So, if a specimen with a skull length of 345.7 mm had a shoulder height of 100 cm, certainly specimens with skulls over 390 mm will be much higher, that is a fact too.
Also, there is no form to know if that specimen is an average sized Smilodon populator, do you have a sample of animals of the same sex and in a range of age to confirm that? If not, that is your personal speculation.
04-16-2022, 01:32 AM( This post was last modified: 04-16-2022, 01:37 AM by LonePredator )
(04-16-2022, 01:20 AM)Mwarcaar Wrote:
(04-15-2022, 04:07 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-15-2022, 01:13 AM)Mwarcaar Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
While the reconstruction of Smilodon populator seems accurate, the comparison with the lion is totally incorrect. No lion in history reached the same shoulder height of the S. populator, the tallest male was of 114 cm "between pegs" while the tallest S. populator was about 130 cm. Also, the head of the lion is reconstructed to large in comparison with S. populator, which had a bigger skull overall. Head-body length of the largest lion is of 218 cm "between pegs" while that of S. populator is reconstructed at 220 cm, so that point the image is accurate.
the comparison with the lion is perfectly correct based on this complete skeleton of smilodon populator. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-smilodo...-a-species 100 cm at the shoulder and 80 cm at the hip, with a skull size of 345.7 mm long and 221.5 mm wide (which corresponds to the average skull size of the smilodon populator)
And the 130 cm at the shoulder is only an estimate and estimates are not facts
A ‘large’ Smilodon Populator with a shoulder height of 100cm seems impossible. If it really was 100cm then it is probably a Smilodon Fatalis or a mediocre Populator at best.
Populators were close to the body length of modern day Tigers but they were taller. 100cm is the shoulder height of average Bengal Tiger specimens.
How is it even possible that this ‘large’ Smilodon Populator was 100cm tall (just as tall as an average Bengal Tiger) and probably even shorter in length than an average Bengal Tiger and yet it is called a large specimen? That seems impossible.
The shoulder height of a large 350-400kg Smilodon Populator specimen should be at least 120cm at the shoulder.
04-16-2022, 01:39 AM( This post was last modified: 04-16-2022, 01:40 AM by GuateGojira )
(04-16-2022, 01:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals.
@Pckts and @Balam, you know more populations of jaguars than I, what do you think about this statement?
(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Completelly dissagree. Water sources has noting to do with the size, is the prey base available what influence the size of these cats. Other thing, paw prints are not a good predictor as we don't know which specific variations may be between the species, after all they are not just "cats" but completelly different species, so the paw size may have another explanation.
About the weights of 107 and 110 kg for pumas, I doubt them for the moment and I will like to see the sources of those figures. The heaviest puma reliably recorded was of 105 kg (Hornocker & Negri, 2010), so those figures should be exceptional, but I will like to check its reliability first.
Definitelly, in every study jaguars are significavely heavier than pumas, the bodies are more massive and the skulls are bigger, there is no comparison.
And I support Pckts on this, jaguar dominate over pumas, no such thing as avoidance and also here in Guatemala pumas are smaller than jaguars and there is a case of a jaguar killing a puma in Belice.
Finally, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This studies clearly shows that pumas are smaller than jaguars.
Ofc its due to prey base. My point was that freshwater environments in south and central america have plenty of semi aquatic and reptillian prey.
If you were to remove venezuela and pantanal from those samples the weight for male jags and male pumas would be the same (both around ~65kg). The Venezuelan and pantanal samples are both from floodplain areas. Cattle ranch distribution map:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Notice how the Llanos and pantanal regions especially have the highest densities. Again these are also jaguar-filled floodplain regions with tons of reptillian and semi-aquatic prey.
Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max.
Puma weights from proceedings of the Washington academy of sciences volume 3:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the same as the amazon average for male jags which btw is a really high average weight for amazonian jaguars. Also, in the screenshots you posted the lowest weight for male pumas and male jags was the same. So now tell me, is there really that much of a size difference? Under the same conditions would a jaguar be larger than a puma?
I dont have the pampas sample on me but i will try to find it now
This had been posted in another thread by @Rage2277 and keep in mind this is an edited video, the cougar and the jaguar are not actually walking together.
This had been posted in another thread by @Rage2277
The fact that a female puma is taller than a healthy prime male jaguar is proof enough that even if these costa rican jags are heavier than the pumas here they are still the smaller animal (at least in this particular area).
This had been posted in another thread by @Rage2277
Massive difference, this is what we wait in a comparison between a Panthera and a Puma. Check that pumas can be as long and tall as jaguars, but never as heavy and massive, with such a large skulls.
Pumas and leopards are a better comparison, from my point of view.
@GuateGojira Do you have any data about the size of Snow Leopards and some populations of Leopards? Especially Indian and African Leopards.
There seems to be abundant data for Cougars and Jaguars and I was under the impression that the data for the weight and size of these two species is lacking.
This had been posted in another thread by @Rage2277
Massive difference, this is what we wait in a comparison between a Panthera and a Puma. Check that pumas can be as long and tall as jaguars, but never as heavy and massive, with such a large skulls.
Pumas and leopards are a better comparison, from my point of view.
Pumas and leopards are definitely a lot more similar yes. Though when it comes to the arm department pumas dont ever seem to be less robust or muscular than jaguars. Leopards, yes, for sure lol. But never cougars.
04-16-2022, 02:23 AM( This post was last modified: 04-16-2022, 02:56 AM by Pckts )
(04-16-2022, 01:50 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(04-16-2022, 01:07 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Completelly dissagree. Water sources has noting to do with the size, is the prey base available what influence the size of these cats. Other thing, paw prints are not a good predictor as we don't know which specific variations may be between the species, after all they are not just "cats" but completelly different species, so the paw size may have another explanation.
About the weights of 107 and 110 kg for pumas, I doubt them for the moment and I will like to see the sources of those figures. The heaviest puma reliably recorded was of 105 kg (Hornocker & Negri, 2010), so those figures should be exceptional, but I will like to check its reliability first.
Definitelly, in every study jaguars are significavely heavier than pumas, the bodies are more massive and the skulls are bigger, there is no comparison.
And I support Pckts on this, jaguar dominate over pumas, no such thing as avoidance and also here in Guatemala pumas are smaller than jaguars and there is a case of a jaguar killing a puma in Belice.
Finally, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This studies clearly shows that pumas are smaller than jaguars.
Ofc its due to prey base. My point was that freshwater environments in south and central america have plenty of semi aquatic and reptillian prey.
If you were to remove venezuela and pantanal from those samples the weight for male jags and male pumas would be the same (both around ~65kg). The Venezuelan and pantanal samples are both from floodplain areas. Cattle ranch distribution map:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Notice how the Llanos and pantanal regions especially have the highest densities. Again these are also jaguar-filled floodplain regions with tons of reptillian and semi-aquatic prey.
Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max.
Puma weights from proceedings of the Washington academy of sciences volume 3:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the same as the amazon average for male jags which btw is a really high average weight for amazonian jaguars. Also, in the screenshots you posted the lowest weight for male pumas and male jags was the same. So now tell me, is there really that much of a size difference? Under the same conditions would a jaguar be larger than a puma?
I dont have the pampas sample on me but i will try to find it now
Quote:Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max.
Chaco, Cerrado and Atlantic Forest Jaguars will all significantly outsize Pumas as well.
Amazon Jaguars are sloth eaters, they are a much smaller variety. They suffer much more from floods and spend much of their lives in trees, it's just about the prey and habitat they live in. The only Jaguars smaller than them are the Caatinga ones.
It's pretty simple, when both animals are at their apex, the Jaguar is the much larger cat. If a habitat is geared towards one more than the other than that one should do better but in places where they both live, the Jaguar is going to be the superior cat.
04-16-2022, 02:33 AM( This post was last modified: 04-16-2022, 02:55 AM by Pckts )
(04-16-2022, 01:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(04-16-2022, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(04-15-2022, 08:48 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-15-2022, 07:29 PM)LonePredator Wrote: Is this from the wild? If so, I did not know these two species coexisted. Is there any recorded instances of Cougars and Jaguars interacting?
Yes, jaguar and cougars coexist in most of America, from southern Mexico to northern Argentina. In the areas where they coexist, jaguars are always bigger. When they interact, jaguars dominate thanks to its largest size.
Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Jaguars are hunted to hear extinction in Mexico/N. America.
And the Pantanal has 1000s of Capybara, they are absolutely everywhere. And while there is a ton of cattle in Brazil, not all jaguars or puma are cattle killer. On top of that, it's not just S. America where Jaguar are larger than Puma, C. America as well. Costa Rica which doesn't have the caiman still produce much larger Jaguar than the Pumas you find there.
Lastly, there is no mutual avoidance. Jaguar dominate and puma avoid, this goes for anywhere they are found together in any numbers.
The best place to spot a jaguar on earth rn is caiman ecological refuge in the pantanal. There are way more caiman and fish (which are also a huge part of a pantanal jag’s diet) here than capybara. Also, i only mentioned nw mexico, NOT costa rica, belize, honduras, guatemala or southern mexico. Costa Rica does have crocodillians. Along the costa rican coast jaguars kill and eat leatherback turtles. This isnt something pumas typically do.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals.
This study here from mexico shows very little or no avoidance done by either cats. Except it says how jaguar activity decreases once puma activity is at a high because “encounters between two species of large carnivores usually end with interspecific aggresion and the maiming or killing of one of the aggresors.”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Pumas dont avoid jaguars
Quote:Pumas dont avoid jaguars
Of course they do:
About the Puma and Jaguar in the same areas, sizes and interactions.
In Brazil the smallest difference in size for both species happens in Caatinga where jaguars are the smallest in size.
The Amazonic jaguars from Mamirauá reserve are small too but they're larger than the Caatinga jaguars.
There are a few infos of Jaguars and Pumas coexistence in the Jaguars of Brazil thread, in Atlantic Forest area of Iguaçú - South Brazil Pumas and Jaguars can be seen in the same territories but on different times of the day and night within that specific area.
IN THE BRAZILIAN ATLANTIC FOREST.
from the Bafo de Onça live.
Vânia from the Onças do Iguaçú project: ''both species use the same area but with Atlantic forest Jaguars and Ocelots being more nocturnal active cats in Iguaçú whereas Pumas are also nocturnal but they were active much more on daytime than jaguars so maybe the utilization of the area at different times help the existence of both species.''
IN PANTANAL.
In the Pantanal basin wise there's a post I dropped some months ago in the Jaguars of Brazil thread of Onçafari live ''Onçatalks''and according to their monitoring and to what Joares May said in Pantanal Pumas will also avoid direct encounters with jaguars and will seek smaller preys.
Joares May: ''The Onçafari team are on the field monitoring the area to figure out the places where it spots more Pumas and the ones that spots more jaguars, and from what we've seen in the areas where jaguars are seen the most the Pumas will either not show up around there or they will show up there only every once in a while during the day so both species are in the same region but in different times and its very clear in those places where in the range area of the jaguar you won't see Pumas around because the Puma won't be able to compete with this big predator.''
In the same onçafari live they were asked about jaguar predation on pumas and Joares May who travelled all over Brazil and the world he captured jaguars, maned wolves, pumas... he mentioned about a Puma carcass in Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas ( Cerrado ) that was found and supposedly killed by a jaguar they checked the fighting place and the carcass had bite marks on the shoulders and paws so he imagined the Puma carcass was killed by jaguar, he also mentions he saw the result of a Puma and Jaguar fight and he says the result was Ugly.
also Pumas won't be seen very often in neither Porto Jofre (North section of Pantanal) nor in Mamirauá reserve (Central Amazon) because these two regions got high densities of jaguars with very high intraspecific competitions amongst jags. But just like in Iguaçú Pumas may very well ''show up'' during the times of the day/night when jaguars are less active in one specific place of those areas.
The area where wild Pumas and Jaguars are most equally sized is in Caatinga where both cats are found in serious critical endangered situations and where some Pumas could be the same size as jaguars or even slightly larger as Ronaldo Morato have stated in the live. In Caatinga is where you'll see the smallest wild jaguars than in any other biome but despite their small size they're yet proportionately very stocky cats which is expected from the most robust cat pound for pound.
Quote:The best place to spot a jaguar on earth rn is caiman ecological refuge in the pantanal. There are way more caiman and fish (which are also a huge part of a pantanal jag’s diet) here than capybara. Also, i only mentioned nw mexico, NOT costa rica, belize, honduras, guatemala or southern mexico. Costa Rica does have crocodillians. Along the costa rican coast jaguars kill and eat leatherback turtles. This isnt something pumas typically do.
And the best place to spot jaguars on earth is in the Northern Pantanal, Caiman Ecological Refuge is the southern Pantanal. And fish play a very little role in the N. Pantanal Jags diet. Caiman and Capybara are by far the most preyed upon animal and it's not close other than cattle.
