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(09-12-2020, 09:44 PM)titose Wrote: Are The Northern Avoca Male Lions Looking For More Territory?
James Tyrrell recently summarised the general lion dynamics on Londolozi. The male lion dynamics of the Sabi Sands have drawn special attention over the years, particularly during the reign of the mighty Mapogo coalition and thereafter the Majingilane males. Witnessing male lions fight over territory is exhilarating to say the least. At present, the two remaining Birmingham males reign over much of Londolozi and into Mala Mala to our east. They are currently siring 14 cubs in the Ntsevu pride and the single Tsalala female’s youngster in addition to those that they fathered as they ventured south away from their natal area. However, it would appear that we are nearing a shift in dynamics…
More and more often we are hearing the roars from the Avoca males to our north. From what we are told, there are three brothers, of which two spend most of their time together and the third apart. On several occasions now, two Avoca males have ventured right through northern Londolozi and even crossed south over the Sand River. This is right into the Birmingham males’ territory.
When together, we have heard them roaring from within the Birmingham males’ territory. This is a direct threat to the current dominant males reign over the area. The trouble is, the Birmingham males have established such a large territory that there are opportunities for other males to sneak in unnoticed. The Birmingham males were born in 2010 and were once a coalition of five. Now down to two and soon to be eleven years old, they are nearing the end of their tenure.
From a male lion’s perspective, the more territory that you can take over, the greater the chance of finding receptive lionesses with which you can mate and spread your genes. This is a natural progression as males grow in size and confidence. It would seem that the two Avoca males are pushing further and further into the heart of Londolozi now as they reach their prime. Just a few days ago, we found one alone on the southern bank of the Sand River. He called several times, before walking right across the breadth of the reserve in response to two lions calling in the far north east of the area. We eventually left him walking and scent marking as he headed straight towards Mala Mala to the east. This is a bold move, as he traversed right through areas in which we would normally expect to see the Ntsevu Pride and Birmingham males.
Interestingly, the Ntsevu pride has given birth to cubs on some rocky outcrops east of Londolozi in an area very close to where the Avoca males regularly reside, on the edge of the Birmingham males’ territory. If the Avoca males discover these cubs, it may spell the worst for them, but it may also draw these younger males into that area in an attempt to mate with the pride lionesses. If the Avoca males shift south, this could result in the Nkuhuma Pride also shifting south in response to the pride males, bringing them square into the middle of Londolozi’s northern parts. It would be incredible to have another large pride (in addition to Ntsevu) regularly viewed on Londolozi, however this would inevitably put pressure on the Tsalala female who is currently exploiting the somewhat “safe” area within the Sand and Manyelethi Rivers, north of the Londolozi camps.
Hypothesise as we do, but only time will tell. With two male lions in their prime potentially facing up against two ageing but experienced male lions, things could get interesting. For now we listen to the persistent roars from all sides that reverberate across the landscape
Londolozi guys are trying rly hard to force this narrative that N. Avocas are trying to overthrone Bboys... Its just funny at this point.. But yea, this is all buisness for them, so they need to say something exciting..
(09-12-2020, 09:44 PM)titose Wrote: Are The Northern Avoca Male Lions Looking For More Territory?
James Tyrrell recently summarised the general lion dynamics on Londolozi. The male lion dynamics of the Sabi Sands have drawn special attention over the years, particularly during the reign of the mighty Mapogo coalition and thereafter the Majingilane males. Witnessing male lions fight over territory is exhilarating to say the least. At present, the two remaining Birmingham males reign over much of Londolozi and into Mala Mala to our east. They are currently siring 14 cubs in the Ntsevu pride and the single Tsalala female’s youngster in addition to those that they fathered as they ventured south away from their natal area. However, it would appear that we are nearing a shift in dynamics…
More and more often we are hearing the roars from the Avoca males to our north. From what we are told, there are three brothers, of which two spend most of their time together and the third apart. On several occasions now, two Avoca males have ventured right through northern Londolozi and even crossed south over the Sand River. This is right into the Birmingham males’ territory.
When together, we have heard them roaring from within the Birmingham males’ territory. This is a direct threat to the current dominant males reign over the area. The trouble is, the Birmingham males have established such a large territory that there are opportunities for other males to sneak in unnoticed. The Birmingham males were born in 2010 and were once a coalition of five. Now down to two and soon to be eleven years old, they are nearing the end of their tenure.
From a male lion’s perspective, the more territory that you can take over, the greater the chance of finding receptive lionesses with which you can mate and spread your genes. This is a natural progression as males grow in size and confidence. It would seem that the two Avoca males are pushing further and further into the heart of Londolozi now as they reach their prime. Just a few days ago, we found one alone on the southern bank of the Sand River. He called several times, before walking right across the breadth of the reserve in response to two lions calling in the far north east of the area. We eventually left him walking and scent marking as he headed straight towards Mala Mala to the east. This is a bold move, as he traversed right through areas in which we would normally expect to see the Ntsevu Pride and Birmingham males.
Interestingly, the Ntsevu pride has given birth to cubs on some rocky outcrops east of Londolozi in an area very close to where the Avoca males regularly reside, on the edge of the Birmingham males’ territory. If the Avoca males discover these cubs, it may spell the worst for them, but it may also draw these younger males into that area in an attempt to mate with the pride lionesses. If the Avoca males shift south, this could result in the Nkuhuma Pride also shifting south in response to the pride males, bringing them square into the middle of Londolozi’s northern parts. It would be incredible to have another large pride (in addition to Ntsevu) regularly viewed on Londolozi, however this would inevitably put pressure on the Tsalala female who is currently exploiting the somewhat “safe” area within the Sand and Manyelethi Rivers, north of the Londolozi camps.
Hypothesise as we do, but only time will tell. With two male lions in their prime potentially facing up against two ageing but experienced male lions, things could get interesting. For now we listen to the persistent roars from all sides that reverberate across the landscape
Londolozi guys are trying rly hard to force this narrative that N. Avocas are trying to overthrone Bboys... Its just funny at this point.. But yea, this is all buisness for them, so they need to say something exciting..
I wouldn't be so sure on that. Avocas indeed shifted their territorry more south in the past months. Moreover with Kambulas coming into heat again there always is possibility of some sort of conflict between two coalitions. Of course that being said we do not talk about what is happening now, but what may happen in the following weeks or months.
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(09-12-2020, 09:44 PM)titose Wrote: Are The Northern Avoca Male Lions Looking For More Territory?
James Tyrrell recently summarised the general lion dynamics on Londolozi. The male lion dynamics of the Sabi Sands have drawn special attention over the years, particularly during the reign of the mighty Mapogo coalition and thereafter the Majingilane males. Witnessing male lions fight over territory is exhilarating to say the least. At present, the two remaining Birmingham males reign over much of Londolozi and into Mala Mala to our east. They are currently siring 14 cubs in the Ntsevu pride and the single Tsalala female’s youngster in addition to those that they fathered as they ventured south away from their natal area. However, it would appear that we are nearing a shift in dynamics…
More and more often we are hearing the roars from the Avoca males to our north. From what we are told, there are three brothers, of which two spend most of their time together and the third apart. On several occasions now, two Avoca males have ventured right through northern Londolozi and even crossed south over the Sand River. This is right into the Birmingham males’ territory.
When together, we have heard them roaring from within the Birmingham males’ territory. This is a direct threat to the current dominant males reign over the area. The trouble is, the Birmingham males have established such a large territory that there are opportunities for other males to sneak in unnoticed. The Birmingham males were born in 2010 and were once a coalition of five. Now down to two and soon to be eleven years old, they are nearing the end of their tenure.
From a male lion’s perspective, the more territory that you can take over, the greater the chance of finding receptive lionesses with which you can mate and spread your genes. This is a natural progression as males grow in size and confidence. It would seem that the two Avoca males are pushing further and further into the heart of Londolozi now as they reach their prime. Just a few days ago, we found one alone on the southern bank of the Sand River. He called several times, before walking right across the breadth of the reserve in response to two lions calling in the far north east of the area. We eventually left him walking and scent marking as he headed straight towards Mala Mala to the east. This is a bold move, as he traversed right through areas in which we would normally expect to see the Ntsevu Pride and Birmingham males.
Interestingly, the Ntsevu pride has given birth to cubs on some rocky outcrops east of Londolozi in an area very close to where the Avoca males regularly reside, on the edge of the Birmingham males’ territory. If the Avoca males discover these cubs, it may spell the worst for them, but it may also draw these younger males into that area in an attempt to mate with the pride lionesses. If the Avoca males shift south, this could result in the Nkuhuma Pride also shifting south in response to the pride males, bringing them square into the middle of Londolozi’s northern parts. It would be incredible to have another large pride (in addition to Ntsevu) regularly viewed on Londolozi, however this would inevitably put pressure on the Tsalala female who is currently exploiting the somewhat “safe” area within the Sand and Manyelethi Rivers, north of the Londolozi camps.
Hypothesise as we do, but only time will tell. With two male lions in their prime potentially facing up against two ageing but experienced male lions, things could get interesting. For now we listen to the persistent roars from all sides that reverberate across the landscape
Londolozi guys are trying rly hard to force this narrative that N. Avocas are trying to overthrone Bboys... Its just funny at this point.. But yea, this is all buisness for them, so they need to say something exciting..
Totally agree.
only time will tell,according MM the BBoys already have chased the Nkuhuma and N Avocas.
09-13-2020, 12:42 AM( This post was last modified: 09-13-2020, 12:49 AM by Tr1x24 )
(09-12-2020, 10:41 PM)Potato Wrote: I wouldn't be so sure on that. Avocas indeed shifted their territorry more south in the past months. Moreover with Kambulas coming into heat again there always is possibility of some sort of conflict between two coalitions. Of course that being said we do not talk about what is happening now, but what may happen in the following weeks or months.
Bboys with Kambula pride where also seen in Avocas territory in Cheetah Plains, Nkorho, aswell as in Othawa male territory in Singita, and nobody is saying that they are pressuring them, or anything.. All the time is that propaganda that Avocas are pressuring "ageing" Bboys..
Avocas are mating with younger Nkuhuma lionesses, so atm they dont think about any takeovers lol...
This is just Londolozi propaganda which lasts for half a year now since N. Avocas showed up on their boundary..
Lions territory and boundaries changes day to day, so if Avocas are roaring in Northern Londolozi that doesnt mean automaticly that they want to takeover Bboys lol..
Since that propaganda started half a year ago, theres still not 1 evidence that 2 coalitions came even close to blows, only few days ago there was a rumor that Nhenha chased Avocas, but that too was without any evidence...
Its normal for male lions to roar on their boundary, all males do that, thats not a sign of takeover...
I dont have anything against Londolozi, but if you follow them over the years, they have tendecies to force some narratives and stories..
"Bboys with Kambula pride where also seen in Avocas territory in Cheetah Plains, Nkorho, aswell as in Othawa male territory in Singita, and nobody is saying that they are pressuring them, or anything.. All the time is that propaganda that Avocas are pressuring "ageing" Bboys.."
Birminghams were making only occasional forays to Avocas territorry. Avocas presence in northern Mala Mala is regular. They clearly shifted their territory a bit south.
"Avocas are mating with younger Nkuhuma lionesses, so atm they dont think about any takeovers lol..."
As I said it is not about what is happening now, but what will happen in next weeks and months. Also that they are mating with Nkuchuma lionesses doesn't mean at all that they won't be intrested in Kambula lionesses.
"Lions territory and boundaries changes day to day, so if Avocas are roaring in Northern Londolozi that doesnt mean automaticly that they want to takeover Bboys lol.. "
I am not saying that they are trying to take over Birminghams territory at the moment, but that those two coalitions might have some clash in future.
"Since that propaganda started half a year ago, theres still not 1 evidence that 2 coalitions came even close to blows,"
That it did not come to blows so far doesn't mean it won't in the future.
"Its normal for male lions to roar on their boundary, all males do that, thats not a sign of takeover... "
Yes, agree 100%.
"I dont have anything against Londolozi, but if you follow them over the years, they have tendecies to force some narratives and stories.."
Well... in the past years male lions dynamic on their property was hot and very often coalitions were clashing with each others. They might be just to such aggressive developments in lion dynamic.
09-13-2020, 02:01 AM( This post was last modified: 09-13-2020, 02:05 AM by Tr1x24 )
(09-13-2020, 01:25 AM)Potato Wrote: Birminghams were making only occasional forays to Avocas territorry. Avocas presence in northern Mala Mala is regular. They clearly shifted their territory a bit south.
So? That was an vacant area, not BBoys territory..
And theres always a potential clash between neigbouring coalitions, so i dont understand all that forced drama..
What are they expecting them to do? Not roar or patrol their boundary?? This is all nonsense..
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09-13-2020, 02:39 PM( This post was last modified: 09-13-2020, 03:15 PM by Tr1x24 )
(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
*This image is copyright of its original author
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*This image is copyright of its original author
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Great pics. Thanks, Tr1x24. These boys look great and they're spitting images of their fathers, the Thanda Impi males.
(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, since @Hairy tummy mentioned it, did anyone ever positively ID those youngsters that HB chased off? A lot of comments about them when it happened, one photo, and poof, they disappeared.
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09-17-2020, 01:38 AM( This post was last modified: 09-17-2020, 01:39 AM by T I N O )
(09-17-2020, 01:32 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(09-13-2020, 02:39 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, since @Hairy tummy mentioned it, did anyone ever positively ID those youngsters that HB chased off? A lot of comments about them when it happened, one photo, and poof, they disappeared.
The young males who HB chased off a couple of weeks ago their ID'S are still being debating by Dulini rangers,they mentioned on an earlier post that in this week or probably the next,them will released a ID of them.
At the moment some guys claiming that they are the 3 of the 5 Nharu males,However nobody knows it at 100%
(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, since @Hairy tummy mentioned it, did anyone ever positively ID those youngsters that HB chased off? A lot of comments about them when it happened, one photo, and poof, they disappeared.
The young males who HB chased off a couple of weeks ago their ID'S are still being debating by Dulini rangers,they mentioned on an earlier post that in this week or probably the next,them will released a ID of them.
At the moment some guys claiming that they are the 3 of the 5 Nharu males,However nobody knows it at 100%
They were confirmed, by us. The rangers don't give enough attention to know the lion dynamics inside out as we do, the official ID's would be great but I wouldn't view them as any more valid.
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(09-13-2020, 01:48 PM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Did anybody see wildearth earlier. There was 4 young males on n avoca territory. Maybe the young males HB chased?
No,she said at the beginning that those are 3 Mbiri +Nharu..
Tumbela /Nharu males are 3 and they are southwest.. She said that these 4 came from north, from Buffelshoek..
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, since @Hairy tummy mentioned it, did anyone ever positively ID those youngsters that HB chased off? A lot of comments about them when it happened, one photo, and poof, they disappeared.
The young males who HB chased off a couple of weeks ago their ID'S are still being debating by Dulini rangers,they mentioned on an earlier post that in this week or probably the next,them will released a ID of them.
At the moment some guys claiming that they are the 3 of the 5 Nharu males,However nobody knows it at 100%
They were confirmed, by us. The rangers don't give enough attention to know the lion dynamics inside out as we do, the official ID's would be great but I wouldn't view them as any more valid.
Dulini Private Game Reserve commented on his post that on the nexts weeks they will post an ID of the Tumbela boys,So I will wait for them,nothing wrong after all!
Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
