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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
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2 adult male jaguars from the Cerrado, Both weighing 104 kg.

credits: Nex No Extinction and IOP



Left: Xangô Cerrado male (104 kg)

Right: 151.633 Cerrado male (104 kg)



*This image is copyright of its original author
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Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
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Zezão vs Xangô

Comparison between 2 males from 2 population of jaguars that produces 100 kg's range males (Porto Primavera & Cerrado) specially the Porto Primavera jaguars (before it got  flooded) who used to directly rival in size with those from the Pantanal.



Zezão male  

Area: Porto Primavera

Measure Method: Straight Lines

Source: Peter Crawshaw




Head girth: 70.5 cm

Neck girth: 58.5 cm

Thorax girth: 99 cm

Shoulder height: 80.0 cm

Body length: 143.0 cm

Tail length: 67 cm

Full Body length: 210 cm

Weight: 110 kg







Xangô male

Area: Cerrado

Measure Method: Over the Curves

Source: NEX No Extinction




Head girth: 69 cm

Neck girth: 61 cm

Thorax girth: 108 cm

Shoulder height: 63 cm

Body length: 149 cm

Tail length: 62 cm

Full Body length: 211 cm

Weight: 104 kg





Comparison.

Zezão got a head 1.5 cm larger than Xangô's head but Xangô have a 2.5 cm thicker neck circumference as well as a 9 cm thicker thorax than Zezão but Zezão is much taller than Xangô which even measured over the curves Xangô measured 63 cm on the shoulders being 7 cm lower in height than Zezão, whereas Xangô over the curves is 6 cm longer on body length, Zezão is 5 cm longer on the tail length department with the result of Xangô over the curves being a 1 cm longer cat in total length than Zezão between the pegs meanwhile Zezão is the heavier cat by 6 kg over Xangô.



Conclusion.

Zezão in comparison is heavier and a rather tall male also besting Xangô on the department IMO jaguars shines the most (Head Girth Size) Zezão takes this with a bigger head ( which looks to be even bigger than its actual measure) meanwhile Xangô is the typical low to the ground, stocky and broad male with a very low height, However, what Xangô lacks in height he compensates on what jags do best which is being broad, thick, wide and bulky.



Zezão


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Xangô


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United States Pckts Offline
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Canada Balam Offline
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(06-22-2021, 07:48 PM)Pckts Wrote:
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This book is excellent and thanks for sharing the whole pages so people can read the full context and not carefully selected excerpt to give a false impression. It seems like people who have seen African big cats get surprised when they see Pantanal jaguars because they don't expect them to be so large. He has seen multiple lions and leopards at Sabi Sands and these are his thoughts (that's Kyra and her daughter Patricia which is also shown in the book pages from your post):


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*This image is copyright of its original author

His opinions are mirrored by that of Londolozi trackers:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Btw, based on your safari experience and knowing what we know now about average Pantanal male jaguar sizes, how would Aju (an average male) compare with the lionesses and tigress you've seen?
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United States Pckts Offline
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(06-22-2021, 08:55 PM)Balam Wrote:
(06-22-2021, 07:48 PM)Pckts Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

This book is excellent and thanks for sharing the whole pages so people can read the full context and not carefully selected excerpt to give a false impression. It seems like people who have seen African big cats get surprised when they see Pantanal jaguars because they don't expect them to be so large. He has seen multiple lions and leopards at Sabi Sands and these are his thoughts (that's Kyra and her daughter Patricia which is also shown in the book pages from your post):


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

His opinions are mirrored by that of Londolozi trackers:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Btw, based on your safari experience and knowing what we know now about average Pantanal male jaguar sizes, how would Aju (an average male) compare with the lionesses and tigress you've seen?

Quote:Btw, based on your safari experience and knowing what we know now about average Pantanal male jaguar sizes, how would Aju (an average male) compare with the lionesses and tigress you've seen?
Aju and Marley seemed to be the same dimensions in terms of frame *about the size of a large Rottweiler or Bull Mastiff* but Aju was a tank, he was much more dense than Marley and his head was massive. 
But Marley was still a sub adult at this time although Aju looks to be good sized now a days as well, I'm still curious how'd they stack up as adults.

That being said, I've been lucky enough to see a small Tigress *85kg Choti Tara* and a Massive Tigress *Largest female Cat I've ever seen* named Link 8.
I've also seen Lioness of all sizes as well. If we were to compare a Tigress like Choti Tara to Aju, I'd say she was a little larger in frame *longer and taller* but no where near as bulky in girth. But when talking about the really big Tigress like Link 8 or the Durga Female, they are quite a bit larger than Aju. They are significantly taller and longer and their bulk is on par. The Durga female was smaller in dimensions than Link 8 but quite muscular where the Link 8 female looked to be as large as a smaller male but not quite as muscular as the Durga female but still very muscular. The Lioness didn't seem as muscular as the Tigress but still would out size Aju for the most part. 
I can't imagine how bulky a 140+ KG Jaguar must be, they really are the most stocky big cat you can imagine even with their long, curved spines.
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Canada Balam Offline
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Credits to @epaiva for initially posting this really nice scan from one of Mauricio Anton's book going into detail as to why jaguars have such a potent bite. Mauricio made a comparison with the leopard who has a completely different skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars have shorter rostrums and wide zygomatic arches, which is the complete opposite of leopards who have long rostrum and narrow zygomatic arches. All of this proportionally but since jaguars are significantly larger cats they also end up having the longer skulls at maximum lengths for virtue of size. 

Having a shorter but wider skull provides more leverage around the jaw which increases the bite force, as shown by the scissors analogy.

Here's a jaguar and leopard side by side at sanctuary:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

In addition to jaguars having wider and shorter skulls (proportionally), their skull is also much taller and the forehead is pronounced as opposed to the leopard's which is more concave. 

In the first two pictures one can appreciate how the leopard skull could fit twice in the jaguar's since the former has a much taller and wider head, and this is with a jaguar that weighed 90 kg and was much smaller than the jaguars who live in the wild in floodplain areas that grow much larger than that, the difference in size would be much more outspoken. The leopard on the other hand would be standard for a large male if we assume it to be only somewhat smaller than the jaguar based on these pictures, likely around 80 kg in weight.
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Luipaard Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-25-2021, 10:31 PM by Luipaard )

Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

Lateral view of a leopard skull and a jaguar skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: What is a Snow Leopard? Taxonomy, Morphology, and Phylogeny

Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.
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Canada Balam Offline
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(06-25-2021, 10:22 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

Lateral view of a leopard skull and a jaguar skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: What is a Snow Leopard? Taxonomy, Morphology, and Phylogeny

Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.

Quote:Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

You posted this same study on another forum as if it supported your claims.

1. Leopards have completely different skulls, the excerpt from Mauricio Anton clearly highlighted these differences, you wanting them to be the same will not alter this fact.
2. They don't "completely overlap in length and width", jaguars completely outclass leopards in both regards at maximum levels because they are much larger cats at maximums and no population of leopards has proportions in skull length and width that match that of any jaguar population. The largest Persian leopard skull is the same length as the largest Mexican jaguars skull and yet it is narrower in breadth. Not to mention no leopard has ever been recorded having a skull the same size as jaguars of the largest populations, the outliers usually reach 280-288 mm in length and are a far cry away in width, and yet those are outliers vs a population average. Jaguars reach 324 mm in length and surpass 200 mm in length for the largest skulls.
3. The major differences are not only the forehead but the proportions in width and breadth, the height of the skull, and jaguars also have relatively larger lower canines, smaller p3, and shorter m1, according to Seymour (Panthera onca, 1989). 

Quote:Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

You will see what suits your biases, because those skulls look completely different to anyone that sees them from an objective point of view, and they would look even more opposite when an overview from above the two is given where the width of the skulls becomes apparent. I know you're fond of "photographic evidence" but you cannot dismiss mathematical and empirical data because it doesn't suit you, your subjective interpretations will never trump the objective data, and the same could be said between jaguar and lion skulls, completely different.

Quote:Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.

His body size is close, the skull size difference is what makes Diablo appear much larger, but I will confirm the leopard weight since visual interpretations are not always accurate. Btw 60-65 kg is higher than the average weight of an Indian or Sri Lankan leopard and about the same as the average for a Persian leopard, since you like to speak of 100 kg being the benchmark to go by Pantanal jaguars, then that same benchmark is applied to leopards based on scientific publicized averages.
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Luipaard Offline
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Quote:You posted this same study on another forum as if it supported your claims.


I'm sorry, where exactly did I post this? Also, that study gives a jaguar skull length of 204-302 mm whereas the leopard skull length is 170-273 mm thus they overlap in this regard

This is the study I think you're talking about: IDENTIFICATION OF MID-SIZE CAT SKULLS


Quote:1. Leopards have completely different skulls, the excerpt from Mauricio Anton clearly highlighted these differences, you wanting them to be the same will not alter this fact.


The book clearly mentions that the jaguar's skull is proportionally wider compared to other cats as in all cats, not just leopards. How exactly does that make the skull 'completely different'? You realise that they're from the same genus right? In India they even mistook a tigress skull for a large male leopard so how exactly is a jaguar 'completely' different when a (small) tigress skull isn't?


Quote:2. They don't "completely overlap in length and width", jaguars completely outclass leopards in both regards at maximum levels because they are much larger cats at maximums and no population of leopards has proportions in skull length and width that match that of any jaguar population.


Read my first paragraph; they clearly overlap in dimensions. Just because they don't at maximums doesn't mean they don't in general.


Quote:The largest Persian leopard skull is the same length as the largest Mexican jaguars skull and yet it is narrower in breadth.


Mind posting that particular Mexian jaguar's dimensions?


Quote:the outliers usually reach 280-288 mm in length and are a far cry away in width


They're not a far cry away at all. The widest leopard skull is either 191 mm or 200 mm depending which type of source you consider reliable. That's very close or greater than the average width of the average male jaguar skull from the largest populations. Again it depends which source you go by.


Quote:The major differences are not only the forehead but the proportions in width and breadth, the height of the skull, and jaguars also have relatively larger lower canines, smaller p3, and shorter m1, according to Seymour (Panthera onca, 1989).


Again they overlap completely so you'll have leopard skulls being larger, heavier and taller than a jaguar skull.


Quote:You will see what suits your biases, because those skulls look completely different to anyone that sees them from an objective point of view, and they would look even more opposite when an overview from above the two is given where the width of the skulls becomes apparent. I know you're fond of "photographic evidence" but you cannot dismiss mathematical and empirical data because it doesn't suit you, your subjective interpretations will never trump the objective data, and the same could be said between jaguar and lion skulls, completely different.


I think you should compare these two Pantherinae skulls to cougar and cheetah ones. Perhaps then you will understand the difference in build and structure. It's also funny that you speak of data since I've clearly proven they overlap in dimensions. What I posted wasn't subjective but came directly from a scientific study.


Quote:His body size is close, the skull size difference is what makes Diablo appear much larger, but I will confirm the leopard weight since visual interpretations are not always accurate. Btw 60-65 kg is higher than the average weight of an Indian or Sri Lankan leopard and about the same as the average for a Persian leopard, since you like to speak of 100 kg being the benchmark to go by Pantanal jaguars, then that same benchmark is applied to leopards based on scientific publicized averages.


What? You clearly said on another forum that Shazam looks bigger than he really is because he's standing on a sand bank. Now all of a sudden he's 90% the size of the jaguar? You know well that an 80kg leopard is a large male, are you seriously telling me Shazam is a large individual? Not even close.

The reason I estimate him 60kg-65kg is because he's captive and captive animals tend to be bigger due to being overweight although Shazam seemed in pretty good shape for captive animal standards.

I'm not sure what wild leopard average weights have to do with my estimation of Shazam's weight but you're incorrect. For example, Indian male leopards in Maharashtra, central India averaged 63,4kg (source: Morphometry of Leopards From Maharashtra, India) so theoretically speaking Shazam is the size of an average Indian male. I'm okay with that.
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(06-25-2021, 10:22 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

Lateral view of a leopard skull and a jaguar skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: What is a Snow Leopard? Taxonomy, Morphology, and Phylogeny

Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.

You don't notice any differences between these 2 skulls?


It's fairly easy to see differences in the nasal projection and bone above the orbital, the differences in the zygomatic arch, the Mandible height and shape as well as the sagital crest and auditory bullae.
You could put a Homosapien skull and Homoerectus skull side by side and they'd be "similar" but certainly not the same.
You have to look closely since we're still comparing Panthera's and all of their skulls will be similar to one another but certainly not the same.
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Luipaard Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-26-2021, 12:45 AM by Luipaard )

(06-26-2021, 12:25 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2021, 10:22 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

Lateral view of a leopard skull and a jaguar skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: What is a Snow Leopard? Taxonomy, Morphology, and Phylogeny

Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.

You don't notice any differences between these 2 skulls?


It's fairly easy to see differences in the nasal projection and bone above the orbital, the differences in the zygomatic arch, the Mandible height and shape as well as the sagital crest and auditory bullae.
You could put a Homosapien skull and Homoerectus skull side by side and they'd be "similar" but certainly not the same.
You have to look closely since we're still comparing Panthera's and all of their skulls will be similar to one another but certainly not the same.

But that's literally the whole point. The differences you mentoned are all because of the size difference e.g. mandible height, zygomatic arch. Being similar is far from being completely different. I wish we could compared two similar-sized skulls; the leopard skull would be longer whereas the jaguar skull would be wider. I guess the jaguar skull would be more robust too but overall? Quite similar unlike let's say a cougar skull which is in fact completely different in build and structure. Put a tiger, lion, jaguar and leopard skull of the same size next to each other and you would instantly notice they're all similar, even difficult to identify individually.

This claim of jaguar skulls being completely different than leopard skulls is just false.
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Canada Balam Offline
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(06-26-2021, 12:09 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
Quote:You posted this same study on another forum as if it supported your claims.


I'm sorry, where exactly did I post this? Also, that study gives a jaguar skull length of 204-302 mm whereas the leopard skull length is 170-273 mm thus they overlap in this regard

This is the study I think you're talking about: IDENTIFICATION OF MID-SIZE CAT SKULLS


Quote:1. Leopards have completely different skulls, the excerpt from Mauricio Anton clearly highlighted these differences, you wanting them to be the same will not alter this fact.


The book clearly mentions that the jaguar's skull is proportionally wider compared to other cats as in all cats, not just leopards. How exactly does that make the skull 'completely different'? You realise that they're from the same genus right? In India they even mistook a tigress skull for a large male leopard so how exactly is a jaguar 'completely' different when a (small) tigress skull isn't?


Quote:2. They don't "completely overlap in length and width", jaguars completely outclass leopards in both regards at maximum levels because they are much larger cats at maximums and no population of leopards has proportions in skull length and width that match that of any jaguar population.


Read my first paragraph; they clearly overlap in dimensions. Just because they don't at maximums doesn't mean they don't in general.


Quote:The largest Persian leopard skull is the same length as the largest Mexican jaguars skull and yet it is narrower in breadth.


Mind posting that particular Mexian jaguar's dimensions?


Quote:the outliers usually reach 280-288 mm in length and are a far cry away in width


They're not a far cry away at all. The widest leopard skull is either 191 mm or 200 mm depending which type of source you consider reliable. That's very close or greater than the average width of the average male jaguar skull from the largest populations. Again it depends which source you go by.


Quote:The major differences are not only the forehead but the proportions in width and breadth, the height of the skull, and jaguars also have relatively larger lower canines, smaller p3, and shorter m1, according to Seymour (Panthera onca, 1989).


Again they overlap completely so you'll have leopard skulls being larger, heavier and taller than a jaguar skull.


Quote:You will see what suits your biases, because those skulls look completely different to anyone that sees them from an objective point of view, and they would look even more opposite when an overview from above the two is given where the width of the skulls becomes apparent. I know you're fond of "photographic evidence" but you cannot dismiss mathematical and empirical data because it doesn't suit you, your subjective interpretations will never trump the objective data, and the same could be said between jaguar and lion skulls, completely different.


I think you should compare these two Pantherinae skulls to cougar and cheetah ones. Perhaps then you will understand the difference in build and structure. It's also funny that you speak of data since I've clearly proven they overlap in dimensions. What I posted wasn't subjective but came directly from a scientific study.


Quote:His body size is close, the skull size difference is what makes Diablo appear much larger, but I will confirm the leopard weight since visual interpretations are not always accurate. Btw 60-65 kg is higher than the average weight of an Indian or Sri Lankan leopard and about the same as the average for a Persian leopard, since you like to speak of 100 kg being the benchmark to go by Pantanal jaguars, then that same benchmark is applied to leopards based on scientific publicized averages.


What? You clearly said on another forum that Shazam looks bigger than he really is because he's standing on a sand bank. Now all of a sudden he's 90% the size of the jaguar? You know well that an 80kg leopard is a large male, are you seriously telling me Shazam is a large individual? Not even close.

The reason I estimate him 60kg-65kg is because he's captive and captive animals tend to be bigger due to being overweight although Shazam seemed in pretty good shape for captive animal standards.

I'm not sure what wild leopard average weights have to do with my estimation of Shazam's weight but you're incorrect. For example, Indian male leopards in Maharashtra, central India averaged 63,4kg (source: Morphometry of Leopards From Maharashtra, India) so theoretically speaking Shazam is the size of an average Indian male. I'm okay with that.

Quote:I'm sorry, where exactly did I post this? Also, that study gives a jaguar skull length of 204-302 mm whereas the leopard skull length is 170-273 mm thus they overlap in this regard

This is the study I think you're talking about: IDENTIFICATION OF MID-SIZE CAT SKULLS

You and I both know where you posted it, that's why you knew exactly which study I was referring to despite not giving much information about it at all. Shortridge isn't your only alternate alias. They overlap to an extent in that study, not completely, but I'll go over that later on.

Quote:The book clearly mentions that the jaguar's skull is proportionally wider compared to other cats as in all cats, not just leopards. How exactly does that make the skull 'completely different'? You realise that they're from the same genus right? In India they even mistook a tigress skull for a large male leopard so how exactly is a jaguar 'completely' different when a (small) tigress skull isn't?

So is the leopard not another cat? If the skull of jaguars is completely different from other cats not only does that support my previous statements but directly contradicts your wrongful assumptions of both species having identical skulls. Being from the same genus means nothing when they are wired for different lifestyles and their morphology is a reflection of those lifestyles. Irbises are also Panthera cats, yet you're one of the people that gets triggered whenever they are compared to leopards.

The skull of the Indian tigress was never fully recognized as a leopard skull, the confusion had been derived from verbal descriptions of the fur of the animal killed which was dark. Because the dimensions of the skull were significantly above the threshold for what leopards achieve, it was later concluded to belong to a sub-adult tigress. Not to mention that this has little to nothing to do with what I initially stated, jaguars aren't tigresses so you're reasoning behind bringing this up is once again, bizarre.

Quote:Read my first paragraph; they clearly overlap in dimensions. Just because they don't at maximums doesn't mean they don't in general.

This is what you said:

"Despite this they completely overlap in length and width."

The word "completely" implies a total overlap in dimensions, which is false. The overlap in skull sizes between jaguars and leopards only occurs between specific populations, the largest jaguars outclass leopards by a very large margin (both averages and maximums). And the proportions of skull widths and lengths between populations of the two species is very different as well.

Quote:Mind posting that particular Mexian jaguar's dimensions?

This has been shared here before and I've already gone over this with you, from Cranial measurements of jaguars (Panthera onca) from the State of Oaxaca, Mexico (Lavariega & Salas):


*This image is copyright of its original author

The skull length of the largest male is 288 mm, the same as the length of the largest Persian leopard skull, yet its width of 196 is much greater than the width of 181 of the leopard and at par with averages of jaguars from floodplain areas of South America.

Quote:They're not a far cry away at all. The widest leopard skull is either 191 mm or 200 mm depending which type of source you consider reliable. That's very close or greater than the average width of the average male jaguar skull from the largest populations. Again it depends which source you go by.

Hold on, you're using the 200 mm skull that came from that hunting book from the Tanzanian specimen that had a length of 11 inches? So you're now comparing hunting records that cannot be verified to scientifically gathered measurements in peer-review papers and think this somehow makes your point more valid? There are hunting records of jaguars at 180 kg, according to your reasoning we should be using that weight as the new standard for maximums for the species. 

The 191 mm leopard is the only one that can be compared to the skulls of jaguars and that specific outlier represents less than 0% of the skulls of leopards worldwide because the vast majority of leopards skulls don't come anywhere near close to this width and yet it still fails to match the average for floodplain jaguars or the width for the largest Mexican jaguar skull. Not to mention that the broadest jaguar skull measured 223 mm and belonged to an average-sized Pantanal male of 106 kg, another male from the Venezuelan Llanos yielded a skull length of 223 mm and was included in a scientific paper from Dr. Hoogesteijn, these measurements are similar in width to the skull of certain male lions, I guess using your logic jaguar skulls now "completely overlap with lion skulls".

Quote:I think you should compare these two Pantherinae skulls to cougar and cheetah ones. Perhaps then you will understand the difference in build and structure. It's also funny that you speak of data since I've clearly proven they overlap in dimensions. What I posted wasn't subjective but came directly from a scientific study.

You haven't proven a single thing nor do you understand how the morphological adaptations of felids work. Irbises have similar skulls to cougars despite belonging to a different genus. Phylogenetic proximity is pointless when evolutionary traits are developed by different species through similar ecological constraints. Your study did not support any single claim you've made so far because it directly speaks of the skull differentiations between cats of the same genus (especially the irbis), the complete opposite of what you're claiming. The rest of your claims are purely subjective "Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls". What you're seeing =/= what things really are.

Quote:I'm not sure what wild leopard average weights have to do with my estimation of Shazam's weight but you're incorrect. For example, Indian male leopards in Maharashtra, central India averaged 63,4kg (source: Morphometry of Leopards From Maharashtra, India) so theoretically speaking Shazam is the size of an average Indian male. I'm okay with that.

Sample size: 3, leopards from one specific location. If you think that this study trumps Sunquist's which has not only a larger sample size but likely leopards from different parts of Indian I don't know what to tell you. I could just as easily post scientific tables of jaguars from the Pantanal averaging 110 kg or cougars from Patagonia averaging 76 kg, but you've been hellbent on the 100 kg value based on Hoogesteijn's larger sample size for jaguars, so it's either one or the other, you cannot magically choose the highest averages for leopards because it suits you, but that's your MO so nobody is surprised here.

And I will wait on an answer for Shazam's weight, direct data is much better than guesses based on photographs.
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United States Pckts Offline
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(06-26-2021, 12:44 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(06-26-2021, 12:25 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2021, 10:22 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopards do not have 'completely different' skulls compared to jaguars. At all. At equal weights the leopard will have a longer skull and the jaguar skull will be wider. Despite this they completely overlap in length and width. The major difference will indeed be the forehead where the leopard has a convex nasal profile and the jaguar a concave nasal profile. 

Lateral view of a leopard skull and a jaguar skull:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: What is a Snow Leopard? Taxonomy, Morphology, and Phylogeny

Again I'm not seeing two entirely different skulls, just a bigger version of the other, similar to what you would see if you would compare let's say a lion skull to a jaguar skull.

Moving on to the two black panthers; based on what is Shazam, the leopard 80kg? First of all he isn't even close in size of Diablo Guapo, the jaguar. He looks as big because he's standing on a sand bank. These are your own words, you said this yourself on a different forum. Shazam looks like a 60kg-65kg male, really nothing special to be honest.

You don't notice any differences between these 2 skulls?


It's fairly easy to see differences in the nasal projection and bone above the orbital, the differences in the zygomatic arch, the Mandible height and shape as well as the sagital crest and auditory bullae.
You could put a Homosapien skull and Homoerectus skull side by side and they'd be "similar" but certainly not the same.
You have to look closely since we're still comparing Panthera's and all of their skulls will be similar to one another but certainly not the same.

But that's literally the whole point. The differences you mentoned are all because of the size difference e.g. mandible height, zygomatic arch. Being similar is far from being completely different. I wish we could compared two similar-sized skulls; the leopard skull would be longer whereas the jaguar skull would be wider. I guess the jaguar skull would be more robust too but overall? Quite similar unlike let's say a cougar skull which is in fact completely different in build and structure. Put a tiger, lion, jaguar and leopard skull of the same size next to each other and you would instantly notice they're all similar, even difficult to identify individually.

This claim of jaguar skulls being completely different than leopard skulls is just false.

OK, so again you're not looking closely.
It has nothing to do with "size''

I'll point out a few easy ones....
First is the mandible shape-The Jaguar has a concaved mandible while the Leopard has a flat/almost convcexed one.

The Nasal Projection and bone above the orbital is raised on the Jaguar and not the Leopard.

The height of the extreme distance of the mandible is more exaggerated on the Jaguar as well. 

The zygomatic arch is also more arched in the Jaguar as well as a more exaggerated sagital crest.

The distance from the  auditory bullae to the back of the mandible is much closer in the Jaguar than the leopard due to its massive size and slope of the crest.
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On the topic of skull comparisons, here is an interesting study on the morphology of cat skulls (and the performance of jaw and neck muscles), published about 10 years ago in the Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society by F. Sicuro and L. Oliveira.

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/161/2/414/2732061

This was performed with Principal Component Analysis (PCA) on various measurements. Full discussion of their methodology is provided in the link. 

In the first part on morphology, PC1 (horizontal axis) is associated with skull size, while PC2 (vertical axis) is associated with the skull shape:

The measurements mainly associated with PC2 were: anterior width across parietals, just behind the supraorbital process (POC) and the masseteric scar width (MSW), both with negative coefficients; and temporal fossa length (TFL), with a positive coefficient. PC2 is associated with the breadth of the anterior part of the braincase, masseter robustness, and the elongation of the posterior half of the skull (denoted by the length of the temporal fossa). The coefficient of POC was considerably higher than the others, indicating a leading role in the morphological aspect depicted by this PC.”

All cats in the study:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/81729526/ZOJ_636_f3.gif

And the pantherine cats in particular:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/81729530/ZOJ_636_f4.gif

The PC1 scores (Fig. 4) reflect the size superiority of the panthers among the felids (F7, 607= 240.61, P < 0.0000001; Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.0001). Lions and tigers are the largest species, and the clouded leopard is the smallest one (F5, 118= 138.30, P < 0.00001). There is no difference in the overall skull size between lions (Panthera leo) and tigers (Panthera tigris), and both are bigger than all of the other cat species (Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.001). The jaguar (Panthera onca) is the second biggest cat (P < 0.001), followed by leopards (Panthera pardus) and snow leopards (Uncia uncia), which are of the same size (P < 0.001).

The PC2 scores denote a marked dichotomy between the elongated skull pattern of the clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa), with a narrow width of anterior portion of braincase, and the short and broad skull of U. uncia. The intermediate-sized panthers (P. onca and P. pardus) show a bias to the elongated/narrow pattern, whereas the big panthers have more regular skulls. The PC2 scores indicate no significant differences between lions and tigers (F5, 118= 45.16, P < 0.00001; Tukey's HSD test, P> 0.18), regarding the skull measurements associated with the second principal component. This could be noted as an overall morphological similarity between the skulls of P. leo and P. tigris, despite the conspicuous features exhibited by these species. However, this result takes into account the pooled within variance among the very diverse panther species. The direct comparison between the PC2 scores of P. leo and P. tigris indicates that they are clearly different (F1, 41= 6.81, P < 0.01).

The comparison of measurement ratios allowed for a better perception of the panthers skull design. For instance, U. uncia shows the largest postorbital constriction (POC/CBL, F5, 118= 33.51, P < 0.00001; Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.001) among the panthers; N. nebulosa possesses the highest proportion of temporal fossa length (TFL/CBL, F5, 118= 33.80, P < 0.00001; Tukey's HSD test, HSD test, P < 0.04). Panthera leo and P. onca equally show the largest ratios of height of jaw bone at M1(JHM1/CBL, F5, 118= 24.54, P < 0.00001; Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.04); whereas P. tigris exhibits the widest jaw bone at M1(JWM1/CBL, F5, 118= 13.14, P < 0.00001; Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.04). These two latter measurements are related to the robustness of the dental bone, and, together, they are indicative of the potential load that a jaw could resist during the bite.

(Cont.)”

The second part focused on force indexes. Here, PC1 is indicative of bite strength and neck muscle robustness, while PC2 is associated with “contribution of the temporalis and masseter mechanical systems to the final bite force” / “the influence of the skull design to the jaw muscles performance.”

Not surprisingly, lions and tigers topped the list, with jaguars coming in third and leopards fourth:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/81729598/ZOJ_636_f12.gif


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/81729601/ZOJ_636_f13.gif

Panthers, as expected, have the most powerful bite and neck robustness among felids (Fig. 13). Lions (P. leo) and tigers (P. tigris) show a similar final bite force, with both of them being more powerful than all other cats (H26, 599 = 563.97, P < 0.0001, Dunn's testP < 0.01). A bite strength gradient is observed on other panthers, with an obvious correlation to their skull and body sizes. Leopards (P. pardus) and snow leopards (U. uncia) show a similar efficiency on jaw occlusion (Dunn's testP > 0.05), despite their skull shape differences.

Lions and tigers share an overall similarity in skull morphology and size, and have the same potential for strong bites at the canines. However, according to PC2, the jaw occlusion of P. leo is greatly influenced by the action of the masseteric complex, which is quite different from that of P. tigris(F5, 118 = 57.97, P < 0.0001; Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.001).

Tigers (P. tigris) show the same pattern in jaw occlusion that is observed in jaguars (P. onca), leopards (P. pardus), and snow leopards (U. uncia). All these species display a smaller contribution of the masseteric muscle system to the bite than that observed in lions (P. leo).
On the other hand, the jaw occlusion of clouded leopards is deeply marked by the mechanical system of the temporalis muscle (PC2 scores, Tukey's HSD test, P < 0.001), and the participation of the masseteric complex is much less substantial than that observed in other panthers. 

(Cont.)”

There’s more info in that link, including contrasts between the morphological and functional analyses.
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