(10-31-2023, 05:26 AM)Balam Wrote:

(10-31-2023, 03:35 AM)Wlfelipe86 Wrote:

(10-30-2023, 04:39 AM)Matias Wrote:

(10-28-2023, 04:01 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!

we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!

My perspective is science, scientific articles and publications. Forest Galante filmed a leopard in Zanzibar on his program in 2018, and it seems to me that there was no subsequent confirmation, in the island's only national park, measuring less than 5,000 hectares. Years ago it is believed that villagers saw the clouded panther (neofelis nebulosa brachyura) on the island of Taiwan, after 36 years of disappearance. And so, we point out the possibilities. The point is that proof and evidence need confirmation. First, a good photo resulting from research by a qualified professional. Second, a source for genetic examinations (fur, feces...), to establish the origin; as it has been fully proven that the Gabon lion is a faithful representative of the region's lineage (Gabon/Republic of Congo). In other words, it is a lion from Gabon and not a lion in Gabon.

I understand your perspective and wrote because I thought it was worth showing an opinion contrary to this search for "evidence" that time shows, for the most part, to be unconfirmed.

The perspective is to never close the doors until all the windows are closed. But who opens the doors and who closes the windows? They are conservation scholars together with a series of professionals who, after decades of absence, dismiss the real and credible possibilities of its existence. Who's opening the windows? These are articles without any evidence to prove their existence.

Animals that never existed, like the globally known Sasquatch/Ieth, lead "thousands" of people and their organizations to keep the legend alive in people's minds. The same is also done for the "Lazarus" species.

Understand well, I don't take away your right to believe what you want to believe. I just don't give credit to news that has no proof.

If the news is fact. It will draw the attention of experts and credible publications will be published a few years after its discovery. Go to: Nature, Science Advances, MDPI, PHYS, PLOS, PNAS and see if you can find published material that confirms the presence of some missing species.

Be sure to publish what you find, but pay close attention to the source. It wouldn't be good to miss a great conservation opportunity, but don't give credit to those who don't deserve it. In order not to perpetuate narratives that justify the interest of parties that are not legitimate for conservation.

"The definition of extinction is also a philosophical challenge. For example, biologically an animal can be considered extinct, however, the animal is still seen in the activities and thoughts of the local community (the cultural and historical importance of those who lived with/heard stories about it) makes it persist a long time in the future. This is a major challenge in defining extinction because many animals still live in unscientific ways, and science cannot discuss these issues in the academic world."

I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings! 

Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!

I really like your enthusiasm, keep in mind re: Forrest Galante that in the case of the Zanzibar leopard, without physical evidence such as a body, fur, feces, or a flesh that can be used to extract and analyze DNA, it’s challenging to definitively confirm the existence of the species. DNA analysis can provide conclusive proof of a species’ identity by comparing the genetic material with that of known specimens. While video footage like that captured by Forrest Galante can be suggestive and exciting, it’s not considered definitive proof without accompanying physical evidence that can undergo DNA analysis. This is why the scientific community typically requires such evidence before declaring that an extinct species has been rediscovered.

A part of me does hold on to the hope that some remnants of Caspian tigers remain hidden in remote Central Asia, but without solid evidence, they will remain almost cryptic in nature.

(10-31-2023, 03:35 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings! 

Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!

(10-26-2023, 06:36 AM)peter Wrote:

(10-26-2023, 04:57 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote:

(10-25-2023, 04:19 AM)peter Wrote:

(10-24-2023, 04:16 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!

In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!

And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too! 


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.1050191/full

Very informative and interesting article, Felipe. Much appreciated!

Thank you, there was another article about animals believed to be extinct for decades and later found alive that talked about caspian tigers in Turkey and sightings there in Hakkari and Sirnak in 2002, 2003 and 2010! much more recent than the ones mentioned in the article i posted, but i could not find it anymore! 

What really surprised me was the fact that tigers were found in Antalya, southwestern Turkey up to the 80´s!!

A former friend is from eastern Turkey. He visits his family members and friends just about every year and told me wild boar hunters in particular often found prints of big cats about a decade ago. I don't think it's superfluous to add they, on account of their experience, were able to tell the difference between leopards and tigers. They were sure Turkey still had tigers in 2010. Most tigers lived in elevated districts and kept a low profile.  

A new member of Wildfact said there many signs of tigers northeast of the Caspian were found in the recent past. Some years ago, I posted a report in the tiger extinction thread about sightings of Caspian tigers in one of the former Sowjet republics. Same for Afghanistan. The report you posted confirms the information I have. 

It's a fact the info wasn't used. It also didn't result in articles in newspapers and documentaries. A result of a lack of reliable information from authorities and experts? Maybe. But it also is a fact tigers are not wanted in most countries. I'm not only referring to most former Sowjet republics in central parts of Asia. In central parts of China, persistent rumours about big cats resulted in a visit of a competent man with a degree. He was sure tigers were still present in some districts of central China in 2011. His findings were discussed in the tiger extinction thread, but not in China. The singer in the band I played in is from Java. She showed me recent reports about tigers in Java. 

I'm not saying all reports about sighting are reliable. They aren't. Nearly all biologists are sure Panthera tigris virgata is gone. Same for P.t. amoyensis and P.t. sondaica. In most regions that still have a few wild tigers, they are threatened. Tigers are poached in Sumatra, Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and Nepal. Same, most unfortunately, for India and Russia. The tide seems to have turned once again. Maybe the real question is if tigers are wanted in regions that still have them.

Tigers hunt large animals. Large animals, apart from those living on alluvial flood plains, need a lot of room, meaning tigers also need a lot of room. In today's world, this is a problem. The Russian Far East is an exception in this respect. As a result of conservation, the number of Amur tigers increased. They're now seen in districts where they were hunted to extinction half a century ago. More tigers mean more confrontations, as humans are just about everywhere. In times of need, like in a severe winter or during a disease that affects wild herbivores, close proximity can result in problems. Most of the time, desperate tigers hunt domestic animals. These attacks result in fear and less support for conservation. In densely populated regions, chances are humans will be attacked sooner or later. 

In the long run, tigers only stand a chance in remote regions with tough living conditions and few humans. Regions that qualify are few and far between and they, on top of that, really need to be empty (referring to humans). As the human population continues to grow, this development can have one outcome only. Meaning a decision has to be taken. The vital question is if we are prepared to offer room to our neighbours.

(10-31-2023, 06:56 AM)Matias Wrote:

(10-31-2023, 03:35 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings! 

Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!

The situations that lead people to claim to have seen an animal, its footprints, feces, its actions, its predations... are much deeper than you can imagine.

After Forest Galante published his video on the Animal Planet program, this study was published HERE.

I understand that you would like to provide first-hand information, but there are natural checks and balances in situations that require a lot of caution and little passion.

A few years after the disappearance of the last western black rhinos (Diceros bicornis longipes) in Cameroon, a team went there to map and, unbelievably, clues were forged by the hired trackers themselves, to perpetuate the idea that some individuals were still in this landscape. Each iconic large animal that has disappeared has a complex network of stories that always bring them back.

(Yesterday, 02:31 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: The Caspian tiger killed in the Kopet Dag region of Turmenistan near the Sumbar river is 70 years old!!! He is at a museum in Turkmenistan to this day!!! He is one of the largest caspian tigers known along with one killed in Azerbaijan in 1899!!!


https://central-asia.news/turkmeniya/obshhestvo-turkmeniya/chychely-tyranskogo-tigra-v-gosydarstvennom-myzee-tyrkmenistana-ispolniaetsia-70-let


Below a colored photograph of the Caspian tiger killed in Çukurca Turkey in 1970!!!

(Yesterday, 05:06 AM)peter Wrote:

(Yesterday, 02:31 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: The Caspian tiger killed in the Kopet Dag region of Turmenistan near the Sumbar river is 70 years old!!! He is at a museum in Turkmenistan to this day!!! He is one of the largest caspian tigers known along with one killed in Azerbaijan in 1899!!!


https://central-asia.news/turkmeniya/obshhestvo-turkmeniya/chychely-tyranskogo-tigra-v-gosydarstvennom-myzee-tyrkmenistana-ispolniaetsia-70-let


Below a colored photograph of the Caspian tiger killed in Çukurca Turkey in 1970!!!

Very interesting article, Felipe. It confirms the information in 'Säugetiere der Sowjetunion' of Heptner and Sludskij, German translation (1980). They wrote Turan tigers, although somewhat smaller than the Amur tiger, could reach a large size at times. Many thanks!

(6 hours ago)lfelipe86 Wrote:

(Yesterday, 05:06 AM)peter Wrote:

(Yesterday, 02:31 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: The Caspian tiger killed in the Kopet Dag region of Turmenistan near the Sumbar river is 70 years old!!! He is at a museum in Turkmenistan to this day!!! He is one of the largest caspian tigers known along with one killed in Azerbaijan in 1899!!!


https://central-asia.news/turkmeniya/obshhestvo-turkmeniya/chychely-tyranskogo-tigra-v-gosydarstvennom-myzee-tyrkmenistana-ispolniaetsia-70-let


Below a colored photograph of the Caspian tiger killed in Çukurca Turkey in 1970!!!

Very interesting article, Felipe. It confirms the information in 'Säugetiere der Sowjetunion' of Heptner and Sludskij, German translation (1980). They wrote Turan tigers, although somewhat smaller than the Amur tiger, could reach a large size at times. Many thanks!

Thanks! It is also interesting that the article mentions a 1989 sighting at lake balkhash!!! I´ve read about a mid 2000´s sighting by a russian fisherman that saw a tigress with cubs in the same area! It appears that lake balkhash along with Golestan and Gilan regions, East Turkey, northern afghanistan and Romit region in Tadjikstan are possible places of caspian tiger survival!! The pathern of sightings in those regions are very consistent! The same thing that happened with the javan tiger and they foun hair and DNA! It makes the survival of caspian tigers very possible!

(4 hours ago)peter Wrote:

(6 hours ago)lfelipe86 Wrote:

(Yesterday, 05:06 AM)peter Wrote:

(Yesterday, 02:31 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: The Caspian tiger killed in the Kopet Dag region of Turmenistan near the Sumbar river is 70 years old!!! He is at a museum in Turkmenistan to this day!!! He is one of the largest caspian tigers known along with one killed in Azerbaijan in 1899!!!


https://central-asia.news/turkmeniya/obshhestvo-turkmeniya/chychely-tyranskogo-tigra-v-gosydarstvennom-myzee-tyrkmenistana-ispolniaetsia-70-let


Below a colored photograph of the Caspian tiger killed in Çukurca Turkey in 1970!!!

Very interesting article, Felipe. It confirms the information in 'Säugetiere der Sowjetunion' of Heptner and Sludskij, German translation (1980). They wrote Turan tigers, although somewhat smaller than the Amur tiger, could reach a large size at times. Many thanks!

Thanks! It is also interesting that the article mentions a 1989 sighting at lake balkhash!!! I´ve read about a mid 2000´s sighting by a russian fisherman that saw a tigress with cubs in the same area! It appears that lake balkhash along with Golestan and Gilan regions, East Turkey, northern afghanistan and Romit region in Tadjikstan are possible places of caspian tiger survival!! The pathern of sightings in those regions are very consistent! The same thing that happened with the javan tiger and they foun hair and DNA! It makes the survival of caspian tigers very possible!

The more I read (referring to articles) and hear (referring to stories from eastern Turkey), Felipe, the more I think authorities in some regions and countries are not that keen on possible survivors of the unslaught that took place in the period 1950-1980. Today, tigers are protected animals, meaning authorities are more or less obliged to protect them. Protecting an apex predator, however, means the entire ecosystem needs to be protected. This means the region can't be 'developed'. 

Indonesia (referring to both Java and Sumatra) isn't the only region where tigers are not welcome. In 2011, a well-known Chinese tiger biologist visited a region in central China where rumours about the presence of a big cat were quite persistent. His, very interesting, findings were discussed in the tiger extinction thread. After that publication, I expected a follow-up. Most unfortunately, silence once again took over. The district in which evidence of the presence of a large cat was found was located quite close to a large city. Tigers are monitored and studied in northeastern China, but in more developed districts in central parts of China it could (referring to tolerance) be a different story. 

As to the Caspian region. After, say, 1970, there have been quite a few reports about the possible existence of big cats in remote and wild districts. That and persistent rumours about sightings. The problem in that part of central Asia was, and is, the political situation. After the former Sowjetunion imploded, many more or less autonomous regions were faced with a completely new situation. Not seldom, a struggle for power erupted. At times, the result was chaos. Not a situation in which conservation would have been a political priority, one would think. 

Apart from all that, there's the tiger. In spite of it's large size, there's no question it has the uncanny ability to disappear from sight completely. When a population, after decades of hunting and poisoning, has been decimated, if not nearly completely destroyed, some survivors apparently are able to pick up the message and to act in a very adequate way. They become less vocal, move to remote districts and also seem to be able to effectively hide kills from sight. Prints are seldom left, confrontations are avoided and when the heat is turned on they're apparently able to get to the right conclusion and move out of sight once again. In this way, detection can be avoided for a prolonged period of time. In spite of their elusiveness, survivors apparently are able to find each other every now and then and breed.  

Every, solitary, wild cat is elusive, but the tiger is a big animal that needs a large territory, a lot of cover, water and at least 20 large prey animals a year to survive. In a district of plenty where they're not hunted, it's easy to find, and hunt them, but when the tide changes tigers are able to adapt. In the days of Dersu, when they were on their way out in Manchuria and the southern part of the Russian Far East, tigers were seldom seen and difficult to hunt. The stories of Corbett and Anderson suggest man-eaters could be hunted in the days of the British Raj by those who knew about tigers and had the time to go after them, but this is not the complete story. Not seldom, tigers not seldom were able to turn the tables. There's no question most man-eaters died of old age. 

It can't be excluded some people (referring to the situation today) keep silent about the presence of tigers in countries where they were allegedly 'exterminated' in order to avoid unwelcome attention. Even in National Parks and Zapovedniks (referring to the Russian Far East), biologists seem to have become more wary about sharing information over the years. In spite of the protection and the new, tougher, laws, cameras have been destroyed and stolen and well-known tigers suddenly 'disappeared'. My guess is the tiger will always be an 'enemy of the State' for many. And tigers know.