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Amur Tigers
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 (05-13-2021, 07:09 AM)ganidat Wrote:I am not sure, same level i think(05-06-2021, 06:01 PM)Hello Wrote:(05-06-2021, 04:13 PM)johnny rex Wrote:I was not sure, but 125 cm seems bit of a stretch.i'd say it is not impossible but such heights are extremely rare, abnormal and are giants. Amnon said amurs from this facility are extremely large.(05-02-2021, 02:47 PM)Hello Wrote: Bimbo,120 cm and claimed to be 400 kg  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (05-02-2021, 02:31 PM)Panthera Wrote: Rare record, Wild Amur tiger go into Chinese village and shattered car windows on 23th of last month(10 days ago) The male wild Amur tiger was captured last month(23th of April) because into village. He was released into the wild yesterday(18th of May)  *This image is copyright of its original author Sanda has returned to the taiga after year-long rehab The tigress was found in May 2020 in village Gornovodnoye in Primorsky Krai - tiger cub had lost her mother. In the rehab she was learning the skills of independent life for a year. Tumbled kitten has become the majestic tigress and will now explore the forests of Amur Oblast. There are several adult males in the region now so we hope they’ll meet soon. http://amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1590/ according to tg of Amur tiger center the tigress about 1,8-1,9 yo weighting 90 kg and 98 sm at shoulders
Interesting debate going on about OCHKARIK and CHLAMID. I recently contacted Ivan Seryodkin and asked him about this incident. Here's his answer:
[b]Hello Pablo. I don't know this story. This is not a scientific article and I would not refer to it became. Good luck, Ivan[/b] So as you guys can see, Seryodkin never heard of this story. Now you guys might say that TSTP was from 1992-2013, but Seryodkin is not retired and still has plenty of contacts in the Russian far east, so most likely, if an adult male brown bear was killed by a tiger, you can bet your bottom dollar that Seryodkin would know about it. Do i have a good point? Add that to the fact that as you saw in the email, he said that Batalov's account is not a scientific article and should not be refered to. So as reliable and good as Batalov might be, his account is not "peer reviewed" as other biologists or authorities never heard of it. Do i have a point? Bottom line is guys, the account is unconfirmed. (05-22-2021, 08:11 AM)Ursus Wrote: So as you guys can see, Seryodkin never heard of this story. Now you guys might say that TSTP was from 1992-2013, but Seryodkin is not retired and still has plenty of contacts in the Russian far east, so most likely, if an adult male brown bear was killed by a tiger, you can bet your bottom dollar that Seryodkin would know about it. Do i have a good point? Add that to the fact that as you saw in the email, he said that Batalov's account is not a scientific article and should not be refered to. So as reliable and good as Batalov might be, his account is not "peer reviewed" as other biologists or authorities never heard of it. Do i have a point? Ussurisky Nature Reserve, Anyuysky National Park, Bolshekhekhtsirsky Nature Reserve, Botcha Nature Reserve, Land of the Leopard National Park, Khekhtsir State Nature Reserve, Sikhote-Alin Nature Reserve, Lazovsky Nature Reserve, Kedrovaya Pad Nature Reserve, Komsomolsk Nature Reserve, Udegeyskaya Legenda National Park, Khingan Nature Reserve and etc. these are places where you can meet both tigers and bears. And this is without taking into account such places as Durmin, whose territory is not part of any of these reserves. And now the question: in how many reserves did Seryodkin do his researches? I may be wrong, but as far as I know, it is only in Sikhote Alin Nature Reserve. Your assumption that Seryodkin is the main expert on large predators in the entire Russian Far East, and his opinion is primacy over the opinion of any other specialist, is erroneous. Because the area of his research covers only a small part of the habitat of the brown bear, amur tiger, ussuri black bear in this part of Russia. It seems that you have a very simplified idea of how scientific and environmental activities are organized in the Russian Far East. A huge number of organizations, institutions, scientists, rangers, volunteers are involved in the process of studying, protecting, preserving, rescuing, creating conditions for introduction, reintroduction, etc.: Wildlife Conservation Society, International Fund for Animal Welfare, Russian Geographical Society, Institute of Ecology and Evolution A.N. Severtsov, Pacific Institute of Geography, All-Russian Research Institute of Hunting Economy and Animal Breeding named after V.I. B.M. Zhitkova, The Center for Rehabilitation and Reintroduction of Tigers and Other Rare Animals, Research center for rare and endangered species of animals and plants "Krasnaya kniga", "Phoenix" Foundation, The Amur tiger center, scientists and researchers like Rozhnov, Aramilev, Gaponov, Darman, Dunishenko, Zhuravlev, Kostyrya, Krever, Lukarevskiy, Naydenko, Pikunov, Seryodkin and etc. If you delve into this topic, then this list can be very long. I want to say that in different habitats of large predators living in the Far East of Russia, different organizations and people are responsible. And the opinion that one person can own all the information about the cases taking place in such a vast territory is ridiculous. The incident with this tiger occurred at the northern border of the amur tigers habitat, and Sikhote Alin is located in the southern part. If you are really interested in finding out the truth, then you should have asked your questions to Aramilev because his "Amur Tiger" Center works in this area.
Batalov did not witness the killing, he just found a tiger feeding on the remains of a bear so he just "assumes" that it killed it. He needs alot more proof than that. The case has alot of discrepancies. And once again, that account is not a scientific article, meaning its not part of any predation study. Also, Ochakarik supposedly killed Chlamid sometime in October 2017, but a mod on this forum "Shadow" had contact with Batalov and told him that Chlamid was las seen in early winter 2018, you can read this here, thread "big cat and bear tale" reply #366:
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-big-cat...9#pid90869 
@
Why did you contact Seryodkin when he has nothing to do with this case? Seryodkin is irrelevant, he doesn't even work in the Durminskoye Reserve where Batalov conducts his research. Nor does Seryodkin knows anything about the tiger 'Ochkarik', the tigress 'Rashel' or the large male brown bear 'Chlamid'. The only authority on this case is Batalov, who monitors tiger 'Ochkarik' and knows his habits. He told two different Russian journalists that 'Ochkarik' killed and ate 'Chlamid'. @peter There is also a 3rd report, reporting that 'Ochkarik' killed and ate 'Chlamid':  *This image is copyright of its original author https://infourok.ru/rasskaz-o-vsemirno-i...29910.html Photos of the tigress Rachel and the "Buryak" following her (Photo by A.S.Batalov from camera traps)  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Batalov added tigers regularly prey on (large) bears in summer: "In the summer, the tigers' food intake increases: except ungulates, badgers, raccoon dogs and bears are increasingly appearing in the diet. At the same time, the pressure of predation on ungulates decreases. This is explained by with the appearance of broods, adult females of deer and wild boars become secretive and live in a limited area. Badgers and bears, on the other hand, lead an active lifestyle, especially at twilight and at night. Moving noisily in the forest in search of food or mates, they become easy prey for tigers. Adult male tigers, depending on states of hunger and self-confidence can attack almost any animal." About three decades ago, Matyushkin also concluded (male) Amur tigers targeted large bears at times:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://old.rgazu.ru/db/vestohotoved/2_5_08f.pdf
Apex Titan:
I contacted Seryodkin because if someone knows about bears and tigers in general, that's him. Also because i knew how to contact him. It does not matter if he did not follow the case, he has contacts all over, he should definitely know. But if someone can Contact Batalov, that would be great. So its that account part of a scientific article? Definitely not. Is it peer reviewed? Definitely not. Was the bear seen the next year of his supposed death? According to Shadow yes. So, this account can be 100% confirmed for you, Nyers, and others, but its not confirmed for me and others. This is just the way it is. Whoever wants to believe it, then believe it, whoever does not believe it, then we dont believe it, is as simple as this. (05-22-2021, 06:25 PM)Ursus Wrote: Batalov did not witness the killing, he just found a tiger feeding on the remains of a bear so he just "assumes" that it killed it. He needs alot more proof than that. Very strange logic. If we proceed from this logic, none of the cases of a bear killing a tiger or killing a bear by a tiger registered by researchers can not be taken into account, because probably almost 99.99% of all cases of their relationship that ended in the death of one of them were registered based on the results of studies of the remains of a deceased animal, the place of death, studying the contents of the stomachs, etc. I do not think that there is a person on our planet who was lucky enough to witness the interaction of a male amur tiger and a male ussuri brown bear. Your logic calls into question not just the conclusions of Batalov, you question one of the basic scientific methods of study. Quote:The case has alot of discrepancies. And once again, that account is not a scientific article, meaning its not part of any predation study. Also, Ochakarik supposedly killed Chlamid sometime in October 2017, but a mod on this forum "Shadow" had contact with Batalov and told him that Chlamid was las seen in early winter 2018, you can read this here, thread "big cat and bear tale" reply #366:I dont know whats going on, maybe its technical issues but i dont see screenshot of conversatio Shadow with Batalov. Can you send me picture? Quote:Too many discrepancies and questions, someone should try to contact Batalov himself. But how can you contact Batalov? Representatives of the Amur Tiger Center refused to give me Batalovs phone number, and there seems to be no other way to contact him 
TO ALL INVOLVED IN THE DEBATE
I contacted 'Nyers' to talk about an incident I consider both interesting and important. After his response, I decided for a second post. He didn't respond, because the exchange was disrupted by 'Ursus'. After 'Nyers' had responded to the challenge, another new member ('Apex Titan') stepped in. The result, to keep it short, is the exchange with 'Nyers' was terminated. What I see after a few posts only is similar to what I saw at Carnivora: the 'debate' over there didn't result in a conclusion, but in a heated exchange between members opposing each other in every possible way. Not very different from what I saw at AVA. We don't mind a good debate every now and then, but Wildfact isn't about debates per se. Our main aim is to get to good information. In order to prevent a situation described above, the thread will be closed for now. No more posts, that is. URSUS ('Pablo') Your decided to disrupt a discussion between one of the co-owners of Wildfact and a well-informed member ('Nyers') about an incident not quite to your liking. My compliments on a job well done, but every advantage has a flipside. Meaning you qualified for an official warning. The advice is to stay away from this thread. APEX TITAN ('Mountainlord') You immediately jumped to the situation 'Ursus' created. By responding in the way you did, you made sure the discussion was sunk. The advice is to stay away from this thread and to change your way of interacting when you return, meaning you leave the torpedoes at home. NYERS The invitation to discuss Batalov, 'Rachel', 'Chlamid' and 'Ochkarik' stands. In order to prevent more problems, we will continue in the tiger extinction thread. Posts 712, 713 and 714, for this reason, have been moved to that thread. Another reason to continue in that thread is the incident between 'Rachel', 'Chlamid' and 'Ochkarik' deserves more attention than it got (the tiger extinction thread has more views). MODERATION Our mod 'Tigerluver' will mod this thread from now on. Remember any member ignoring the advice he offers will be banned. LAST BUT NOT LEAST The Russian Far East is a unique region where north and south meet. Most of those interested in interactions between brown bears (northern hemisphere) and tigers (southern hemisphere) visited a few forums or read a few books, but the information offered isn't always clear, if not somewhat contradictory. The is the main reason publications not seldom result in debates. Members of forums, by the way, are not the only ones unable to get to conclusions. Hunters, rangers and biologists also seem to disagree in quite a few departments. The aim of Wildfact is to get to good information. Peer-reviewed documents top the list, but that doesn't mean other sources are out. It also doesn't mean information not discussed in these documents carries less weight. Opting for a wide scope means our members have to (learn how to) resist the urge to act on preconceived ideas and outspoken opinions. Not easy, but an open mind is needed to get to insight. Respect also is a vital ingredient of interaction. Learning how to disagree in a respectful way is as important as getting to sound conclusions. EDIT After this message was posted, 'Ursus' decided for one more attempt to dismiss Batalov. This means he qualified for a ban.
I managed to find a way to contact Batalov, if anyone has any questions you are interested in about the amur tiger, the ussuri brown bear, the ussuri black bear and the Russian Far East in general, you can leave them here. I will translate them into russian and send them to Batalov.
 *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:Thank you for your message and participation in the fate of the Durma farm and the Amur tigers that live there. Alexander Sergeevich still continues to struggle with gold miners, who stubbornly continue their work on the territory of the economy, despite the court order, and have already received a new license to continue exploration of the Durminskoye deposit.  (05-06-2021, 10:41 PM)Khan85 Wrote: There have been verified reports of Bengals at 320 kg like from Nepal (Smythies 1942) but a hunting record is a hunting record and can always be questioned at some time.Hi man, nice to meet you again. I've checked those pages where the 320 kg or 705 lb bengal is mentioned and I've also read all the screenshots of scientists and gentlemen accepting the record whereas a scientist accepted the 306 kg captive amur but disregarded the 320 kg bengal. But were all those scientists referring to the SAME 320 kg Nepal bengal or are there any other hunting records of bengals attaining that body weight? If yes can you please list them? And about the 345 kg tiger i can't find any sites mentioning it so where did you all get infos about it?  (06-07-2021, 12:50 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote:(05-06-2021, 10:41 PM)Khan85 Wrote: There have been verified reports of Bengals at 320 kg like from Nepal (Smythies 1942) but a hunting record is a hunting record and can always be questioned at some time.Hi man, nice to meet you again. Yes, all those zoologists were referring to the same 320 kg tiger from Nepal. That is one animal About the 345 kg tiger, it was told to Pckts first by a FD worker in Pilibhit through personal communication. Later other posters also inquired to him, including me and we got the same response (that the tiger was weighed 345 kg) but because the number is so high, unless it is published in some scientific records I think we should not use it as a fact. |
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