(07-10-2023, 04:50 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I´ve found this article with several sightings of caspian tigers through the years!!! The ones that called my atention are the ones from Armenia(ararat plains) and Azerbaijan!! The armenian sightings doesn´t have a date but is an article from 1992 and the ones from Azerbaijan are classified as accurate identification and precise locality, so no mistake! it were identified as tigers in the 70´s!! long after they were believed to be extinct in Azerbaijan!


http://www.catsg.org/fileadmin/filesharing/5.Cat_News/5.3._Special_Issues/5.3.9._SI_10/CN_SI_10__Faizolahi_2016_Tiger_in_Iran_SOM_T1-T2___F1.pdf

(07-11-2023, 04:35 PM)zulfu1903 Wrote: Here is the list of confirmed tiger sightings in Azerbaijan in 19th and 20th century. I used Google translate to convert into English, but seems quite understandable.
Order of what's written: 

year - where - how many - by whom - any other info - reference

1832 Lankaran 1 Menetries E. 15 versts from Lankaran Menetries E. 1832.
1837 Talish zone 1 Hohenacker R.F. A fur coat was donated to St. Petersburg Academy. Hohenacker, 1837.
1844 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper, joint hunting of Russian border guards and about 200 local people Konstantinov, 1846.
1845 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper Finding the bodies of a boar and a tiger side by side (they killed each other) Konstantinov, 1846.
1846 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper A woman who killed a tiger with an ax to protect her husband* Константинов, 1846.
1846 Talysh zone 1 Qafqaz newspaper Bear hunt of a tiger waking up from sleep Konstantinov, 1846.
1846 Vang (Vank) village, Karabakh 1 Qafqaz newspaper The tiger hunted by the villagers after hunting the cow Konstantinov, 1846.
1852 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper Meeting of a Russian border guard-doctor with a tiger on the road Bobylev, 1859.
April 1866 Lankaran 2 Radde G. Locals offer 6 tiger pelts, including 2 fresh ones caught near "Mineral water" 12 versts west of town. Radde, 1899.
? Bilasuvar 1 Radde G. Tiger skull (donated to the Caucasus Museum) Radde, 1899.
1884 Lankaran 2 Radde G. Tiger seen in winter Radde, 1899.
1896 Talish zone 2 Dinnick N.Y. Russian Lieut. and depicts 2 tiger pelts caught by local hunters. Dinnik, N. Ya., 1914
1897 Goytepe 2 Satunin K.A. Tiger cub Satunin whose mother was hunted, 1906.
February 1899 Goytepe 1 Satunin K.A. Huge male, 5 cubits (350-366 cm) long. Satunin, 1906
1899 Goytepe 1 Satunin K.A. A footprint in the snow the size of a "large bowl" Satunin, 1906
1899 Mughan desert 1 Satunin K.A. Footprint found Satunin, 1906
1932 Goytepe 2 Vereshagin N. K The last Turanian tigers (male and female) hunted in our country. Vereshakin, 1942.


In recent years I collected various information about this ssp. on my blogpsot. Despite it is in Azeri with the google translation feature of browser I believe anyone can understand if they are interested - https://zulfuferecli.wordpress.com/2021/09/21/x%c9%99z%c9%99r-p%c9%99l%c9%99ngi-itirdiyimiz-n%c9%99h%c9%99ng/

(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies.  Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos.  Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?

(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies.  Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos.  Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?

(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote: According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

(09-19-2023, 06:18 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote: According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

Define irony, you live in a particular area but instead of using the name for you, they use it for your brother of an entire different area (Amur).

So, in theory, "altaica" should be better for the Caspian tiger, while the Amur one should be "amurensis" or something like that.

(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:

(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies.  Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos.  Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?

Very nice paintings indeed. Based on the photographs I saw and the descriptions I read, the tiger could be close to what a wild Caspian tiger might have looked like. Adult males not seldom had a reddfish-brown shaggy coat, quite wide brown-black stripes, longish belly hairs, a kind of mane and a shortish skull with a clear 'stop'. 

Individual variation in this respect, however, was pronounced. I've plenty of photographs showing tigers with long, black and quite narrow stripes. In this respect, Caspian tigers compared to wild Amur tigers today. 

Before they were hunted to extinction, Caspian tigers were seen in very different habitats. The Caspian region has rugged, and quite elevated mountaineous regions, alpine forests and deep canyons with reed beds and river forests, but the northeastern part is quite flat and has extended grassy plains. Artists often depicted Caspian tigers in these plains. That's still without the tigers shot in the region between the Caspian and the Altai Mountains and Mongolia. 

Sizewise, adult male Caspian tigers might have compared to Indochinese male tigers, but sexual dimorphism seemed to have been more pronounced. Same for individual variation. The heaviest wild tigress I know of was 135 kg, but those who saw them in zoos and facilities agree most were smaller. Skulls measurements, although few, seem to confirm their opinion. The largest males were shot in Mazanderan (northern Iran) and, in particular, the southwestern part of the Caspian region. If anything, exceptional males were very long. 

Here's a few pictures to finish the post. The first two drawings are from Arthur Wardle:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mongolia or western China. Artist unknown:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This drawing was posted by 'Kaspi Tiger' on a German forum quite some years ago. He had a lot of good information about wild and captive Caspian tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

(10-18-2023, 06:31 PM)Caggis Wrote:

(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:

(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies.  Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos.  Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?

Very nice paintings indeed. Based on the photographs I saw and the descriptions I read, the tiger could be close to what a wild Caspian tiger might have looked like. Adult males not seldom had a reddfish-brown shaggy coat, quite wide brown-black stripes, longish belly hairs, a kind of mane and a shortish skull with a clear 'stop'. 

Individual variation in this respect, however, was pronounced. I've plenty of photographs showing tigers with long, black and quite narrow stripes. In this respect, Caspian tigers compared to wild Amur tigers today. 

Before they were hunted to extinction, Caspian tigers were seen in very different habitats. The Caspian region has rugged, and quite elevated mountaineous regions, alpine forests and deep canyons with reed beds and river forests, but the northeastern part is quite flat and has extended grassy plains. Artists often depicted Caspian tigers in these plains. That's still without the tigers shot in the region between the Caspian and the Altai Mountains and Mongolia. 

Sizewise, adult male Caspian tigers might have compared to Indochinese male tigers, but sexual dimorphism seemed to have been more pronounced. Same for individual variation. The heaviest wild tigress I know of was 135 kg, but those who saw them in zoos and facilities agree most were smaller. Skulls measurements, although few, seem to confirm their opinion. The largest males were shot in Mazanderan (northern Iran) and, in particular, the southwestern part of the Caspian region. If anything, exceptional males were very long. 

Here's a few pictures to finish the post. The first two drawings are from Arthur Wardle:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mongolia or western China. Artist unknown:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This drawing was posted by 'Kaspi Tiger' on a German forum quite some years ago. He had a lot of good information about wild and captive Caspian tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you for this information! What i also found interesting in the paintings i posted is the setting which seems to show a central asian riparian forest.  Do you think this kind of environment with tall reeds is typical of places such as the Ili delta?
The paintings you posted are by french painter Jean Leon Gerome.  He is known to have traveled to the middle east so the "tiger on the watch" painting could show a scene somewhere in Anatolia perhaps.  He was an orientalist and tended to romanticise his subjects so perhaps absolute accuracy was not his priority.

(10-19-2023, 05:01 AM)peter Wrote:

(10-18-2023, 06:31 PM)Caggis Wrote:

(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:

(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies.  Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos.  Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?

Very nice paintings indeed. Based on the photographs I saw and the descriptions I read, the tiger could be close to what a wild Caspian tiger might have looked like. Adult males not seldom had a reddfish-brown shaggy coat, quite wide brown-black stripes, longish belly hairs, a kind of mane and a shortish skull with a clear 'stop'. 

Individual variation in this respect, however, was pronounced. I've plenty of photographs showing tigers with long, black and quite narrow stripes. In this respect, Caspian tigers compared to wild Amur tigers today. 

Before they were hunted to extinction, Caspian tigers were seen in very different habitats. The Caspian region has rugged, and quite elevated mountaineous regions, alpine forests and deep canyons with reed beds and river forests, but the northeastern part is quite flat and has extended grassy plains. Artists often depicted Caspian tigers in these plains. That's still without the tigers shot in the region between the Caspian and the Altai Mountains and Mongolia. 

Sizewise, adult male Caspian tigers might have compared to Indochinese male tigers, but sexual dimorphism seemed to have been more pronounced. Same for individual variation. The heaviest wild tigress I know of was 135 kg, but those who saw them in zoos and facilities agree most were smaller. Skulls measurements, although few, seem to confirm their opinion. The largest males were shot in Mazanderan (northern Iran) and, in particular, the southwestern part of the Caspian region. If anything, exceptional males were very long. 

Here's a few pictures to finish the post. The first two drawings are from Arthur Wardle:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mongolia or western China. Artist unknown:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This drawing was posted by 'Kaspi Tiger' on a German forum quite some years ago. He had a lot of good information about wild and captive Caspian tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you for this information! What i also found interesting in the paintings i posted is the setting which seems to show a central asian riparian forest.  Do you think this kind of environment with tall reeds is typical of places such as the Ili delta?
The paintings you posted are by french painter Jean Leon Gerome.  He is known to have traveled to the middle east so the "tiger on the watch" painting could show a scene somewhere in Anatolia perhaps.  He was an orientalist and tended to romanticise his subjects so perhaps absolute accuracy was not his priority.

My youngest brother was a great painter. When he started, he was fascinated by big cats. He saw a photograph in a book about Sunda tigers I have and made a painting of a tiger walking in a djati forest. It's an exact copy and then it's something very different. It has a feel that isn't in the photograph. Photographs are interesting, but paintings even more so. The reason is painters often add something others are not aware of. When we visited the Rijksmuseum to see Rembrandt, he often saw something others did not. I never read anything about it. It was uncanny, but not uncommon in painters.     

He often joined me when I visited a facility or zoo. I noticed he had a thing going with lions. Every time we entered a compound, the males immediately rose to their feet, approached, started roaring and rolled over. He was part of the brotherhood, but didn't know.

Most captive lions, tigers, jaguars and leopards don't like humans one bit. Lions tell you right away, but the others are more secretive. All big cats, however, do exceptions. For some reason, they like some people. All trainers I talked to really knew about the animals they worked with, but being knowledgeable wasn't decisive. Of those I interviewed, two had a special relationship with the cats they worked with. In the cage, when talking to me, they never watched their back. The others, on the other hand, were careful. They made it because of their senses and experience. All of them were aware of the preference some of big cats have. It's a very individual treat.  

I never saw a captive Caspian tiger, but those who did told me most were a bit smaller than an average Indian tiger. In the days they were still present in most regions, cubs were much sought after. Not seldom, a tigress robbed of her cubs followed the robbers into the village. Happened in India and Sumatra as well, but Caspian tigresses in particular were known for their dedication and aggression.          

I saw a few documentaries about eastern Turkey, southeast Georgia, northwestern Iran and the plains of the region just east of the Black Sea and Lake Aral. What I saw was very suited for tigers, but even more so for the animals they hunted and wild boars in particular. At the level of averages Caspian tigers were smaller than their relatives in the Russian Far East and India, but in some districts large individuals, as the photographs posted in this thread show, were not uncommon. For some reason, Caspian tigresses were quite small. Skull measurements and reliable records suggest sexual dimorphism was very outspoken in Caspian tigers. In this respect, they compared to Amur tigers. 

Caspian tigers ranged between Georgia and the Altai Mountains, but they most probably reached Mongolia as well. I found this painting ('Mongolian Tiger') on a German Forum. It was posted by a man called 'Kaspi Tiger'. He had a lot of information about captive and wild Caspian tigers:   

*This image is copyright of its original author

Skin of a tiger shot near Lob-Nor (Mongolia):

*This image is copyright of its original author