Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Luipaard]

Here's an interesting read. Written by wildlife researcher Stefan Pociask:

How Often Do Jaguars And Pumas Meet In The Wild?

"...So where do we begin, in order to answer this question? Well, very clearly, we should begin with the multi-year study that was devoted almost precisely to the crux of this question! This study was already cited in another’s answer to this question, but given a particular connection that I have to this study… I might be able to add additional perspective to it. The study can be found here: Jaguar interactions with pumas and prey at the northern edge of jaguars’ range.

They concentrated on an area in northern Sonora, Mexico. This is a relatively arid area, and is an example of only one of many different types of ecosystems that these two cats share. I won’t paraphrase their findings, as I don’t want to misconstrue anything. But I will make some comments of my interpretation. In arid areas such as northern Mexico, the jaguars tend to be smaller than their South American brethren. This puts them into a range that is very close in size to the puma that also make their homes there. This makes for a relationship that is specific to Northern Mexico, and the specifics of this relationship can’t necessarily be applied to all puma/jaguar relationships across the Americas. In a situation where the jaguar and puma are of similar size, they have found a way to co-exist.

Two large, similar sized predators are aware that neither has anything to gain, and much to lose, by tangling with the other. There is no point in trying to be dominant over the other through physical confrontations, as it is likely that both will walk away with substantial injuries. Who needs that, right? So, I guess their relationship is one of mutual respect. If they come upon each other in these areas, they tend to essentially give a tip of the hat to each other… perhaps one may say “What’s up?”… the other responding with “Hey, what’s up?”… a mutual nod, and they go on about their business, back toward their neck of the woods.

This means little to a puma. No biggie. In a fight, a puma will outmaneuver those jaws in a heart beat. Sure, if jag can get puma’s head in its grip… it’s curtains. But puma has equal claws, can have equal weight, and the quickness to give its own version of an ass-whoopin’ on a jaguar. All this to say that, even though jaguars have been known to eat over a hundred different species, their relatively low litheness, compared to a puma, often makes small prey too much of an energy expenditure to bother with. Jag would rather go take down that 1200 pound bull grazing too close to the wood line… because he can. Meanwhile, puma will be happy to supplement its diet with a dozen squirrels and a bird or two… because he can. So that explains why the extremes in their prey go in different directions, despite being equally matched. But still… both would choose a calf or a deer if available."

Full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/12/19/how-often-do-jaguars-and-pumas-meet-in-the-wild/#2741853a3d43 Reply

[Balam]

(10-14-2020, 09:21 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: There is an exception to the rule, there was a fight between a jaguar and puma, which were of similar sizes, and the jaguar ran away, so let's end it there, that a cougar can beat a jaguar of equal or smaller size, but not a much larger jaguar (like in the Pantanal):

The cougar is my second favorite cat and in no way am I trying to discredit it, cougars are some of the most powerful felids lb for lb, and for their size are capable of bringing down larger prey in proportion to their sizes who are in the same class as what lions and tigers hunt (moose, elk, adult wild horse). Certainly the largest individuals of their species can potential hold their grounds in a fight against a decently sized jaguar, but the initial point I tried to make is that in the instances where there is a large size difference the larger cat will unequivocally come on top. As impressive as cougars are they still don't match jaguars in terms of robustness in the places where they cohabit. As DJ showed before, in the Cerrado where cougars have been known to attain large sizes as well the hierarchy between both species is marked and clear, the same could be said of other grassland environments.

The video you posted is very popular and belongs to a staged scene in a movie that involved two females of each species from northern Mexico, it was not a real fight and if you pay close attention 60% of the time both cats appear to be playing rather than fighting. As stated before mutual respect between them does exist in the areas where jaguars are smaller and more similar in size to cougars, but as shown by the evidence, killings of cougars by jaguars is witnessed even in these areas.

Cougars have their own  impressive feats with other carnivores which involve the killing of similar or somewhat larger black bears and wolves, that is commendable on its own and shows that these cats demand respect and are far from pushovers. But to close this conversation, in my opinion a jaguar is still stronger lb for lb, and this isn't to take away form the cougar but is to the merit of the unique morphology of jaguars. Reply

[Pckts]

(10-14-2020, 09:21 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: @Balam @Dark Jaguar @Pckts @Shadow There is an exception to the rule, there was a fight between a jaguar and puma, which were of similar sizes, and the jaguar ran away, so let's end it there, that a cougar can beat a jaguar of equal or smaller size, but not a much larger jaguar (like in the Pantanal):

I'm curious if you think that is a fight as opposed to staged interaction between two cats who are playing?
here's the actual video

Also, pay attention to which animal is the more powerful, it's the Jaguar who constantly is tossing the Cougar to the ground.

Here you see a smaller Jaguar mother running off a larger Cougar, also probably staged.

Reply

[Luipaard]

This one looks staged as well, but it's the most serious one of them all:

Reply

[Pckts]

(10-14-2020, 11:48 PM)Luipaard Wrote: This one looks staged as well, but it's the most serious one of them all:

Definitely staged as well, it's the same 2 seconds on loop.

Old trainers always talk about using their cats for movies, before Peta this seems to be a common practice. Just imagine trying to get Roar made nowadays? 
It's for the best though I think. Reply

[Pckts]

(10-14-2020, 10:15 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Here's an interesting read. Written by wildlife researcher Stefan Pociask:

How Often Do Jaguars And Pumas Meet In The Wild?

"...So where do we begin, in order to answer this question? Well, very clearly, we should begin with the multi-year study that was devoted almost precisely to the crux of this question! This study was already cited in another’s answer to this question, but given a particular connection that I have to this study… I might be able to add additional perspective to it. The study can be found here: Jaguar interactions with pumas and prey at the northern edge of jaguars’ range.

They concentrated on an area in northern Sonora, Mexico. This is a relatively arid area, and is an example of only one of many different types of ecosystems that these two cats share. I won’t paraphrase their findings, as I don’t want to misconstrue anything. But I will make some comments of my interpretation. In arid areas such as northern Mexico, the jaguars tend to be smaller than their South American brethren. This puts them into a range that is very close in size to the puma that also make their homes there. This makes for a relationship that is specific to Northern Mexico, and the specifics of this relationship can’t necessarily be applied to all puma/jaguar relationships across the Americas. In a situation where the jaguar and puma are of similar size, they have found a way to co-exist.

Two large, similar sized predators are aware that neither has anything to gain, and much to lose, by tangling with the other. There is no point in trying to be dominant over the other through physical confrontations, as it is likely that both will walk away with substantial injuries. Who needs that, right? So, I guess their relationship is one of mutual respect. If they come upon each other in these areas, they tend to essentially give a tip of the hat to each other… perhaps one may say “What’s up?”… the other responding with “Hey, what’s up?”… a mutual nod, and they go on about their business, back toward their neck of the woods.

This means little to a puma. No biggie. In a fight, a puma will outmaneuver those jaws in a heart beat. Sure, if jag can get puma’s head in its grip… it’s curtains. But puma has equal claws, can have equal weight, and the quickness to give its own version of an ass-whoopin’ on a jaguar. All this to say that, even though jaguars have been known to eat over a hundred different species, their relatively low litheness, compared to a puma, often makes small prey too much of an energy expenditure to bother with. Jag would rather go take down that 1200 pound bull grazing too close to the wood line… because he can. Meanwhile, puma will be happy to supplement its diet with a dozen squirrels and a bird or two… because he can. So that explains why the extremes in their prey go in different directions, despite being equally matched. But still… both would choose a calf or a deer if available."

Full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/12/19/how-often-do-jaguars-and-pumas-meet-in-the-wild/#2741853a3d43

One big issue with his interpretation is that he thinks that the Cougars superior agility will be enough to keep the Jaguar from getting a grip but cats always end up grappling when the fight get's serious, sure the Cougar can hit and run but they will only be able to do this for so long until they must grapple, this is if we're talking about 2 cats that have decided to fight it out. And once that happens, you're going to have a Cat with a much stronger bite and more powerful frame, I don't see any hope for a Cougar unless a weight advantage is in it's favor. Reply

[Shadow]

It´s interesting to see always how discussions develop and how a small issue can become big. To add one remark to things, I think that many see it so, that killing a big cat demands grappling and it´s often seen in serious fights. Same time there is for instance one situation from Turkey where allegedly a tiger managed to hit perfectly right spot with one swipe and kill a lion. I have always had some doubts about that case, no photos, no nothing ever from there. But if it´s possible, then logical thing to think is, that any big cat can be killed with swipe if hitting the right spot with claws.

This just to show how these things can be speculated and many different opinions can´t be avoided. Reply

[Pckts]

(10-15-2020, 03:40 AM)Shadow Wrote: It´s interesting to see always how discussions develop and how a small issue can become big. To add one remark to things, I think that many see it so, that killing a big cat demands grappling and it´s often seen in serious fights. Same time there is for instance one situation from Turkey where allegedly a tiger managed to hit perfectly right spot with one swipe and kill a lion. I have always had some doubts about that case, no photos, no nothing ever from there. But if it´s possible, then logical thing to think is, that any big cat can be killed with swipe if hitting the right spot with claws.

This just to show how these things can be speculated and many different opinions can´t be avoided.

If we look back at the history of all big cat fights that we've seen, have we ever seen a Cat lucky enough to kill the other with a single swipe?
Then adding to that fact is that we cannot even get any information on where it actually happened, images of either cat, sex of each, etc.
My guess would be some foul play and a cover up, maybe the Lion was killed due to mismanagement and it's easier to blame the Tiger, obviously that's just a guess, I don't know for sure. Reply

[Rage2277]

that incident with a tiger swiping a lion in the neck killing it never happened and never will and you don't buy that garbage either @Shadow Reply

[Shadow]

(10-15-2020, 04:35 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: that incident with a tiger swiping a lion in the neck killing it never happened and never will and you don't buy that garbage either @Shadow

I don´t know if it´s anatomically possible to cut so deep with one swipe when talking about neck of a big cat. Even with so lucky swipe, that talking about once in million or ten million times. But as I wrote, I have doubts concerning that case and in my thoughts whatever happened in that zoo, it´s something else than told in articles and news.

But when talking about clawing, when hitting right spot it can be very painful and end fights quickly depending of situation. Those cases have been filmed in captivity and in wild. And some injuries can be quite nasty. It´s one reason why I see things as I see in this latest discussion. Reply

[Balam]

Reposting this classic set of pictures here of Mable Stark with her jaguar and Sumatran tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

At similar sizes the tigers have a bigger skull but the jaguar has a more pronounced forehead and jaws. Looking at their limbs from a sitting position they look pretty even, but my guess is the tigers will be slightly taller on a standing position. The jaguar does have a wider chest girth. Reply

[Luipaard]

"Because the leopard occurs in so many different habitats, the necessary external differences have arisen over the centuries. For example, each species has its own unique coat characteristics. They also all differ in size and physique - something this image makes clear."

*This image is copyright of its original author

Credits to Stichting SPOTS Reply

[Charger01]

COMPARING BIG CATS , URSIDS  AND 141 OTHER CARNIVORE SPECIES - BITE FORCE

Previous studies have been limited by a lack of inferred bite force data with which to examine evolutionary models such as canine bending strengths (Van Valkenburg and Ruff 1987), proposed differences between the carnivoran families (Radinsky 1981a, b), or the suggestion that extant predators of relatively large prey have evolved higher bite forces (Wroe et al. 2005). In this paper, we provide the first comprehensive database of estimated bite forces for all eight traditionally recognized carnivoran families (Gittleman 1989, Nowak 1991, Binida-Emonds et al. 1999) based on estimated muscle cross-sectional areas and lever mechanics on dry skulls and investigate relationships between bite forces and feeding ecology using a recently developed method for comparison of estimated bite forces among species with different body sizes (Wroe et al. 2005).

Source - BITE FORCES AND EVOLUTIONARY ADAPTATIONS TO FEEDING ECOLOGY IN CARNIVORES (CHRISTIANSEN AND STEPHEN WROE, 2007)
              
  Bite_Forces_and_Evolutionary_Adaptions.pdf (Size: 247.75 KB / Downloads: 6)

   
   
   


It can be seen that a Tiger (Panthera tigris ssp.) weighing 177.8kgs had an absolute bite force of 1472.1 N at canine tips and 2164.7 N at carnacial eocone, and Bite Force Quotients as 130.4 and 129.1 respectively.
Compare this to a 162.2kgs Lion (Panthera tigris ssp.), we have 1314.7 N and 2023.7 N and Bite Force Quotients as 123.8 and 128.1 respectively.

Also, in this study, this 177.8 kgs tiger had second highest absolute bite force both at canine tips and carnacial eocone, exceed only by Polar bear (Ursus maritimus) and highest absolute bite force amongst felines. Reply

[Charger01]

COMPARING BIG CATS - ROBUSTNESS OF FRONT BODY AND GRAPPLING STRENGTH AND ABILITIES

#1. Studies conducted by Samuels and Van Valkenburgh, 2009, analysing various factors that play a role in the general strength and grappling strength of the felids
Credits to Reddhole (carnivora) for posting the studies - https://carnivora.net/felid-species-grappling-ability-study-t2680.html

Front Limb Segment Ratio
(Shorter front limbs are very useful for grappling with your opponent; lower score is better)

Humerus/Radius:
1. Jaguar - 81.9%
2. Tiger - 82.4%
3. Cougar - 82.7%
4. Leopard - 83.1%
5. Lion - 89.5%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 78.9%)

Humerus/MTC 3:
1. Jaguar - 32.8%
2. Tiger - 34.0%
3. Leopard – 34.9%
5. Lion – 35.0%
4. Cougar - 36.5%
(Smilodon fatalis - 25.2%)

Humerus/Ulna (the precise value here is unknown; so I'll list them in their order):
1. Xenosmilus Hodsonae
2. Smilodon Fatalis
3. Jaguar
4. Tiger
5. Cougar
6. Lion
7. Leopard
8. Homotherium aerum
9. Homotherium ischyros

Proximal Paw Width
In addition, large prey specialists have proportionally large proximal paw widths (PAW). The width of the proximal paws facilitates a stronger, more stable grip on large prey animals during the initial attack, as it would in gripping substrate (Watkins, 2003) or while climbing (Cartmill, 1985), and allows the force to be distributed more evenly across the entire paw.

1. Tiger – 79.95%
2. Jaguar – 79.81%
3. Lion – 79.73%
4. Snow Leopard – 78.46%
5. Clouded Leopard – 77.09%
6. Leopard – 73.01%
7. Cougar – 68.01%
(Smilodon Fatalis - 100%)

Brachial Index (lower value is better in this case)
With regards to brachial index (BI), Iwaniuk et al. (1999) and Gonyea (1976a) also found similar results. Arboreal felids have shorter radii relative to humeri, and therefore a smaller brachial index (BI) because shortened distal limbs increase the mechanical advantage of forelimb flexors and extensors, allowing arboreal species to climb more effectively. Shorter limbs also lower the centre of gravity for arboreal cats favouring the ability to balance on high, narrow tree branches (Cartmill, 1985).

1. Clouded Leopard – 79.90%
2. Jaguar – 83.33%
3. Leopard – 84.87%
4. Cougar – 85.35%
5. Tiger – 85.56%
6. Snow Leopard – 89.01%
7. Lion – 91.13%

Humerus Robusticity Index
The results of this study suggest that large prey specialists have relatively robust forelimbs when compared with smaller prey specialists. Both the humerus (HRI) and radius (RRI) diaphyses were found to be consistently robust. This increased robusticity functions to protect against bending and torsion when under increased stress (Ruff and Hayes, 1983; Lanyon and Rubin, 1985), such as that encountered when grappling with large prey. The increased robustness in the humeri and radii of large prey specialists may also translate into a proportionally thicker cortical area of the humerus diaphysis, a possibility that will be explored in a future study.

1. Jaguar - 8.81%
2. Tiger - 8.53%
3. Lion - 8.44%
4. Snow Leopard - 8.15%
5. Leopard/Snow Leopard - 7.98%
6. Cougar - 7.64%

Humeral - Epicondylar Index
The humeral epicondylar index (HEI) was larger in large prey specialists. The humeral epicondyles serve as the origin for many muscles that stabilize the wrist during prey capture, such as: m. pronator teres, m. extensor carpi radialis, m. extensor carpi ulnaris, m. flexor carpi radialis, and m. flexor carpi ulnaris (Hebel and Stromberg, 1976;Schaller, 1992). The humeral epicondyles are also the point of origin of many of the digital flexor and extensor muscles that facilitate grasping of large prey during capture, such as: m. extensor digitorum communis, m. extensor digitorum lateralis, m. flexor digitorum superficialis, m. palmaris longus, and m. flexor digitorum profundus, in part (Hebel and Stromberg, 1976; Schaller, 1992). These larger epicondyles allow for larger originations and thereby larger muscles.

1. Tiger – 25.98%
2. Lion – 25.55%
3. Jaguar – 25.52%
4. Clouded Leopard – 24.11%
5. Snow Leopard – 24.10%
6. Leopard – 22.50%
7. Cougar – 21.57%

Olecranon Index
As found by Iwaniuk et al. (1999), the olecranon process of the ulna was relatively larger (OI) in large prey specialists. The triceps muscles insert on the olecranon process and are used primarily in arm extension. Increased size of these muscles would proffer a greater ability to push prey to the ground and hold them down while they position themselves for a killing bite.

1. Tiger – 22.47%
2. Snow Leopard – 21.19%
3. Lion – 20.78%
4. Jaguar – 19.92%
5. Leopard – 18.73%
6. Clouded Leopard – 18.07%
7. Cougar – 17.56%

Radial Robusticity Index
This measures radius mediolateral diameter at midshaft divided by radius length. As mentioned above for humerus robusticity, a robust radius resists stresses on bones during fights and increases resistance to bites to the forelimb.

1. Jaguar - 10.16%
2. Clouded Leopard - 9.69%
3. Tiger - 9.45%
4. Lion - 9.15%
5. Cougar - 8.99%
6. Leopard - 8.89%
7. Snow Leopard - 8.82%

Manus Proportions
Small prey specialists also have elongated phalanges relative to metacarpals (MCP), which again shows distal elongation. Distal elongation likely provides a velocity advantage for catching small, elusive prey.

1. Clouded Leopard – 60.53%
2. Snow Leopard – 56.04%
3. Tiger – 48.91%
4. Jaguar – 47.36%
5. Lion – 39.01%
6. Cougar – 29.33%
7. Leopard – 27.19%

Radial Articular Area
In addition, large prey specialists differed significantly from both of the other groups in having relatively broader paws (PAW), and larger distal radial and metacarpal articular surface areas (RAI, RAA, and MC3RAA).

1. Tiger – 13.11%
2. Jaguar – 12.19%
3. Clouded Leopard – 11.47%
4. Cougar – 11.38%
5. Lion – 11.30%
6. Snow Leopard – 11.18%
7. Leopard – 11.00%

Humeral Condylar Index
The distal articulation of the humerus (HCI) is also relatively larger in large prey specialists. Andersson (2004) also found increased distal articular area of the humerus in forelimb grappling carnivorans. This portion of the humerus articulates with the ulna and is responsible  for unilateral extension of the forearm and pronation and supination of the antebrachium. A larger articular area would provide more stability for antebrachial extension and non-parasagittal movements (Gonyea and Ashworth, 1975; Gonyea, 1978; Andersson, 2004), a wider range of motion for forearm positioning and prey grappling and also an increased ability to better distribute large loads (Ruff, 1988).

1. Lion – 18.00%
2. Jaguar/Tiger – 17.21%
3. Clouded Leopard – 16.63%
4. Snow Leopard – 16.43%
5. Leopard – 15.38%
6. Cougar – 14.35%

Metacarpal 3 Robustness Index
This measures the robusticity of metacarpal 3 or longest finger/digit. More robust metacarpal 3 may assist with grappling or stresses exerted with feet on ground during a fight.

1. Jaguar – 13.41%
2. Lion – 12.52%
3. Clouded Leopard – 12.19%
4. Tiger – 12.09%
5. Snow Leopard – 12.08%
6. Leopard – 11.95%
7. Cougar – 11.30%

Humeral Distal Articular Area
Andersson (2004) also found increased distal articular area of the humerus in forelimb grappling carnivorans. This portion of the humerus articulates with the ulna and is responsible for unilateral extension of the forearm and pronation and supination of the antebrachium. A larger articular area would provide more stability for antebrachial extension and non-parasagittal movements (Gonyea and Ashworth, 1975; Gonyea,1978; Andersson, 2004), a wider range of motion for forearm positioning and prey grappling and also an increased ability to better distribute larger loads (Ruff, 1988).

1. Tiger – 17.61%
2. Lion – 17.17%
3. Jaguar – 16.25%
4. Snow Leopard – 15.51%

Radial Articular Area
Even if the same scaling processes that act on the skull do not act on the forelimbs, negative allometry in limb bone lengths and positive allometry in muscle attachment sites and articular areas helps to reinforce the forelimbs against the stresses encountered by large, struggling prey.


1. Tiger – 13.11%
2. Jaguar – 12.19%
3. Clouded Leopard – 11.47%
4. Cougar – 11.38%
5. Lion – 11.30%
6. Snow Leopard – 11.18%
7. Leopard – 11.00%

Metacarpal 3 Distal Articular Area
Proximal paw width (PAW) and the distal articular area of the third metacarpal (MC3RAA) differed significantly among prey size and locomotor groups. Both variables would confer an advantage while climbing. As in large prey specialists, a wider paw would increase the surface area of the manus while climbing and increase frictional resistance (Cartmill, 1985). Greater distal articular area of the metacarpals would increase the range of motion in the digits to assure a better grip while climbing on thinner branches (Ruff,1988).

1. Jaguar – 13.41%
2. Lion – 12.52%
3. Clouded Leopard – 12.19%
4. Tiger – 12.09%
5. Snow Leopard – 12.08%
6. Leopard – 11.95%

Canine ML Diameter
(Basically, measures the robusticity of the canines using a length/width - ratio)

1. Tiger - 18.26
2. Lion - 17.07
3. Jaguar - 13.43
4. Leopard - 11.27
5. Cougar - 9.84
6. Clouded Leopard - 8.50
7. Snow Leopard - 5.93
(Panthera atrox - 21.28)
(Smilodon fatalis - 18.80)


#2. Osteology and ecology of Megantereon cultridens SE311 (Mammalia; Felidae; Machairodontinae) [Christiansen and Adolfssen, 2007]
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1096-3642.2007.00333.x

This study by Christiansen and Adolfssen, 2007 shows great extent of Humerus robustness overlap among Lions and Tigers suggesting it is an individual characteristic

   

□, Panthera leo (N = 17) ◊, Panthera tigris (N = 19)



Thus it can be concluded that robustness of various bones and parts of body varies greatly among felines and depends directly on size. When comparing different species of felines, there is no species that can be considered absolutely more robust than other at same size, as it can be seen that robustness is an individual characteristic. Reply

[Spalea]

@"Khan85" : " It can be seen that a Tiger (Panthera tigris ssp.) weighing 177.8kgs had an absolute bite force of 1472.1 N at canine tips and 2164.7 N at carnacial eocone, and Bite Force Quotients as 130.4 and 129.1 respectively.

Compare this to a 162.2kgs Lion (Panthera tigris ssp.), we have 1314.7 N and 2023.7 N and Bite Force Quotients as 123.8 and 128.1 respectively."


Where are the so-called specialists, "at me scratch my balls", who never ceased to claim that lions only have a 670 N bite force while the tiger an exceeding 1000 N bite force ?
I only see that the bite force force difference between tigers and lions is very weak, in order not to say insignificant...

By the way, figures say everything... And its contrary. Reply