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The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)

Netherlands peter Offline
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#1

Post information about this subspecies in this thread.
 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#2

I not agree in separate the population of Caspian and Amur tiger.
 
At difference that the groups of lions (West-Africa, North Africa, India), we are still in time to join all the data of the Caspian tiger and that of the Amur tiger in a single post.
 
Let’s avoid the HUGE mistake of some webpages like Wikipedia, which still separate the two tiger groups that from an evolutionary point of view (based in DNA and fossils) show that these two tiger groups are a single subspecies named Panthera tigris virgata. In fact, even the name “altaica” should not be used more.
 
However, this is just my humble opinion, but if the other posters decide the separate the two groups, it will be no problem (although incorrect). If that would be the case, I will prepare a post clarifying the issue, showing that although we separate them for conversation purposes, these are in fact, a single group.
 

 
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Australia Richardrli Offline
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#3

I respectfully disagree with Guate. I think to put the Amur and Caspian populations together is just too great of a geographical range spanning too many habitats, even though there might be recent evidence showing these two are the same subspecies the matter is after all not fully resolved. I'm sure there are plenty of worthwhile and interesting information on Caspian tigers that would warrant its own thread here, and the same goes for the Amur tigers. So I support the creation of this thread for Panthera tigris virgata.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#4
( This post was last modified: 04-27-2014, 11:00 AM by GuateGojira )

Of course that I accept and respect your point of view, this is the point of all this. [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
 
If the other posters agree, then this topic will still exist, but like I say before, I will put a little post showing why these two populations, despite its large range and possible clinal variations, are still a single subspecies of tiger. [img]images/smilies/exclamation.gif[/img]
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#5
( This post was last modified: 04-27-2014, 11:06 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

The distribution of the Caspian-Amur tiger was somewhat similar to that of the Southeast African lion.

So Caspian and Amur are respectively the two major clades of the subspecies Panthera tigris virgata, similar to the South African lion and the East African lion.
 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-27-2014, 11:36 AM by GuateGojira )

Exactly, that is my point. Those "differences" pointed out by old hunters and classic naturalist are only intraspecific differences, but by no means are evidence to say that these were a diference subspecies.

The case is still not closed, not because scientists are not agree, but for the contrary, is the popular knowledge that not accept this equality.

The example of the lion populations is a great one. Dubach et al. (2013) using the largest sample of lions ever used and other studies, came to the conclusion that only TWO subspecies of lions can be separated:
1. Panthera leo leo - West and north of Africa, Persia and India (this last can be still conserve its name "persica" just for conservations porpuses).
2. Panthera leo melanochaita - All East Africa and all Southern African regions.

In the case of the tigers, the "old" taxonomical classification of Pocock, Mazák and others is completely UNRELIABLE. Kitchener & Yamaguchi (2010), quoting Kitchener (1999) pointed out very well that this "classification" was based in very few specimens, check this out:

*This image is copyright of its original author


As we can see, the classification of the Caspian tiger is rubbish, as only one specimen was used, and even this "one" is not certain. In this situation, it will be futile to try to separate them (Caspian + Amur). Besides, the intraspecific variations, like pelage, skull differences and size can be easily explained as only clinal variations. This same happen in the Indian subcontinent, with even greater differences between the Sundarbans tigers and the Nepalese tigers, but at the end, they are the same.

The morphological studies of J. H. Mazák (2008) using a large skull database showed that the Caspian tiger overlap with all the mainland tiger groups, showing that this group separated from the main steam still when the other populations were not entirely developed they own characteristics, but they match overall with the Amur tigers. The genetic studies, using specimens from the entire range of the Caucasus region, proved that they are the same, as close or closer than the Indian and the Barbary lion!

So, like GrizzlyClaws say, this was just the tiger subspecies with the largest range recorded in modern times and then it most be classified under the same scientific name, the older one in this case, which will be Panthera tigris virgata.

Now, the topic itself can be used to post information about all the different specimens and information gathered from this population, but with the know fact that this group don't represent a different subspecies and is just the western population of the still living Amur tiger. Interestingly, this is the only point where Kitchener & Yamaguchi (2010) agree with the other scientists.

 
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Canada Wolverine Offline
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#7

Tiger (probably Caspian), Roman empire:


*This image is copyright of its original author
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-17-2018, 09:57 AM by BorneanTiger Edit Reason: More images )

This book has a rare photo of a Caspian tiger's skin in Page 66: https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCS...&q&f=false

In case you didn't know, the tiger from the Berlin Zoo in the 19th century was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm

*This image is copyright of its original author




Collection of Kaveh Farrokh: 

A stuffed Persian tiger that invaded Georgia: http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/the-las...n-georgia/

*This image is copyright of its original author



Central Asian tigers: http://kavehfarrokh.com/iran-and-central...the-1930s/

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Wikimedia Commons: 

Samarqand, Uzbekistan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...drassa.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author


Iranian tiger skin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Babremazandaran.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author


Statues in the area of Mount Akhun in the North Caucasus (in European Russia): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author



Azerbaijani stamps: http://www.azermarka.az/en/1997.php?suba...cat=13&

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author




Roman Syrian mosaic of an elephant attacking a tiger: https://collections.artsmia.org/art/1740...ine-turkey

*This image is copyright of its original author



Also, Heptner and Sludskiy had photos of skins of both Amur (Pages 132134: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up) and Central Asian tigers (Page 142: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up): 

Amur tigers: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Tails of the Central Asian and Amur tigers, Page 134: 

*This image is copyright of its original author



Central Asian tigers: 

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#9

(12-16-2018, 11:42 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: This book has a rare photo of a Caspian tiger's skin in Page 66: https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCS...&q&f=false

In case you didn't know, the tiger from the Berlin Zoo in the 19th century was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm

*This image is copyright of its original author




Collection of Kaveh Farrokh: 

A stuffed Persian tiger that invaded Georgia: http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/the-las...n-georgia/

*This image is copyright of its original author



Central Asian tigers: http://kavehfarrokh.com/iran-and-central...the-1930s/

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Wikimedia Commons: 

Samarqand, Uzbekistan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...drassa.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author


Iranian tiger skin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Babremazandaran.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author


Statues in the area of Mount Akhun in the North Caucasus (in European Russia): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author



Azerbaijani stamps: http://www.azermarka.az/en/1997.php?suba...cat=13&

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author




Roman Syrian mosaic of a Syrian elephant attacking a tiger: https://collections.artsmia.org/art/1740...ine-turkey

*This image is copyright of its original author



Also, Heptner and Sludskiy had photos of skins of both Amur (Pages 132134: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up) and Central Asian tigers (Page 142: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up), here, I'm showing the latter: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

First time I see photographs of Caspian tigers shot by Sovjet soldiers. Excellent find and many thanks!
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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#10
( This post was last modified: 12-24-2018, 08:05 PM by Rishi )

(12-17-2018, 01:55 AM)peter Wrote:
(12-16-2018, 11:42 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: This book has a rare photo of a Caspian tiger's skin in Page 66: https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCScFXloC&lpg=PA66&pg=PA66&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

In case you didn't know, the tiger from the Berlin Zoo in the 19th century was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm

*This image is copyright of its original author




Collection of Kaveh Farrokh: 

A stuffed Persian tiger that invaded Georgia: http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/the-las...n-georgia/

*This image is copyright of its original author



Central Asian tigers: http://kavehfarrokh.com/iran-and-central...the-1930s/

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Wikimedia Commons: 

Samarqand, Uzbekistan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...drassa.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author


Iranian tiger skin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Babremazandaran.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author


Statues in the area of Mount Akhun in the North Caucasus (in European Russia): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author



Azerbaijani stamps: http://www.azermarka.az/en/1997.php?suba...cat=13&

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author




Roman Syrian mosaic of an elephant attacking a tiger: https://collections.artsmia.org/art/1740...ine-turkey

*This image is copyright of its original author



Also, Heptner and Sludskiy had photos of skins of both Amur (Pages 132134: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up) and Central Asian tigers (Page 142: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...2/mode/2up): 

Amur tigers: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Tails of the Central Asian and Amur tigers, Page 134: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Central Asian tigers: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

First time I see photographs of Caspian tigers shot by Sovjet soldiers. Excellent find and many thanks!

I modified the post to give a more accurate URL for the Iranian tiger's skin in the book by Eskandar Firouz, and to give photos of Amur tiger skins that were displayed by Heptner and Sludskiy, and I can see something interesting here. Apparently, Central Asian tigers generally had a darker fur and more compact stripe pattern than their Amur relatives.

Jackpot, this file by the Cat Specialist Group gives more photos, pictures and information about tigers of Iran, including Soraya the Persian tigress in Hagenback Zoo: http://www.catsg.org/fileadmin/fileshari...n_Iran.pdf 

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author



And that's not all. Though eastern Anatolia (the Asian part of Turkey) is treated as probably the westernmost range of the tiger, according to Şekercioğlu et al. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...via%3Dihub), stone traps that were used to capture both leopards and tigers were found in the Taurus Mountains of southern Anatolia, and according to Johnson et al. (https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream...sAllowed=y), one of the last pairs of tigers was recorded as having being killed on Selçuk Plain, but also accepted that unconfirmed sightings still occurred in eastern Turkey, Afghanistan and Central Asia. When I search for more information about tigers in Afghanistan and Central Asia, I come across the work of Jungius et al. (https://web.archive.org/web/201610220651..._study.pdf), who said "It is quite probable that tigers still inhabited these areas till 1970th. Afterwards, during the Soviet intrusion into Afghanistan, tigers were recorded several times along the
Afghan-Russian border from 1982 to 1991 (personal communications, former boarder guards). The latest information from border guards dates to 1998, from the southern part of the Babatag mountain ridge. There is some information that tiger footprints were seen in the Surkhandaria region in 2008 by Uzbek border-guards (personal communication)."

In addition, Marco Massetti photographed an Eastern Anatolian kilim (rug) that features, amongst others, two tigers in Page 608: http://www.museoscienzebergamo.it/web/im...ssetti.pdf
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-22-2018, 11:41 PM by BorneanTiger )

These tigers were no joke: 

A) Iran: 


Early 1940's: http://www.tigers.ca/Foundation%20overview/caspian2.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


1912, this website also has other information, including on the Singaporean tiger: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showthrea...age=3&vc=1 

*This image is copyright of its original author



B) Caucasus: 

Heptner and Sludskiy quoted Konstanin Satunin as saying that there was a huge Trans-Caucasian tiger with long fur and appearing "no smaller than a common Tuzemna horse", from Prishibinsk (present-day Göytəpə in Azerbaijan), Pages 141144: 

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


C) Central Asia: 


Karakalpakstan, currently an autonomous republic in Uzbekistan: http://around-karakalpakstan.blogspot.com/2013/11/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


These Caspian tigers look good enough to be rivals for this Amur tiger from the Primorye region: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/books...ine-t.html

*This image is copyright of its original author



It would moreover be helpful if we could have measurements for museum specimen, unless Vratislav Mazák (https://web.archive.org/web/201203091255...1-0001.pdf) took care of that already? 

Medical College in Baku, Azerbaijan: http://www.tigers.ca/Foundation%20overview/caspian2.htm

*This image is copyright of its original author


Persian tiger in the Georgian National Museum: http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/the-las...n-georgia/, http://museum.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&s...nfo_id=847 

*This image is copyright of its original author



Also, check this out (https://wwf.ru/upload/iblock/d6d/atacoll...ll_eng.pdf), it gives surprising dates as to when people saw Caspian tigers in different parts of their range, long after the date of extinction given by this report (https://www.felineconservation.org/uploa...ersion.pdf), which nevertheless provides an interesting insight as to what people did for the Caspian tiger before 1970.
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United States Lycaon Online
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#12

Looks like caspian tiger didn't go extinct after all.I hope that there will be photographic proof of their continued existence in the near future.
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India Rishi Offline
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(12-24-2018, 11:38 AM)Lycaon Wrote: Looks like caspian tiger didn't go extinct after all...

What do you mean? You know something you want to share?
Everything not saved will be lost. - Nintendo 

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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-24-2018, 11:36 PM by BorneanTiger )

(12-24-2018, 08:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-24-2018, 11:38 AM)Lycaon Wrote: Looks like caspian tiger didn't go extinct after all...

What do you mean? You know something you want to share?

What can be established is that even if people believe that the Caspian tiger is extinct, they can't give an exact date for its extinction. Some might believe by 1960 (https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCS...&q&f=false), I gave a reference for 1970 (https://www.felineconservation.org/uploa...ersion.pdf), but Heptner and Sludskiy (https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...0/mode/2up) believed or accepted the possibility that it was still around in Iran, the Caucasus, Afghanistan, China and Central Asia when they published this book in 1972, Pages 131150: 


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


I remember reading somewhere that people earlier didn't know that the Caspian tiger's range extended as far east as Anatolia (the Asian part of Turkey), and had declared it extinct before evidence of the tiger there was revealed in the 1970s.
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United States Lycaon Online
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#15

(12-24-2018, 08:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(12-24-2018, 11:38 AM)Lycaon Wrote: Looks like caspian tiger didn't go extinct after all...

What do you mean? You know something you want to share?

by the facr that there were sightings well after its declared extinction
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