(11-27-2019, 09:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: Anil Kumbal
I had a once in a lifetime sighting of Maya the tigress in #Tadoba, who was protecting her territory from another tigress. The sequence of pictures shared depicts the ferocious chase that culminated in a fight and a civilised way of asking the intruder to leave her territory. #WildlifeWednesday #sonyalpha #sonyalphaindia

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(11-27-2019, 10:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-27-2019, 09:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: Anil Kumbal
I had a once in a lifetime sighting of Maya the tigress in #Tadoba, who was protecting her territory from another tigress. The sequence of pictures shared depicts the ferocious chase that culminated in a fight and a civilised way of asking the intruder to leave her territory. #WildlifeWednesday #sonyalpha #sonyalphaindia

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Great photos!! I like especially the ones where these tigers run, beautiful animals and both are looking to be in great shape!

(11-29-2019, 04:56 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: ...the subordinate tiger yielded defeat by rolling onto its back and showing its belly in a submissive posture.

(11-29-2019, 10:08 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: It’s a misconception that just can’t be corrected @Rishi, no matter how much you try. Even the recent fight between T57 and T58 of Ranthambore showed tiger fighting on his back and getting all his claws involved to outmanoeuvre his opponent and he eventually came off better in the fight.

(11-29-2019, 10:25 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:08 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: It’s a misconception that just can’t be corrected @Rishi, no matter how much you try. Even the recent fight between T57 and T58 of Ranthambore showed tiger fighting on his back and getting all his claws involved to outmanoeuvre his opponent and he eventually came off better in the fight.

This is what submissions looks like in felids... except in some big-cats it's also the "standoff" posture. 

Choti Tara's subadult male cub & Maya confortation at Tadoba. 
November 2018. ©Safariwale[/url

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2340031942736275&id=1631380016934808

(11-29-2019, 11:23 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:25 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:08 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: It’s a misconception that just can’t be corrected @Rishi, no matter how much you try. Even the recent fight between T57 and T58 of Ranthambore showed tiger fighting on his back and getting all his claws involved to outmanoeuvre his opponent and he eventually came off better in the fight.

This is what submissions looks like in felids... except in some big-cats it's also the "standoff" posture. 

Choti Tara's subadult male cub & Maya confortation at Tadoba. 
November 2018. ©Safariwale[/url

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2340031942736275&id=1631380016934808

All animals have various ways to show, that they submit. Not just some certain posture or voice for instance. It´s also about overall attitude and little gestures. The one feeling weaker can show submission while standing, sitting or rolling on back etc. Rolling on back can happen because changing position to continue fighting, but it can also happen because trying to submit. Then again it can be, that even though the one rolling back tries to submit, other one is too enraged and continues to attack forcing other one to fight for his/hers life, no matter what. Every fight is a different one, these are wild animals, not some machines. That means, that the one showing first submission can actually win the fight, when forced to continue and situation changes from threatening to desperate.

People who have animals know, that animals have many ways to show signs of their mood. Learning those is the thing when training them. Rolling on back is one common way to show submission.

(11-29-2019, 02:44 PM)Rishi Wrote: ...I remember cases where another vicious bout broke out because one party didn't reciprocate the bow.

(11-29-2019, 02:44 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:23 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:25 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:08 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: It’s a misconception that just can’t be corrected @Rishi, no matter how much you try. Even the recent fight between T57 and T58 of Ranthambore showed tiger fighting on his back and getting all his claws involved to outmanoeuvre his opponent and he eventually came off better in the fight.

This is what submissions looks like in felids... except in some big-cats it's also the "standoff" posture. 

Choti Tara's subadult male cub & Maya confortation at Tadoba. 
November 2018. ©Safariwale[/url

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2340031942736275&id=1631380016934808

All animals have various ways to show, that they submit. Not just some certain posture or voice for instance. It´s also about overall attitude and little gestures. The one feeling weaker can show submission while standing, sitting or rolling on back etc. Rolling on back can happen because changing position to continue fighting, but it can also happen because trying to submit. Then again it can be, that even though the one rolling back tries to submit, other one is too enraged and continues to attack forcing other one to fight for his/hers life, no matter what. Every fight is a different one, these are wild animals, not some machines. That means, that the one showing first submission can actually win the fight, when forced to continue and situation changes from threatening to desperate.

People who have animals know, that animals have many ways to show signs of their mood. Learning those is the thing when training them. Rolling on back is one common way to show submission.

Ofcourse it's more complex than to be explained in a single sentence... But this is how I read them. (Using mostly tiger footages for convenience of comparison.)


"The crounch" for example, often done for holding ground in standoff & not always very meekly. Like my above example it often ends the face off with no physical contact. 

"The bow" I noted to be usually an offering of respite, reciprocated by both parties. Tigers are high-strung, jumpy animals & I remember cases where another vicious bout broke out because one party didn't reciprocate the bow. 

But when one side shifts to crounch from bow, it's always submission. 

Still as I said, in housecats for example, presenting belly is more of a show of trust. Panthera genus cats also do that sometimes, but mostly females during mating or siblings, so the same may apply.

"The roll-over" otherwise is very much defensive & often really aggressive.

I've seen crounching big cats ready to roll over or lying sideways, as safety measure to protect itself, to quickly turn over if it feels the dominant animal might still plunge in.

However NEVER have I ever seen a SINGLE case of them submitting by rolling over, even when there's no chance of physical confrontation. 
It's always defensive & quite effective how much smaller individuals can beat back larger ones by that.

But I don't think felids really comprehend social cues like canids or hyenids. 

A submissive cat will never expose just its belly to its foe, leaving upon the dominant one to take the clue & spare it... it'll put its 20 claws in between, which is oftentimes deterrence enough for the aggressor to hesitate & hold back. 
I'm sure many leopards will agree with me on that one.

(11-29-2019, 11:23 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:25 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 10:08 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: It’s a misconception that just can’t be corrected @Rishi, no matter how much you try. Even the recent fight between T57 and T58 of Ranthambore showed tiger fighting on his back and getting all his claws involved to outmanoeuvre his opponent and he eventually came off better in the fight.

This is what submissions looks like in felids... except in some big-cats it's also the "standoff" posture. 

Choti Tara's subadult male cub & Maya confortation at Tadoba. 
November 2018. ©Safariwale[/url

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2340031942736275&id=1631380016934808

All animals have various ways to show, that they submit. Not just some certain posture or voice for instance. It´s also about overall attitude and little gestures. The one feeling weaker can show submission while standing, sitting or rolling on back etc. Rolling on back can happen because changing position to continue fighting, but it can also happen because trying to submit. Then again it can be, that even though the one rolling back tries to submit, other one is too enraged and continues to attack forcing other one to fight for his/hers life, no matter what. Every fight is a different one, these are wild animals, not some machines. That means, that the one showing first submission can actually win the fight, when forced to continue and situation changes from threatening to desperate.

People who have animals know, that animals have many ways to show signs of their mood. Learning those is the thing when training them. Rolling on back is one common way to show submission.