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Big cat and Bear tale
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IVAN SERYODKIN
Biologist and project leader (The siberian tiger project) https://russia.wcs.org/en-us/about-us/staff/projectid/407.aspx “Tigers are stalk and ambush predators. That means they use a surprise attack to catch their prey. A tigers' feet are padded, which helps them silently sneak up on the prey they hunt. " “ Large bears cannot only eat up remains after tigers, but also chase them off their prey or join the fight (Sysoev, 1966, Kucherenko, 1971, Kostoglod, 1976, Seryodkin et al., 2005a). In the snow period some bears purposely track tigers and lynxes to find the remains or take away their prey (Kostoglod, 1976, Seryodkin et al., 2012). “Brown bears can be aggressive towards the predators (other bears, tigers) and people approaching their prey or carrion.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S207815201630027X# (09-10-2019, 06:04 AM)Roberto Wrote: IVAN SERYODKIN I wonder was there something you wanted to point out? I think that there isn´t too much new in it, that tiger is an ambush predator. Then again what comes to tigers and brown bears in Russia, pretty much all about it has been shared here many times including that study you quoted. We try to avoid cycling around certain topics especially if no new information. And even though brown bears and tigers have been a topic in this thread before, this kind of information would be better in Amur tiger thread since about 99,9% interactions between brown bears and tigers happen in Russian far east. If idea would be to start a discussion/debate about brown bears and tigers, there isn´t too much point to recycle old information again. Most people here have seen it all before and there is really nothing to accomplish if no new information. And it is quite difficult to think, that after 100-200 years someone would suddenly find out something extraordinary. New observations naturally are always interesting. Edit: I moved posts from Extinction thread to this thread since this felt more suitable. Extinction thread is after all meant mainly for other kind of content even though in past there has been also bear and tiger discussions.
Thanks Shadow. I never saw this posted in this forum before, so i thought maybe some people or most people had not seen it. So i decided to posted it. Seryodkin is one if the most knowledgeable authorities on bears and tigers in the RFE. But i agree, there is nothing new on the interactions, thats all.
(09-10-2019, 08:50 PM)Roberto Wrote: Thanks Shadow. I never saw this posted in this forum before, so i thought maybe some people or most people had not seen it. So i decided to posted it. Seryodkin is one if the most knowledgeable authorities on bears and tigers in the RFE. But i agree, there is nothing new on the interactions, thats all. Actually it can be, that I quoted that study in bear strength thread once so no wonder if you hadn´t notice it. Of course it time to time happens that same information is posted more than once, it simply can´t be avoided always when so many long threads. What comes to tigers and brown bears, their co-existence and interactions have been discussed a lot. Usually leading to pointless debates. Of course reasonable discussion is possible, but what comes to certain "flammable" topics we are quite careful. Tigers and brown bears, as so many other animals, deserve respect and understanding. 1+1 is pretty simple calculation, interactions between different species usually are far from simple. What comes to brown bears and tigers there are many different points of views which is good to be aware of if having something in mind :) 
If shared before please let me notice but here's something fascinating; camera traps of a large male brown bear and an Amur tigress in Khabarovski Krai during October 2017 at 30 minutes one after the other. This bear was notoriously continuously harassing the tiger who had four cubs and still has two living with her, regularly usurping her kills!
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Source but it's in Russian: https://todaykhv.ru/news/in-areas-of-the-province/8794// (09-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote: If shared before please let me notice but here's something fascinating; camera traps of a large male brown bear and an Amur tigress in Khabarovski Krai during October 2017 at 30 minutes one after the other. This bear was notoriously continuously harassing the tiger who had four cubs and still has two living with her, regularly usurping her kills! These photos are familiar from different threads. That tigress Rachel (there are some other ways to write her name too) was truly harassed by this bear Mantle (Russian names Chlamus or Khlamida). Soon after these photos it left Rachel alone and disappeared for some time. For some reason there was gathered people to hunt Mantle and kill it to help Rachel, but they didn´t manage to find and shoot the bear. Rachel met also male tiger Ochkarik soon after these photos and some think, that she called him to help. Difficult to say what made the bear to disappear at that time, but they said, that he is a smart bear and hunters with guns for sure can be intimidating for an experienced bear. Mantle was seen later and last observations at the area early winter 2018. After that no observations so it most likely spends some time somewhere else, male bears can travel hundreds of kilometers during summer. Rachel moved her place of residence after that incident, but she is ok. She was mating with Ochkarik at the end of January 2019. I asked about Rachel and Mantle from Alexander Batalov and got this much information about it, what happened after these photos. (09-13-2019, 03:45 PM)Shadow Wrote:(09-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote: If shared before please let me notice but here's something fascinating; camera traps of a large male brown bear and an Amur tigress in Khabarovski Krai during October 2017 at 30 minutes one after the other. This bear was notoriously continuously harassing the tiger who had four cubs and still has two living with her, regularly usurping her kills! Thanks for the additional information. This event however once again shows you that neither of these two animals are dominant over one or another. The 'theory' of male tigers targeting sows and cubs and avoiding males seems to be true and the same can be said the other way around. Also, for what reason did they want to shoot Mantle? Isn't this a natural occurrence? (09-13-2019, 03:53 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(09-13-2019, 03:45 PM)Shadow Wrote:(09-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote: If shared before please let me notice but here's something fascinating; camera traps of a large male brown bear and an Amur tigress in Khabarovski Krai during October 2017 at 30 minutes one after the other. This bear was notoriously continuously harassing the tiger who had four cubs and still has two living with her, regularly usurping her kills! I understood, that they were concerned and wanted to help tigress to get rid of the bear because it had been stealing kills from her so long time. They had still licences to hunt bears legally at the time and they have so few tigers there. If that bear would have killed or injured Rachel who knows what would have happened to those two cubs, which she still fed at the time. Anyway it was nice to learn, that they were unable to shoot him and also tigers were ok. Mantle really looks like an enormous bear, even though Rachel has her front leg a bit diagonally, it´s obvious, that shoulder height of Mantle is on different level. 
The brown bear probably disappeared because of the hunters with guns not because of the male tiger. Anyway here is a picture:
 *This image is copyright of its original author www.reddit.com/r/ANormalDayInRussia/comments/4d2xt4/bear_vs_tiger/
Where bear and big cat exist, the former is listed in the section called 'prey'. Bears (including the smaller asian bears like Asiatic black bears and sloth bears), however, are generally given a wide breathe. The reason why there are more accounts of tigers killing Ussuri brown bears compared to vice versa is because the tigers are the ones to select which bear to hunt. Siberian tigers can kill Ussuri brown bears which would be close to their weight (adult females or even shantun male bears - which are old and emaciated) yet a healthy male Ussuri brown bear is immune to tiger predation. In fact, healthy male brown bears usurp tigers of the kills and are in fact the strongest in their territories. They even put their claw marks on areas where tigers mark territories to show their dominance.
(09-27-2019, 09:10 PM)GreenGrolar Wrote: Where bear and big cat exist, the former is listed in the section called 'prey'. Bears (including the smaller asian bears like Asiatic black bears and sloth bears), however, are generally given a wide breathe. The reason why there are more accounts of tigers killing Ussuri brown bears compared to vice versa is because the tigers are the ones to select which bear to hunt. Siberian tigers can kill Ussuri brown bears which would be close to their weight (adult females or even shantun male bears - which are old and emaciated) yet a healthy male Ussuri brown bear is immune to tiger predation. In fact, healthy male brown bears usurp tigers of the kills and are in fact the strongest in their territories. They even put their claw marks on areas where tigers mark territories to show their dominance. Tigers and bears can put marks to same trees. So which one is dominant isn´t so clear. Then again the purpose of this isn´t to compare big cats and bears like you did, but to discuss about top predator behind big cats and bears. It would be good to look what is thread and purpose of it. There is for instance bear and big cat tale thread, which can be used to compare bears and big cats. If someone has something to comment about what @GreenGrolar wrote, better to do it there, I move this posting also there, beause it has nothing to do with topic in this thread. 
I was trying to find good information of interaction of Siberian Tigers and Bears in Winter Ecology of the Amur Tiger, attached is information I found
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
A Population Estimate of Amur Tigers using camera traps (2013)
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
 *This image is copyright of its original author http://domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/19432/ Here is an account of indirect aggression from Ussuri brown bears towards Siberian tigers and other bears. |
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