(02-13-2019, 09:04 AM)Sanju Wrote:

(02-09-2019, 10:38 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Only fear is that the cats will clash

What???

Quote:@Pantherinae

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imo tigers and lions are going to fight and go after eachothers cubs intensely.

I think you are very interested in Lion-Tiger fight. I see... Don't try to apply the same ideology of captive fights in wild. Also Big cats are not poriferans, they are vertebrates and mammals in specific with typical mammalian nervous system. I said this coz I think you are seeing all animals except Humans like poriferans which don't have nervous system at all.

We can discuss here--> Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia during late Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
Read the thread from the first though. :)

(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist... 

(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: and with limited space they would be a problem for each other. 

(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: I’m not interested in the "VS" debate what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist... 
So clam down, and with limited space they would be a problem for each other. 
And where did I say anything that could be about captive fights? 
I asked if the lions would be introduced, and stated my fear and concern, but I would also be happy to see them getting a new home. 


So I suggest, next time reply if you have an answer to the question in mind, or at least make sure you have read and understood what you are replying too....

(02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: To address your issue, i definitely agree that attrition will be the deciding factor in the long run. If the dominant male tiger can pose enough threat for the pride-females to not feel safe raising cubs in a place, is the only scenario that come to my mind where the lions will keep away.

(02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: Although i have serious doubts that tigress with cubs will go into any kind of interaction with a whole pride (of 4-5 lionesses, otherwise the age of her cubs would come into play). If experienced coalition males choose to expand their borders i doubt a male tiger can confront them alone

(02-13-2019, 02:58 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist... 

This is not a break through question and neither new and unknown and among all it is not rocket science "Project", every body knows this including experts and biologists (not Gujarat people or experts though, I think I don't need tell the reason why...). Supreme Court took decision by taking "all" into consideration by experts years back. 

If you are further interested why the decision is taken by Justice of Supreme Court:
Read the 2013 SC Judgement paper, addressing every issue and the reason.

http://www.conservationindia.org/wp-content/files_mf/Lion-judgment-SC-Apr-2013.pdf

(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: and with limited space they would be a problem for each other. 

Nothing like Kuno is full of Tigers, They are sporadic with number 6 to 8 and most of them are using it as a corridor instead of permanent residence for now and ranthambore is 120 km away.

Future situation after some decades if relocation happened:

Even if their number increase in future, and after relocation, after some decades, if lions number increase, it's not that easy for lions to get to Ranthambore.

Even if they got upto there, prey populations dynamics will adjust accordingly, as after sometime Tiger, Leopard and other carnivore population will slightly decrease and Lion population will increase until the dynamics reaches equilibrium based on the prey density and availability as another carnivore is added which is absent about for some century or so. Prey numbers if limited, carnivore population adjust to accommodate all and Finally reaches equilibrium due to Inter-specific competition.

Nothing like limited prey and limited space. if they are limited then populations will be limited too but nothing earth shattering happens. In pre history, before human dominance, forests and prey are abundant, hence predator numbers are abundant, now they both of them limited hence, Lion and Tiger numbers will be limited in kuno.

The reason they fight in captivity "if they kept in same place" is due to mental stress coz they are bounded and forced to live together and in some cases may be starved to attack each other etc..

In the wild, Tiger can escape when outnumbered by lion and avoids encounter.

(02-13-2019, 03:31 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: Although i have serious doubts that tigress with cubs will go into any kind of interaction with a whole pride (of 4-5 lionesses, otherwise the age of her cubs would come into play). If experienced coalition males choose to expand their borders i doubt a male tiger can confront them alone

are you saying there are territories b/w lions and tigers or tiger-leopard or what ever and they invade each other?

(02-13-2019, 04:47 PM)Rishi Wrote: Unlike with leopards or wolves with whom some degree of coexistance happens (still increasing tiger numbers in the reserves are pushing out leopards to the fringes), they share the same prey niche.

Space & resources being limited, just like Amur tigers push out wolves or Bengals do dholes from a region, these two are highly likely to see interspecies tension... maybe once numbers rise.

(02-13-2019, 04:23 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: They will fight to outcompete the other animal

100 % true and agree.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: wildlife biologist does not have any idea how they will react to each other as there are basically no information about them interacting in the wild. 

Then who does? No one had, coz in recent times after science development, lions and tigers never occurred in the same place to record and study their interaction.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: A lion will kill a hyena no matter what, and it doesn't matter about how much food there is or how much space there is.

Exactly, the reason for it is not lion is hungry or holds grudge or irritated to a hyena, it is because what you said previously i.e.., "They will fight to outcompete the other animal", Predators continuously predate on other predators when they spot to reduce inter-specific competition pressure on limited prey base and natural resources like water.

Here in this case, hyena is inferior predator when compared to Lion on individual basis, hence escapes if it is a cub, it'll die if not hidden in den.
Same in case of Lion-Tiger too... If a tiger spots lion cub unprotected while lions go on a hunt, it'll die and should die. Death is a natural measure to make animal population in control and ecosystem in balance.

But nothing like you expected if an adult male tiger sees a Lion pride, it goes on suicidal battle. first thing, the male/female tiger does is avoiding confrontation by retreating from the path of lions. Similarly, if a lioness catches scent or sight/sound of a male tiger, it avoids encounter and runs away out of his sight. This is what happens when similar sized predators coexist in the same area. Nothing more... If an old tiger or sick one can't escape a lion pride due to age. It'll be killed and nothing more happens like b/w lion-leopard/lion-cheetah/tiger-leopard like everywhere else.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don't say they will kill adults of one another, but steal the kill and kill youngsters, especially the species that turns dominat. 

Exactly true.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: There is not space for another large apex predator then.

what?

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: And pre history there was much more land for the cats

Yes, but now land and prey are limited hence, populations of both lion and tiger will be limited and it doesn't mean they can't live in same place at all. More apex predators implies more biodiversity and stable ecosystem.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: and they fight in captivity because they are put together, they are aggressive and very dominant species, not only because of stress. Trust me they will fight if they meet... 

Again you are calling animals like dumb machines, they are living beings too... most of the confrontations, one of the animals chooses to escape and dont try to fight with a superior animal.
Ex: will a lone hyena go against a lion pride to fight? hyena will escape and don't fight. Same goes for tiger, if a tiger sees lion pride, it'll escape coz it is outnumbered to fight. and tiger is not god, its also animal. So, the fight amost never occur but predation on sick/old/juveniles occur on either sides to control each other populations if they don't hide/escape from the opposite one.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: If the tiger is trapped by a pride it would be killed.

It definitely will and it is required to so. But unlike in captivity, out there in the wild, tiger cornered by lion pride is near impossible coz there will be lots of space in the open for the tiger to escape and even before it can sense lions presence by smell, sight and hearing and avoids confrontation altogether.

and again tiger straying into lion habitat (not territory coz there are no territories b/w lions and tiger) is extremely rare coz tiger feels comfortable in its won habitat i.e.., vegetated forests not "dry" grasslands and vice versa to the lion. So both will live in their own habitats and even though they meet, one of them mostly tiger don't come in lions sight coz its suicide.

(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: The tiger would be treated as if it was another lion, and they would try all to kill the tiger. Same for a male tiger if he spots a lone lioness. That lioness would be in big trouble.

  w**!!!???? Every animal can recognize, its own species from other animal species. animals are not dumb and they do have eyes.
Yes, the lioness will be in trouble coz it can be threat to its cubs or another competitor for the prey animal, So Tiger chases away if seen, but most of the time, lioness stays clear of tiger's sight.

If neither of them happened situation like a tiger ambushes a sleeping lioness, silently and gets a hold on it then the lioness death is inevitable but it is also rare coz gir lionesses live in prides (most of the time). What's special in it? Don't a leopard or cheetah die if it gets ambushed by a lion or tiger if they can't escape and doomed?

It is all inter-specific competition and Lion-Tiger interaction is no exception for this competition and hence, they coexisted without getting competitive exclusion and outcompeting each other by preferring different habitats, if gets get confronted or strayed in each other habitats by controlling each other populations by predating on each other if given chance i.e.., if a lions corner a tiger/juvenile or tiger corner a lion/juvenile which will happen but rarely as most of the time the inferior one of the interactions retreats away from the site, if cubs they may hide themselves somewhere...
They may look same but they are different species of different lineage in Panthera genus and they can distinguish each other.

(02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.

Spotted Hyena here is Lion i.e.., Social and dominating (most of the time)

Leopard referred as Tiger i.e.., lone and dominating only in some cases like in one on one.

Just an example.

(02-13-2019, 09:32 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.

Spotted Hyena here is Lion i.e.., Social and dominating (most of the time)

Leopard referred as Tiger i.e.., lone and dominating only in some cases like in one on one.

Just an example.

Not even close at being similar..
Hyenas aren’t behaving in the same way cats are, they aren’t usually aggressive except when fighting for food, they might snach a smaller carnivore or cubs from the larger ones. Exceptions will occur when a injuried  lion or leopard is targeted, but the hyenas will kill to eat. So if hyenas doesn’t see an oppertunity for food or gets provoked in other ways they will rarely attack the other predators. Also leopards can easially avoid hyenas by climbing trees. Hyenas do not hate leopards and without food to fight for, they can be seen walking side by side without aggression. Leopards will also hide cubs in trees and buches where they would be hard to reach for a leopard, same goes for Hyena pups which will be hidden in dens protected heavily by the clan.

Lions and tigers on the other hand are both big and heavy neither are great climbers. They are similar buildt, only difference is that lions are social, and the tigers are bigger. They would hate one another intesely and at every oppertunity try to kill eachother. And they would have a difficulty shareing the same reserve. Tigeresses and cubs especially would be an easy target for a coalition of male lions. Lionesses will likely do better in groups.

(02-13-2019, 10:52 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 09:32 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:

(02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.

Spotted Hyena here is Lion i.e.., Social and dominating (most of the time)

Leopard referred as Tiger i.e.., lone and dominating only in some cases like in one on one.

Just an example.

Not even close at being similar..
Hyenas aren’t behaving in the same way cats are, they aren’t usually aggressive except when fighting for food, they might snach a smaller carnivore or cubs from the larger ones. Exceptions will occur when a injuried  lion or leopard is targeted, but the hyenas will kill to eat. So if hyenas doesn’t see an oppertunity for food or gets provoked in other ways they will rarely attack the other predators. Also leopards can easially avoid hyenas by climbing trees. Hyenas do not hate leopards and without food to fight for, they can be seen walking side by side without aggression. Leopards will also hide cubs in trees and buches where they would be hard to reach for a leopard, same goes for Hyena pups which will be hidden in dens protected heavily by the clan.

Lions and tigers on the other hand are both big and heavy neither are great climbers. They are similar buildt, only difference is that lions are social, and the tigers are bigger. They would hate one another intesely and at every oppertunity try to kill eachother. And they would have a difficulty shareing the same reserve. Tigeresses and cubs especially would be an easy target for a coalition of male lions. Lionesses will likely do better in groups.

I still don't understand how hybrids haven't been seen in modern history?

I find it unusual that a Tigress in heat hasn't come across a lone Male Lion looking for territory and proceeded to mate and produce cubs, it just seems like that scenario would happen if they did truly share jungle space throughout history. At least when looking at Captive situations we can see examples of this, even in parks like Everland where they both live together in numbers.
I don't think it's nearly as likely with a Lioness and a Male Tiger though, since lioness are rarely seen alone. My guess would be that in areas where both shared habitat, Tigress would leave to another area before announcing and scent marking but that is only a hypothesis.