(04-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: In another frame the jaguar’s genatalia is visible showing that it is a male. The puma is certainly a male just going off of looks

(04-19-2022, 02:16 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: In another frame the jaguar’s genatalia is visible showing that it is a male. The puma is certainly a male just going off of looks

And the age? Do you know if that jaguar or puma are adults? The health status, are they healthy or sick? Details....

(04-19-2022, 02:19 AM)Twico5 Wrote: No not really but since pumas are usually taller than jaguars this puma might be a young male.

(04-19-2022, 02:13 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-19-2022, 02:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: 107kg was 1 of the only 7 male weights we have for this population. The largest jaguar population has a much better prey base than these pumas. Name one wild prey species that pumas have been confirmed preying on in the pampas region.

As @Pckts already showed to you, that card was badly played by you. I use the pumas from Canada and USA, those are big monsters that surpass any puma population in the world, they prey in large elk deers and many large prey, but they still don't weight even close to the big jaguars. So, whatever you are trying to prove, pumas had a limit, and even when they are very powerfull they can't reach the size and strength of the jaguar, not even close.

Sorry, but pumas are not equal to the jaguar, even at the same size, they are not at the same weight, and when they are (Florida vs Belice) the puma had the adventage in prey base. Dwarf jaguars against regular sized pumas, not a fair comparison; biggest pumas are still smaller than the biggest jaguars. At the end, where is the debate? It not even existed.

(04-19-2022, 01:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-18-2022, 09:44 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-17-2022, 03:03 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-17-2022, 01:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 10:30 PM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 09:45 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: huge cattle herds

An Oncafari biologist states that most of jaguars they study at Caiman Ecological Refuge (where the largest jaguars in the world are found, like Joker and Robusto), very rarely prey on cattle. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hare

About this, read here :
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-cougar-predation?pid=141952#pid141952 while European hares definitely make a bulk fo cougar diets in the Patagonia, they are usually hunted by youngsters and females, not adult males.

 As you can see from that post adult males hunt primarily guanacos, rheas, and wild horses.

It is very rare for pumas to hunt wild horses. They are dangerous prey and guanacos/hares are a much more frequent prey item. Also, horse-killing pumas get huge. They’re the ones that get upwards of 100kg

“In 44 of those 147 sites we recorded hunting events. In 40 of these sites we found remains of guanacos and rheas, while in the remaining 4 we found remains of wild horses.“ 
Over the course of 2 years btw. 4 horses (most likely foals), over the course of 2 years, sample size = 1 male puma.

Jaguars in the pantanal also hunt horses btw. Certainly not comparable prey bases still.

Nowhere are pumas upwards of 100kg. You Are talking about an outlier when mentioning 100kg Puma.

I never said avg weight? As i said before pantanal jaguars have a better prey base than any cougar population. Every individual is large and well fed. However, a 90kg puma is not exceptional, there are usually 80-90kg pumas mentioned in every single study ive seen from argentinea and chile as well as nw states like idaho, montana, utah etc that includes weights. A 90kg puma is large yes but in areas where they have little competition and healthy prey bases why should there be any avg or 60 kilogram males?

Never did I say average either, you said "upwards of 100kg." Which is extremely rare for any Cougar. 
90kg is also extremely rare for any Cougar, any cougar between 80-90kg will be in the upper tier. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

You'll notice that only one there even reached 80kgs. 

Also, Pumas in Patagonia have just as large of of a prey base as Pantanal Jaguars. 

Quote:Yes and horse-killing pumas usually tend to be larger. I was talking about Patagonian pumas specifically when I said their predation on wild horses was rare. 

This is also an unfounded claim. Wild horses would be even more difficult than Guanaco, generally speaking the only Cats that could prey on adults would be large ones regardless. 

Quote:Amazonian Jaguars vary in size. Most are large and here is their prey base:

The largest verified amazonian Jaguar was around 70kgs.

Quote:Now of course they don’t have 10 million caiman to prey on and nor do they have huge cattle herds grazing in their territories but they do have tons of reptilian prey. These are animals cougars don’t typically hunt.

Again, they must become sloth hunters for months out of the year and the terrain doesn't allow them to hunt that prey. 

Quote:“Sloths”. Throughout most of the Amazon they’re preying on large reptiles

What exactly are these "large reptiles" you think they are preying on?
And there is no debate, sloths make up a high majority of Amazon Jaguars diet. Sloths also make up a large portion of the Jaguars diet in Costa Rica as well.
Prey abundance drives habitat occupancy by jaguars in Amazonian
floodplain river islands
Rafael M. Rabeloa,b,∗
, Susan Aragónc
, Júlio César Bicca-Marquesd
"Jaguars’ predominant terrestriality does not preclude them from
occurring in Amazonian seasonally flooded forests (herein várzea forests). This is the case at the Mamirauá Sustainable Development
Reserve – a protected area of várzea forests in Central Amazon – where
jaguars reach high densities probably because of high prey abundance
(Ramalho, 2012). The availability of arboreal (e.g., sloths and monkeys;
Rabelo et al., 2017) and water-associated (e.g., caimans and their eggs;
Ramalho, 2012; Torralvo et al., 2017) prey species allows jaguars to 
reside yearlong in flooded forests, including the 4- to 6-month-long
high-water season (Ramalho et al., 2009; Ramalho, 2012)."
"Jaguar probability of site occupancy was positively influenced by
the abundance of both howlers and sloths (Table 1; Fig. 2a and b).
Although both estimates were not significant at HPD95 (i.e., the HPD95
interval included the zero), we found strong evidence that sloth and
howler abundances increase the probability of habitat occupancy by
jaguars [likelihood estimates: p (β1 > 0) = 0.93 and p
(β2 > 0) = 0.94, respectively]. We estimated a similar proportion of
island and continuous forest sites used by jaguars (ψ = 0.75, HPD95:
0.36–1.00, Fig. 2c). Additionally, we found that the abundances of both
sloths and howlers have similar effects on jaguar probability of occurrence "
https://ppbio.inpa.gov.br/sites/default/files/Rabelo_R_M_et_al_2019_artigo.pdf

Quote:Nw Mexico isn’t the only place where they’re the same size. Peru: 

Again we are talking about the Amazon and still Jaguars there will outsize the Puma, but it's not as exaggerated as it is in the Pantanal, Chaco, Cerrado, Los Llanos etc. 

Quote:Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hares

I will 100% guarantee you that Guanaco make up way more prey consumption than hare for any Cougar in Patagonia. 
You need to understand a hare is 1/100th the size of a Guanaco and one Guanaco will substantially contribute far more to a Cougars diet than 20 hare but the hare's quantity will skew the results. The reason Patagonia is the only place on earth where you see numerous Cougars feeding on a single carcass isn't because of Hares, trust me. 
This is also shown in the study with regards to the "prey consumed" table. 

Quote:If they’re large here then it would only be because of the couple thousand guanacos here as opposed to the many reasons why pantanal Jaguars reach enourmous sizes. Millions of yacare caiman, 3000 cattle ranches in the region, 0 competition, everything else is also on the roster as prey vs puma population that has only 1 wild prey animal over 5kg. It’s true that Patagonian pumas are apex predators, but according to what you’ve been saying about Jaguars being dominant over pumas, jags would be dominant in every part of their range as well. But they’re small in many places. Guess what? Jaguars are apex predators in the cerrado as well, yet you decide to remind me that there are 140kg pantanal Jaguars! Why aren’t we comparing Amazon jag and Patagonian puma sizes? Both are apexes right? Why is it that one apex niche population is smaller than another apex niche population? I think it might have to do with the prey base that the pantanal has!

This excuse holds no water.
Guanaco numbers in Patagonia are between 100-200 thousand at least. There are also immense sheep farms which contribute to Cougar prey. And of course because of the density of prey you also have the highest cougar density on earth. And like the Pantanal Jaguars, these cougars have no competition. 
Also, tell me again where Jaguars are small since you said "many places." And what does the Cerrado have to do with anything? You realize jaguars are also massive in the Cerrado, only slightly smaller than Pantanal ones. Lastly, I think I've explained the differences between the Amazon compared to elsewhere pretty well. 

Quote:Several male pumas from this region weighing around 90 kilograms. Don’t most male Jaguars in the pantanal weigh around this much? Even then pantanal Jaguars have a much better prey base. Some of these pumas mainly killed and ate livestock. Jaguars in the pantanal eat everything in their territory and the abundance of livestock as well as their own favored wild prey is much higher. It would be foolish to believe that 100 kilograms is the max weight for male pumas btw. There have been many records from scientific literature of male pumas weighing upwards of 100kg, if you’d like I can post some of them.

There is a difference between Per. Comm and actually weighed first hand. And once again, the average male jaguar in the pantanal is 108 kgs which is significantly heavier than any cougar population and heavier than almost any cougar ever weighed. There is one claimed to have been close to 110kg in Patagonia but not confirmed. 
Just scroll through here  https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-of-wild-cougars
You'll quickly see that verified 100kg Cougars are extremely lacking on top of how rare a 90kg Cougar is. They're much like Leopards, 70-80kg is a good sized male, 90kg is exceptional and 100kg is extremely rare.

What are you talking about? Adult guanaco arent free kills for pumas. And if you think that they are killing adult guanaco for every single meal youre mistaken. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

23% guanaco, 50% cape hare, 5% sheep. 405 scats not a single horse. A very small percentage of pumas may have access to domestic prey, but most of them are clearly hunting wild prey and that too struggling to do so. In torres del paine NP there is almost no cover for these pumas to stalk their prey. If they manage to somehow catch a large guanaco they would then have to overpower it which doesnt always happen: https://youtu.be/eIt0ub7PhWY
Idk if you saw the new netflix documentary but in the patagonia episode theres a clip of a female puma failing to overpower a large guanaco after grabbing its neck > falling down > getting back up and trying again 3 times. How often do you really think a puma is going to successfully kill and eat an adult guanaco? Once or twice a week at most. They are obviously capable of doing so including young and female pumas but because of all the factors that make hunting so difficult in patagonia we know that this doesnt happen often. The favored prey of male pumas are most definitely large adult guanacos. Given how hard it is to stalk in an area with no cover, outrun then overpower an animal 2-3 times your size, and repeat until you get large, ofc as a population they arent exceptionally sized like pantanal jags are to other populations. 

You said the largest amazonian jag weighed 70kg. First of all im 100% sure this is a contradiction to everything youve said about these jags in CF. Secondly, in most parts of the brazillian amazon adult male jags weigh 70kg on avg because not every region floods. You’re thinking of the japura river jags which live in forests that get seasonal floods. 

Patagonia cannot be compared to cerrado obviously. Cerrado is closer to pantanal in terms of wild prey and domestic prey abundance. It is home to several terrestrial mammal species above 50kg while patagonia only has one. 

Those weights i posted were from pampas, not patagonia. I never brought up patagonian pumas actually. Here are some extra weights anyways: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:What are you talking about? Adult guanaco arent free kills for pumas. And if you think that they are killing adult guanaco for every single meal youre mistaken. 

Quote:23% guanaco, 50% cape hare, 5% sheep. 405 scats not a single horse. A very small percentage of pumas may have access to domestic prey, but most of them are clearly hunting wild prey and that too struggling to do so. In torres del paine NP there is almost no cover for these pumas to stalk their prey. If they manage to somehow catch a large guanaco they would then have to overpower it which doesnt always happen: https://youtu.be/eIt0ub7PhWY

Quote:Idk if you saw the new netflix documentary but in the patagonia episode theres a clip of a female puma failing to overpower a large guanaco after grabbing its neck > falling down > getting back up and trying again 3 times. How often do you really think a puma is going to successfully kill and eat an adult guanaco? Once or twice a week at most. They are obviously capable of doing so including young and female pumas but because of all the factors that make hunting so difficult in patagonia we know that this doesnt happen often. The favored prey of male pumas are most definitely large adult guanacos. Given how hard it is to stalk in an area with no cover, outrun then overpower an animal 2-3 times your size, and repeat until you get large, ofc as a population they arent exceptionally sized like pantanal jags are to other populations. 

Quote:You said the largest amazonian jag weighed 70kg. First of all im 100% sure this is a contradiction to everything youve said about these jags in CF. Secondly, in most parts of the brazillian amazon adult male jags weigh 70kg on avg because not every region floods. You’re thinking of the japura river jags which live in forests that get seasonal floods. 

Quote:Patagonia cannot be compared to cerrado obviously. Cerrado is closer to pantanal in terms of wild prey and domestic prey abundance. It is home to several terrestrial mammal species above 50kg while patagonia only has one. 

Quote:My point was that they had the ability to take advantage of large reptile populations while pumas cant. 

Quote:Mean prey size for jags and pumas are the same in xeric areas, and similar in forests but only in floodplains is the jag’s mpw double that of the puma.

Quote:107kg was 1 of the only 7 male weights we have for this population. The largest jaguar population has a much better prey base than these pumas. Name one wild prey species that pumas have been confirmed preying on in the pampas region.

Quote:Fun fact pumas vary in size! 

(04-19-2022, 02:55 AM)Twico5 Wrote: The US and canada? Hey those are pretty large countries maybe specify where! Nowhere in the US or canada do pumas have a prey base as large as pantanal jags AND no competition. 

Florida panthers are eating raccoons and whitetail deer. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Belizean jaguars are dwarfs? What makes them dwarfs? What youre not understanding here is that pantanal jaguars have abnormally large weights.

Read this screenshot please. This is mean mass of jaguar prey. Belize is the same as mexico (5.4kg and 5.6kg) which are both similar to peru (10.7kg). These are the same as mean weights of puma prey in florida and california. Now look at the brazil samples. 34.3kg without domestic prey and 113kg with domestic prey. So now tell me do you think its right that we call these jaguars dwarfs? For puma populations in north america that have really large males, their mean prey weight is the same as these floodplain samples without the domestic stock. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(04-19-2022, 02:16 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: In another frame the jaguar’s genatalia is visible showing that it is a male. The puma is certainly a male just going off of looks

And the age? Do you know if that jaguar or puma are adults? The health status, are they healthy or sick? Details....

(04-19-2022, 03:18 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-19-2022, 02:55 AM)Twico5 Wrote: The US and canada? Hey those are pretty large countries maybe specify where! Nowhere in the US or canada do pumas have a prey base as large as pantanal jags AND no competition. 

Florida panthers are eating raccoons and whitetail deer. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Belizean jaguars are dwarfs? What makes them dwarfs? What youre not understanding here is that pantanal jaguars have abnormally large weights.

Read this screenshot please. This is mean mass of jaguar prey. Belize is the same as mexico (5.4kg and 5.6kg) which are both similar to peru (10.7kg). These are the same as mean weights of puma prey in florida and california. Now look at the brazil samples. 34.3kg without domestic prey and 113kg with domestic prey. So now tell me do you think its right that we call these jaguars dwarfs? For puma populations in north america that have really large males, their mean prey weight is the same as these floodplain samples without the domestic stock. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I have figures from Idaho and Washington and I remember some one from Yellowstone, plus those described by Sunquist & Sunqsuit (2002), were they hunt elk and they don't reach the size of the largest jaguars.

White tail deer are bigger than the biggest prey in Belize, so again, Florida panther do have better prey base than jaguars in Belize. 

You ask why the are dwarfs? Really? If an animal has only the 50% of the weight of they other relatives they are dwarfs. And Pantanal jaguars do not have abnormal large weights, that is ridiculous. In this point @Pckts has more information than me. 

And even comparing the diets between these two animals, still you can't explain why pumas with high prey base are not near the size of the jaguars. It mention "Mexico" but, what part of Mexico? That is a big country too. The hole point here is that you are trying to prove something that do not exist. Pumas are great, but they are not as massive a jaguars, they are another league. Maybe you can compare pumas with leopards, that is fair, but jaguars are just too massive. Your own statements says that they have the same average prey weight, pumas and jaguars, then why pumas can't reach the size of jaguars? Simple, because they can't, they have a completelly different body plan even when both are cats, simple. 

Ah, and by the way, did you read the image that you posted about the prey of Belize jaguars? Did you see that half of the percetaje relays is animals of no more than a couple of kg (armadillo and paca) and that only until 2002 we can finally see pecari like an important prey suplement (only 23.3%)? Also, average weight of prey is not enoght, you should also include frecuency of kills too, how often they hunt and the amount of prey they can get, as a large deer every 4 days provide more meat than one armadillo every day. These are the details that you need to see before to compare.

Check the prey base of four populations of pumas (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002):

*This image is copyright of its original author

Certainly white tailed deer and wild boar are bigger than the small preys in Belize.

(04-19-2022, 01:27 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-17-2022, 02:54 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Not even close. Male jag and male cougar from the same region:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
This photo was posted before but the person who posted it i believe claimed the jaguar was a female. Except in another frame you can see the its genatalia. Big male jaguar and male cougar (definitely not close to every other male cougar ive seen from this region). 

The jag in the first image i posted is a big male, an above avg sized individual

If after seeing this image you still believe that jaguars are of the same size (body mass) than jaguars then you are blind.

Check the massive frame of the jaguar, pumas may be as tall and long but are much more slender, not even close to the might of the Panthera cat.

(04-19-2022, 03:50 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Yes but belizean jaguars are only half the size of pantanal jaguars, and not half the size of amazonian or cerrado jags. They are not dwarfs its just that pantanal jags have a much better prey base.

So what youre saying is that jaguars get bigger (or heavier) with less prey right? Have a look at this ss from this one study conducted in peru: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Rodents made up 58% of puma diets and reptiles made up 33% of jaguar diets followed by other large mammals and large rodents. Pumas were definitely eating smaller prey here. And now for weights of pumas and jags in this area: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
“All adults were in good condition. From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area, the average puma and jaguar would each weight about 34kg.” 1 female puma weighed 29kg and 1 female jag weighed 31kg. As i showed you the pumas were eating smaller animals. I thought it would be fair if we compared “dwarf jaguars” to dwarf pumas. 

You claimed that jaguars are on a different tier or level. I strongly disagree. In captivity they weigh the same. In places where both cats have similar mean prey weights, they will also weigh around the same. I dont think theres a need to continue this because as i said from the very start i believe it is unfair for us to compare pantanal jags to any population of pumas and as long as you keep on bringing them up i will continue to say this. Pumas can be just as long and just as tall so if a population of jags and pumas are eating the same they WILL have similar body masses wether the jaguar wins in a fight or not.

(04-19-2022, 04:12 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-19-2022, 03:50 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Yes but belizean jaguars are only half the size of pantanal jaguars, and not half the size of amazonian or cerrado jags. They are not dwarfs its just that pantanal jags have a much better prey base.

So what youre saying is that jaguars get bigger (or heavier) with less prey right? Have a look at this ss from this one study conducted in peru: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Rodents made up 58% of puma diets and reptiles made up 33% of jaguar diets followed by other large mammals and large rodents. Pumas were definitely eating smaller prey here. And now for weights of pumas and jags in this area: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
“All adults were in good condition. From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area, the average puma and jaguar would each weight about 34kg.” 1 female puma weighed 29kg and 1 female jag weighed 31kg. As i showed you the pumas were eating smaller animals. I thought it would be fair if we compared “dwarf jaguars” to dwarf pumas. 

You claimed that jaguars are on a different tier or level. I strongly disagree. In captivity they weigh the same. In places where both cats have similar mean prey weights, they will also weigh around the same. I dont think theres a need to continue this because as i said from the very start i believe it is unfair for us to compare pantanal jags to any population of pumas and as long as you keep on bringing them up i will continue to say this. Pumas can be just as long and just as tall so if a population of jags and pumas are eating the same they WILL have similar body masses wether the jaguar wins in a fight or not.

So now you are going to base your entire statements in TWO jaguar weights from Peru?

And yes, jaguars from Belize are called dwarfs by several people, and not only Pantanal are bigger, also Venezuela jaguars are bigger, even Amazon jaguars are bigger. 

And captive animals are irrelevant, they depend of how are rised by humans, in that case even a leopard can be bigger than the biggest jaguar (been incredible fat of course), so I don't see the point on this.

As @Pckts says, I can see from a mille that you are biased in favor of pumas, and trying to discard the Pantanal population shows that. Well, let's check the jaguars from Venezuela, equally larger, no excuses from your part this time. And none of what you showed here proved that pumas weighed the same as jaguars, for the contrary, we showed here that you will need an exceptionaly small jaguar population to compare it with a similar sized population of pumas (with better prey base) to reach them at the same size.

Even when they have the same average prey base, you completelly ignored with I told you, you also need to know the frecuency of hunting, a puma killing a large deer every 4 days will eat more than a jaguar eating an armadillo per day.

Again, your same images showed that even when the puma can be as long and tall as a jaguar, there are not even near to the same body mass, robustness and skull size. Jaguars are another tier, that is for sure and even with similar prey base, jaguar always are bigger, there is no discussion here. No expert is going to tell you something else.

(04-19-2022, 01:16 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 12:56 PM)Hello Wrote: I think everyone in general including me knew that height of 120 cm from google and almost every site, reality is that 120 cm is over curves, rather than standing height. The tallest lion, standing height up to shoulders is at 114 cm, while an average lion is a slightly above a meter tall at shoulders, while standing. I believe there are also lion reaching 120 cm, but exceptions like Angus MacAskill (largest non pathological human?) or someone with gigantism (hormonal issue)).

Actually no, 120 cm (or now 130 cm) for Smilodon populator is stainding height.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The figure that is incorrect is the often quoted height for the lion. No wild lion, ever, had a height like that. The maximum is 114 cm or probably a little less in the real maximum standing height.

Exceptional captive animals are exceptions and we can ignore them.