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06-04-2019, 02:58 AM( This post was last modified: 06-04-2019, 03:01 AM by Shadow )
(06-04-2019, 01:56 AM)Pckts Wrote:
Quote:^Go email this statement to the actual experts.
Which experts exactly?
Most have found or confirmed the killings of the Animals listed.
Quote:Anyway, the leopard made the kill in Hoedspruit Wildlife Estate, which is in low carnivore density areas
The area is fenced off, the Leopards come and go a long with other predators, none of which are permanent residents and all of which are S. African who are very familiar with Lions.
Quote:For the Kudu cow kills, that is considered the biggest animal to kill in competitor dominated areas.
Based off of what exactly?
"A small female whose contribution to the leopard populations of Londolozi and the surrounding areas is as enduring as her will to survive. Independent from 10 months of age, she has come full circle and mastered the environment which is now her territory. Her mastery extends from survival to territorial defence to hunting. So efficient is her hunting ability that she was recently able to bring down two Kudu bulls in rapid succession."
Leopard killing a Bull Kudu in the Sabi Sands
All areas shown are Lion or Tiger dominated, yet Wildebeest, Kudu, Zebra, Herdebeest, Sambar, Nilgali are all on the menu.
Sometimes a Wildebeest can be larger than a Kudu, like I've said, all of these animals come in many different sizes.
Not all are the maximum weights listed on Wiki, in fact, 90% of them are much smaller with all kinds of different scars or injuries that can occur in the wild, age isn't determined nor can they determine general health from a scat or kill site.
Now if we were to flip this and I said, find me images of Leopards killing Sambar in Sri Lanka, can you?
Quote:For me relevant thing is part "leopard regularly killed". That can´t be denied with 1-2 photos, when trying to dispute result of scientific study, which doesn´t say that leopard wouldn´t kill at all big prey in presence of bigger predators. Regularly indicates naturally, that more often when no bigger predators.
There is no "regularly killed" there was only 4 out of 44 kills that were Sambar *3 of which were male and 1 was a sub adult*
Percentage of Kills consisting of large ungulate kills still the same as anywhere else and Sri Lanka like everywhere else showed Leopards preferred prey with in the 15-40kg range most often. And like everywhere else, the highest prey biomass of small/midsize ungulates *chital* contributes the most to Leopard predations in Sri Lanka and India.
Quote:Actually I have to admit, that I am not quite sure, about what here is now disagreement in the first place :)
I'm right there with you.
It has twisted and turned all over the place, this new one is based off of Leopards not killing large prey in Lion or Tiger dominated areas I think?
But of course, it doesn't matter if Lions or Tigers are there, if the prey biomass supports it, Leopards make the same sized kills and in areas where they have access to more prey biomass their numbers grow and that is regardless of Lion numbers as long as the prey supply is there.
So basically discussion is about it, that do leopards kill more big prey when there isn´t competition with bigger predators, or not. At least that is now issue. Then one was, that do cougars kill as big prey as leopards.
My personal opinion is, that when there are two quite same sized felines, differences are quite minor and if living in quite different environments, maybe no point to argue too much. Especially when both have been able to adapt in many kind of environments and different kind of prey animals. Well, of course if we would compare cheetah and leopard, it would be easy to find many major differences, but leopard and cougar are much closer call. This kind of comparisons go so easily to endless debates, so I want to make it clear, that this is my personal opinion and I have no interest to debate about cougar and leopard.
What comes to leopard prey selection and influence of presence or absence of bigger carnivores, easiest way to see clear answers would be good statistics, imo. But now I am too tired to focus, maybe looking closer tomorrow just for curiosity, in a way interesting topic.
06-04-2019, 02:45 PM( This post was last modified: 06-04-2019, 07:38 PM by Shadow )
When I look at this new discussion, that table about leopard and tiger in post #109 didn´t enlighten me in any way. That looks like some statistic about kills of tigers and leopards in some area, I didn´t see any source mentioned and nothing more to explain what it was all about.
What comes to #116, there sources were ok, but those studies seemed to have nothing to do with previous quotes etc. But in those people making studies gave clear statement, that leopards hunt bigger prey regularly, when no bigger carnivores present. But I didn´t see any clear statistics, which would be interesting to see when something like that is said.
In a way it sounds logical, that leopard might kill more often bigger prey when there is no fear to get robbed immediately by an animal, which leopard don´t dare to challenge at all. But I too would be interested to see some clear numbers and comparisons to understand how that statement is justified. Or maybe I really have to read that study more carefully. But if there is no comparison tables showing leopard hunting habits in areas without bigger predators compared to areas with them, this issue remains a bit unclear.
Then again whatever that situation is, I don´t quite understand what this discussion has to do with this thread? First there was discussion about cougars compared to leopards and now this is debate about leopards alone. Leopards can hunt quite big prey, so do cougars. So I try to understand now, what is relevant in this debate when looking at this thread and question asked in the beginning :)
Prey selection, food habits and dietary overlap between leopard Panthera pardus (Mammalia: Carnivora) and re-introduced tiger Panthera tigris (Mammalia: Carnivora) in a semi-arid forest of Sariska Tiger Reserve, Western India(Mondal et. al)
Here is what was stated in the same source:
"The contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet was 44.2% in 1990, when the study area was largely occupied by tigers (Sankar & Johnsingh 2002), but after the local extermination of tiger from the study area (2007-08), Mondal et al. (2011) found no contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet. Later, after the re-introduction of tiger in the study area (in 2009), the contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet raised to 5.4% (Table III). In 1990, chital contributed maximum in tiger diet (57.2%) followed by sambar (18.1%) and in leopard diet, rodent contributed maximum (44.2%) followed by chital (20.2%), sambar (19.4%) and nilgai (7%). But after the local extermination of tiger from the study area, the diet of leopard changed significantly. The contribution of sambar and nilgai in leopard’s diet increased to 40.3% and 11.5% respectively in 2007-08, when there was no tiger in the study area (Mondal et al. 2011) (Table III). It was evident that, leopard shifted their diet from lesser prey species. to large ungulates after tiger extermination from Sariska (Sankar et al. 2009; Mondal et al. 2011)"
You can see how they shifted to bigger kills when the tigers were temporarily extirpated.
My argument there will be a higher frequency of bigger kills for leopards in areas without carnivores or at least low density.
Kittle, Andrew et. al. The ecology and behaviour of a protected area Sri Lankan leopard (Panthera pardus kotiya) population. Tropical Ecology 58(1):71-86 February 2017
So here is the comparison using the data from each park:
Tiger dominated area (Pench Tiger Reserve), a Leopard made a rare adult female sambar kill, but still less compared to the total amount of young and juvenile kills (6.4% juvenile/subadult kills vs. 1.8% adult kill)
A place where Tigers were briefly extirpated (Sariska Tiger Reserve) , a Leopard made more adult male and female sambar kills than subadults or fawns ( 15% and 31% adult kills vs 11% subadult kills)
Now in a place where there are no major competitors (Yala, Sri Lanka), a Leopard made more adult male sambar kills ( 3 adult kills vs 1 juvenile/subadult kill)
My point was that the frequency of large kills (e.g. Sambar Stags) are greater in places without serious competitors, or increase when the original competitor population dies off.
That is why I used John Nash Nature Reserve, since there were not too many serious competitors, and they found an adult zebra and an eland cow killed by leopards (which is even considered rare in the main source).
I wasn't trying to demean the leopard, just pointing out that the make larger kills more often (higher frequency) in areas without other competitors, or a low competitor density.
I was addressing these previous statements in the thread.
faess Wrote: Wrote:So what constitutes theleopard being a better predator? Bigger prey? better kill rate? killing other bigger predators? Because can make a case for the mountain lion on all those accounts
GuateGojira Wrote: Wrote:The case of the leopard is also weird and we will need more evidence. Health state of the eland and true age and size are very relevant here. Normally, about 200 kg seems the normal limit for a large leopard in any territory.
I think that the most extreme case of one-to-one predation case are those of the puma and elk bull. There is video evidence of 60-90 kg pumas killing 300-400 kg male elks (if not slightly heavier).
06-04-2019, 11:36 PM( This post was last modified: 06-05-2019, 12:53 AM by Pckts )
(05-29-2019, 11:31 PM)Pckts Wrote:
Quote:Leopards killed Sambar Stags at a greater frequency in Yala, which has no lions or tigers:
Incorrect, only 4 Sambar appeared in the entire study and again the highest number of kills occurred from Chital, like they do anywhere else.
That's 4 out of 44 kills and not to mention they could of all been done by one Leopard who specializes in Sambar Kills, they could of been scavenged or of course Killed by the Leopard, but either way it's again a very minimal number.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"In RNP 86.4% of scat samples (N = 214) contained hair from medium to large mammal prey (axis deer, water buffalo, wild boar and sambar) consistent with previous observations here (Amerasinghe et al. 1990; Amerasinghe & Ekanayake 1992). Leopards tend to prefer prey between 10–40 kg with the strongest preference for animals 23–25 kg (Hayward et al. 2006). Young axis deer fit this size (Table 1) but overall axis deer are taken in proportion to their availability in RNP. Conversely sambar, the largest deer available here, seem to be selected by leopards. Seidensticker (1976) found leopards selecting for smaller age/sex classes of sambar in Royal Chitwan National Park, Nepal, however in RNP 75% (N = 4) of sambar carcasses detected were of adult males (215 kg, Santiapillai et al. 1981). Despite potential bias in carcass detection toward larger age/sex classes and a small sample size''
" particularly that carnivore population density appears determined by prey availability, not competition with dominant inter-specifics."
Quote:Leopards kill Sambar stags, and kill rates increase in areas without other serious competitors:
The Sambar Stag and adult female kills increased when Tigers were temporarily extirpated
" From the present study it was
understood that, when there was a large number of
tigers (12–16) in the study area (1988–1990), leopard was dependent on lesser bodied prey species
and occupied broader diet niche breadth than tiger
(Sankar & Johnsingh 2002). But after the extermination of tigers, diet of leopard completely shifted to
large bodied ungulates (Mondal et al. 2011). After
the re-introduction of tiger in the study area, both
the predators utilized the prey species in a similar
manner and showed similar preference towards large
ungulates. The dietary overlap between leopard and tiger was also increased from 54% (1988–1990) to 94% (present study). There was a noticeable difference observed in the selection of sex and age class of
prey species by these two predators, as leopard largely
hunted fawns and females of large ungulates, while
tiger largely hunted adult males, as observed by kill
records (Figure 8). At present, there are only six reintroduced tigers in Sariska TR. With the increase in
the number of re-introduced tigers a clearer picture
of prey utilization and dietary interaction between
these two top predators in the study area is expected"
*This image is copyright of its original author
While yes, Sambar numbers did go Up in Leopard prey between 2 studies that were 18 years apart, they continued to go up after the reintroduction of Tigers and not only did they go up but Chital numbers went down after the reintroduction. Also something to note is that not only did Leopard see an increase but so did the Tiger, both jumped up almost the same % between the 1990 study and the 2009 study.
Which I'm sure has more to do with an increase in prey biomass especially in the species where we see the significant jump.
Also note that 1990 study where some how Tigers take Chital more often than Leopards and Leopards took Sambar more often than Tigers, that alone should be a red flag that the two studies are have very different conclusions.
You've already posted that exact study and my response was above:
In regards to Pench, it's massive and consists of 2 different countries, it's also hot, dry and not nearly as filled with prey than Tadoba or Kanha for instance.
Can you post the link of the study so we can all the factors involved?
Again, I've shown predation on Sambar in Tiger and Lion Dominated territories and larger prey than that in Africa with in Lion Dominated territories.
For instance
"For leopard, common langur, sambar, wild pig and cat-tle were preferred more than their availability (Table 5 and Figure 2). Chital and gaur were consumed less than their availability. The index of prey selection by leopard at individual species level was in the following order: wild pig > sambar > common langur > cattle > gaur > chital (Table 5). "
Prey selection by tiger and leopard
"Sambar was observed to be the principle prey species for tigers as inferred from the percentage occurrence of prey remains in tiger scats (Table 2). Sambar also con-tributed to highest biomass of prey consumed by the tiger and was consumed more than the availability of individuals (Table 5 and Figure 2). Sambar’s preference by tiger could be attributed to the larger body weight and wide distribution of sambar across the study area and hence there could have been higher frequencies of encounter since both the species are crepuscular in habits (Johnsingh, 1983). Similar results were obtained by other studies in the country (Schaller 1967; Karanth and Sunquist 1995; Biswas and Sankar, 2002). Chital constituted 22.75% of the tiger diet during the present study which is less than that was reported from other areas i.e., Pench- 53.01% (Biswas and Sankar, 2002), Kanha-52.2% (Schaller, 1967), Nagarahole- 31.2% (Ka-ranth and Sunquist, 1995) and Bandipur- 39% (Johns-ingh, 1983).Leopard in the study area fed on 10 different prey spe-cies. Chital, sambar and common langur constituted 84.2% of leopard’s diet (Table 3) which is similar to the findings reported from Nagarahole (Karanth and Sunquist, 1995). In Sariska (Sankar and Johnsingh, 2002), chital, sambar and common langur constituted only 47.2% of the leopard’s diet. However in Sariska, Sankar and Johnsingh, (2002) reported a high percent-age of (45.6%) rodent remains in leopard scats and the reason for the same was attributed to the high rodent availability. On the contrary, during the present study no rodent remains were recorded in the leopard scats.The leopard preferred common langur, sambar and wild pig in the study area (Figure 2). It was observed that both tiger and leopard showed preference for sambar in the study area. Since leopard is nocturnal and tiger is crepuscular in habits (Prater, 1980) they may show preference for the same prey species but their utilization might be in different times (hours) of a day. The observed high dietary overlap (>72%) for the uti-lized prey species in terms of percentage of frequency occurrence of prey remain in the diet and percentage of biomass consumed by tiger and leopard may be at-tributed to high prey availability in the study area."
In the end, every study posted states the same more or less, Prey Biomass dictates the how many leopards and other carnivores can be supported.
No other factor other than that should be at the top of the list. All other factors *Competition, Climate, Terrain, Altitude, etc.* Should all be secondary. Any predation by Leopards on prey >65kg should be considered rare compared to the 15kg-50kg range which no matter the location, *Central Africa, South Africa, East Africa, Iran, Sri Lanka etc* all have similar average prey body mass. But the difference is the biomass, nothing in that range comes close to what is seen in Africa, especially in E. Africa which is why the Leopard population is so high there as well as the Lion population. I'm not saying that removing Lions from that eco system wouldn't be beneficial to Leopards but the facts remain that if the Ungulate Biomass is high, Lions will be there as long as other external factors aren't involved. And for an ecosystem to support any real number of Lions it must have a larger amount of prey, all other subordinate carnivores will benefit from this and that is why you see Leopard numbers so high even in these areas that have Lion density. The Serengeti is absolutely massive, and relatively speaking, different Lion prides live very close to one another which shows their patrol range isn't that massive or they've found a way to avoid each other and the same can be said for Leopards, they have obviously adapted to find ample space, different patrol times and locations to maintain some of the highest numbers on earth.
Prey selection, food habits and dietary overlap between leopard Panthera pardus (Mammalia: Carnivora) and re-introduced tiger Panthera tigris (Mammalia: Carnivora) in a semi-arid forest of Sariska Tiger Reserve, Western India(Mondal et. al)
Here is what was stated in the same source:
"The contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet was 44.2% in 1990, when the study area was largely occupied by tigers (Sankar & Johnsingh 2002), but after the local extermination of tiger from the study area (2007-08), Mondal et al. (2011) found no contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet. Later, after the re-introduction of tiger in the study area (in 2009), the contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet raised to 5.4% (Table III). In 1990, chital contributed maximum in tiger diet (57.2%) followed by sambar (18.1%) and in leopard diet, rodent contributed maximum (44.2%) followed by chital (20.2%), sambar (19.4%) and nilgai (7%). But after the local extermination of tiger from the study area, the diet of leopard changed significantly. The contribution of sambar and nilgai in leopard’s diet increased to 40.3% and 11.5% respectively in 2007-08, when there was no tiger in the study area (Mondal et al. 2011) (Table III). It was evident that, leopard shifted their diet from lesser prey species. to large ungulates after tiger extermination from Sariska (Sankar et al. 2009; Mondal et al. 2011)"
You can see how they shifted to bigger kills when the tigers were temporarily extirpated.
My argument there will be a higher frequency of bigger kills for leopards in areas without carnivores or at least low density.
Kittle, Andrew et. al. The ecology and behaviour of a protected area Sri Lankan leopard (Panthera pardus kotiya) population. Tropical Ecology 58(1):71-86 February 2017
So here is the comparison using the data from each park:
Tiger dominated area (Pench Tiger Reserve), a Leopard made a rare adult female sambar kill, but still less compared to the total amount of young and juvenile kills (6.4% juvenile/subadult kills vs. 1.8% adult kill)
A place where Tigers were briefly extirpated (Sariska Tiger Reserve) , a Leopard made more adult male and female sambar kills than subadults or fawns ( 15% and 31% adult kills vs 11% subadult kills)
Now in a place where there are no major competitors (Yala, Sri Lanka), a Leopard made more adult male sambar kills ( 3 adult kills vs 1 juvenile/subadult kill)
My point was that the frequency of large kills (e.g. Sambar Stags) are greater in places without serious competitors, or increase when the original competitor population dies off.
That is why I used John Nash Nature Reserve, since there were not too many serious competitors, and they found an adult zebra and an eland cow killed by leopards (which is even considered rare in the main source).
I wasn't trying to demean the leopard, just pointing out that the make larger kills more often (higher frequency) in areas without other competitors, or a low competitor density.
I was addressing these previous statements in the thread.
faess Wrote: Wrote:So what constitutes theleopard being a better predator? Bigger prey? better kill rate? killing other bigger predators? Because can make a case for the mountain lion on all those accounts
GuateGojira Wrote: Wrote:The case of the leopard is also weird and we will need more evidence. Health state of the eland and true age and size are very relevant here. Normally, about 200 kg seems the normal limit for a large leopard in any territory.
I think that the most extreme case of one-to-one predation case are those of the puma and elk bull. There is video evidence of 60-90 kg pumas killing 300-400 kg male elks (if not slightly heavier).
Ok, now it makes more sense. I found most interesting Table III where was showed that change in predation and prey animals 1990, 2008 and 2009. It would be very interesting to know something from 2015-2019 to see how situation has developed during longer period of time. But interesting study.
"While yes, Sambar numbers did go Up in Leopard prey between 2 studies that were 18 years apart, they continued to go up after the reintroduction of Tigers and not only did they go up but Chital numbers went down after the reintroduction. Also something to note is that not only did Leopard see an increase but so did the Tiger, both jumped up almost the same % between the 1990 study and the 2009 study. Which I'm sure has more to do with an increase in prey biomass especially in the species where we see the significant jump. Also note that 1990 study where some how Tigers take Chital more often than Leopards and Leopards took Sambar more often than Tigers, that alone should be a red flag that the two studies are have very different conclusions."
"While yes, Sambar numbers did go Up in Leopard prey between 2 studies that were 18 years apart, they continued to go up after the reintroduction of Tigers and not only did they go up but Chital numbers went down after the reintroduction. Also something to note is that not only did Leopard see an increase but so did the Tiger, both jumped up almost the same % between the 1990 study and the 2009 study. Which I'm sure has more to do with an increase in prey biomass especially in the species where we see the significant jump. Also note that 1990 study where some how Tigers take Chital more often than Leopards and Leopards took Sambar more often than Tigers, that alone should be a red flag that the two studies are have very different conclusions."
That study of course has to be read all the way to get the big picture. Interesting study and seems to leave some questions still a bit open after quick reading. Looks like to give some space still to speculation in different ways. One thing there is, that new tigers introduced to area were from other part of India and maybe learned already to favor some prey over other(?).
But maybe this topic belongs more to leopard predation thread if there is still will to continue debating. This(these) kind of studies naturally are interesting for people who like to learn more about leopards.
you can't really pick and choose what you want to make a leopard a better predator without evidence. I could also say a cougar can kill all the carnivoras a leopard can kill, but it would just be my opinion. I want to see evidence. I mean how often do you hear of Leopards killing black bears of their size, a matriarch hyena or even sun bears? Plus as far as big animals go, Cougar has a better success rate of killing them. I mean, its not like cougars have it easy too. They have the biggest land carnivore (outside of polar bear) and pack hunters to deal with as well.
"Despite their large size, adult moose can and are killed by mountain lions. Four out of seven radio collared moose released on the Manti in 1995 were killed by mountain lions. Geist (1998) discussed the efficiency of moose in avoiding pursuing and pack hunting predators such as wolves. However, moose may not be as well adapted to ambush type predators such as the mountain lion."
"People wonder if the cats get beat up during the capture process. F47 went and killed this adult moose just a few days after we recollared her. Its the first time we’ve documented a female cougar killing an adult moose on this project. I guess she is feeling ok!"
The Moose in Utah and Wyoming aren't that big. They are the smallest Moose subspecies of North America.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Grazers edited by John P. Rafferty Associate Editor, Earth Sciences
Weight in Wyoming:
"Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)."
"Moose (Alces alces) are the largest member of the deer family with 4 subspecies recognized in North America: Shiras moose (A. a. shirasi), Eastern moose (A. a. americana), Northwestern moose (A. a. andersoni), and Alaskan moose (A. a. gigas) (Bubenik 2007). Shiras is the smallest subspecies and the only one to occur in Utah and the western United States. Shiras bulls weigh considerably less than other moose but can still reach 800 pounds"
It is not unimpressive for the Cougar, but even a Leopard can pull it off.
They have killed adult Eland Cows, which are either equal to or bigger than Shirasi Moose bulls.
1. Leopard killed an adult Eland Cow (350-450 kg)
"Most remarkably, the remains of an adult female eland (Taurotragus oryx (Pallas)) werefound intact, except for the probable removal of the viscera prior to transport into the cave. Bite marks on the neck of the animal clearly indicate that the eland was killed through bite su¡ocation. This animal would have weighed between 350 and 450 kg alive (Skinner & Smithers, 1990; Estes, 1991)"
Leopard (Panthera pardus Linneaus) cave caching related to anti-theft behaviour in the John Nash Nature Reserve, South Africa by Darryl J. de Ruiter and Lee R. Berger
2. Another Leopard killed an Eland Cow.
Here are the remains.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Stuarts’ Field Guide to Tracks & Signs of Southern, Central & East African Wildlife by Chris Stuart, Mathilde Stuart
3. A researcher found two adult Eland females killed by Leopard.
" However, two of the eland killed were adult females, suggesting that leopards in the area are capable of killing large prey weighing over 300 kg. "
The Leopards in this part of South Africa, Little Karoo, are quite small.
"Males: 41.0 kg Females: 21.0 kg"
Aspects of the Ecology of Leopards (Panthera pardus) in the Little Karoo, South Africa by Gareth Mann
Of course, the researchers use the minimal weights of 300 kg for Eland females, but they tend to be 400+ kg in many area.
(06-06-2015, 07:11 PM)brotherbear Wrote: ~wanna discuss which carnivorus mammal on land whio's the most impressive after the 3 biggest cat's (lion, tiger and jaguar)
and all bears (except the sun bear)? let me hear you're opinions.
The big cats are more efficient predators than bears ( sun bear being no exception ).
(06-06-2015, 08:00 PM)faess Wrote:
Its pretty much a fact that Cougars have killed bears and wolves a lot more than leopards kill other predators around the same size. If you look in one of the earlier pages of edge of extinction, you read a brief description of the Leopard being less confrontational than a Tiger.
This lion doesn’t run, instead kills, eats wolf
Wild-eyed research cat stripped lobo to the bone, researcher says.
This needs a slight update, but an adult Wolf was killed by a sub-adult female Leopard name Victoria.
"It is worth noting that the first release of leopards into their natural habitat took place in July 2016. New residents appeared on the territory of the Caucasus Reserve: two-year-old male Killy and three-year-old Victoria and Akhun. Each of them wore special radio collars, signals from which made it possible to monitor the movements and actions of big cats. During the year of their stay in the reserve, the leopards caught 15 deer, six rounds and a chamois, two roe deer, four wild boars, and Victoria managed to get even an adult wolf! [7] Unfortunately, after 62 weeks, a self-reset program is triggered in these collars, so today leopards are no longer under constant surveillance."
The Wolf that was killed was either a Steppe Wolf, which is similar to a female sub-adult Leopard at 35-40 kg, or the Wolf was a bigger subspecies:
"As we can see from the table, the skulls of Caucasian wolves are basically similar in size to a wolf from Europe, but they are significantly inferior to the skulls of tundra wolves from Taimyr. Nevertheless, these indicators overlap among all the discussed subspecies. It should also be noted that the Caucasian subspecies of the wolf is still not well understood and differs (like the European one) in its large size variability. On the plains of Transcaucasia, wolves are slightly smaller than those living in the North Caucasus. Probably in the south (and also in the east) they mix with southern subspecies of wolves, such as Canis lupus campestris (the Caspian wolf, also called the Caucasian steppe wolf) and Canis lupus desertorum (desert wolf). In turn, in the north of the range, the Caucasian subspecies is closely adjacent to the nominative - Canis lupus lupus. Wolves of the Armenian Highlands, described as Canis lupus hajastanicus are somewhat larger than the flat ones and in size they correspond to the animals from the North Caucasus. Usually they write that the maximum weight of the Caucasian wolf is 45 kg, as an exception - up to 50 kg. However, animals of very large sizes are known from Georgia. So, one wolf, caught in the mountains in northwestern Georgia in 1999, had 81-82 cm at the withers. The body mass of such large specimens is clearly much higher than 50 kg and is at least 60 kg, and most likely slightly more. Judging by the tracks of wolves, larger specimens are also found in Georgia"
(06-06-2015, 09:33 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Yeah I'm not surprised that cougars does kill wolves. Because they are extrodanary killers, in the leopards case leopards imo has tougher opponents, it is extreamly rare they kill hyenas, but hyenas are in a different leauge and much harder to kill than a wolf, and often there are more than one they usually move in group's of 2-8 animals, I don't think they would feel very threatened by cougars neither, but leopards does avoid conflicts with wild dog packs, hyenas and lions all which could also pose a danger to a cougar aswell, I've seen a leopard also defend her kill against a slothbear and cougars against black bears. I've seen cougars chased by coyotes and wolves.. But to be honest ofcourse a cougar would defeat coyotes and also a single wolf if the cougar is big, but so could a leopard. Leopards are sometimes getting chased by wild dogs, but I've seen pictures if wild dogs hanging dead in trees.
I would defenatly without a shadow of a doubt put the leopard as the number 4 cat, ahead of the cougar, but it's my own honest opinion
Can agree. Single Hyenas are much stronger than single Wolves.
you can't really pick and choose what you want to make a leopard a better predator without evidence. I could also say a cougar can kill all the carnivoras a leopard can kill, but it would just be my opinion. I want to see evidence. I mean how often do you hear of Leopards killing black bears of their size, a matriarch hyena or even sun bears? Plus as far as big animals go, Cougar has a better success rate of killing them. I mean, its not like cougars have it easy too. They have the biggest land carnivore (outside of polar bear) and pack hunters to deal with as well.
"Despite their large size, adult moose can and are killed by mountain lions. Four out of seven radio collared moose released on the Manti in 1995 were killed by mountain lions. Geist (1998) discussed the efficiency of moose in avoiding pursuing and pack hunting predators such as wolves. However, moose may not be as well adapted to ambush type predators such as the mountain lion."
"People wonder if the cats get beat up during the capture process. F47 went and killed this adult moose just a few days after we recollared her. Its the first time we’ve documented a female cougar killing an adult moose on this project. I guess she is feeling ok!"
The Moose in Utah and Wyoming aren't that big. They are the smallest Moose subspecies of North America.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Grazers edited by John P. Rafferty Associate Editor, Earth Sciences
Weight in Wyoming:
"Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)."
"Moose (Alces alces) are the largest member of the deer family with 4 subspecies recognized in North America: Shiras moose (A. a. shirasi), Eastern moose (A. a. americana), Northwestern moose (A. a. andersoni), and Alaskan moose (A. a. gigas) (Bubenik 2007). Shiras is the smallest subspecies and the only one to occur in Utah and the western United States. Shiras bulls weigh considerably less than other moose but can still reach 800 pounds"
It is not unimpressive for the Cougar, but even a Leopard can pull it off.
They have killed adult Eland Cows, which are either equal to or bigger than Shirasi Moose bulls.
1. Leopard killed an adult Eland Cow (350-450 kg)
"Most remarkably, the remains of an adult female eland (Taurotragus oryx (Pallas)) werefound intact, except for the probable removal of the viscera prior to transport into the cave. Bite marks on the neck of the animal clearly indicate that the eland was killed through bite su¡ocation. This animal would have weighed between 350 and 450 kg alive (Skinner & Smithers, 1990; Estes, 1991)"
Leopard (Panthera pardus Linneaus) cave caching related to anti-theft behaviour in the John Nash Nature Reserve, South Africa by Darryl J. de Ruiter and Lee R. Berger
2. Another Leopard killed an Eland Cow.
Here are the remains.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Stuarts’ Field Guide to Tracks & Signs of Southern, Central & East African Wildlife by Chris Stuart, Mathilde Stuart
3. A researcher found two adult Eland females killed by Leopard.
" However, two of the eland killed were adult females, suggesting that leopards in the area are capable of killing large prey weighing over 300 kg. "
The Leopards in this part of South Africa, Little Karoo, are quite small.
"Males: 41.0 kg Females: 21.0 kg"
Aspects of the Ecology of Leopards (Panthera pardus) in the Little Karoo, South Africa by Gareth Mann
Of course, the researchers use the minimal weights of 300 kg for Eland females, but they tend to be 400+ kg in many area.
Anyway, Leopards can also kill large ungulates.
Cougar predates on moose on other parts of North America too, especially on British Columbia where the moose grows bigger.
Ferocious appetites: Study finds mountain lions may be eating more than previously believed
"Knopff basis his conclusions on data collected from more than 1,500 kill sites while tracking 54 cougars with GPS collars. The collars allowed the University of Alberta researchers, including his wife Aliah, to move in quickly after a kill to identify what was taken and by which lion. ..... The use of GPS collars enabled Knopff and his colleagues to collect more data. As a result, he found that mountain lions killed more deer, elk and moose during the summer by focusing on juveniles and actually killed fewer animals in winter. The information contradicts previous studies conducted in Idaho. ....The mountain lions' prey included deer, elk, bighorn sheep, coyotes, feral horses, beaver and porcupines. ....Adult male cougars can weigh 140 to 165 pounds. One male cougar in Knopff's study tipped the scales at 180 pounds and primarily fed on moose and feral horses. Females typically weigh around 100 pounds. From nose to tail the big cats can measure 6.5 to 10 feet long. The average lifespan for a male is 8 to 10 years, 12 to 14 for females. ..... “Our kill rate estimates indicate that adult cougars are highly effective predators, killing at rates at the upper end of those recorded for wolves in both frequency and biomass,” Knopff wrote. .... “We had one male cougar kill 18 moose in less than a year,” Knopff said. https://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html
Moose size in BC:
"In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weight is 595 kg, but some bulls are undoubtedly heavier. Moose have long legs to help them travel through fallen timber, muskeg, and deep snow."
Cougars all across North America predate on ungulates much larger than themselves, in fact every ungulate in in the menu minus adult bison. Moose, elk, wild horse, deer, feral hog, etc.
you can't really pick and choose what you want to make a leopard a better predator without evidence. I could also say a cougar can kill all the carnivoras a leopard can kill, but it would just be my opinion. I want to see evidence. I mean how often do you hear of Leopards killing black bears of their size, a matriarch hyena or even sun bears? Plus as far as big animals go, Cougar has a better success rate of killing them. I mean, its not like cougars have it easy too. They have the biggest land carnivore (outside of polar bear) and pack hunters to deal with as well.
"Despite their large size, adult moose can and are killed by mountain lions. Four out of seven radio collared moose released on the Manti in 1995 were killed by mountain lions. Geist (1998) discussed the efficiency of moose in avoiding pursuing and pack hunting predators such as wolves. However, moose may not be as well adapted to ambush type predators such as the mountain lion."
"People wonder if the cats get beat up during the capture process. F47 went and killed this adult moose just a few days after we recollared her. Its the first time we’ve documented a female cougar killing an adult moose on this project. I guess she is feeling ok!"
The Moose in Utah and Wyoming aren't that big. They are the smallest Moose subspecies of North America.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Grazers edited by John P. Rafferty Associate Editor, Earth Sciences
Weight in Wyoming:
"Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)."
"Moose (Alces alces) are the largest member of the deer family with 4 subspecies recognized in North America: Shiras moose (A. a. shirasi), Eastern moose (A. a. americana), Northwestern moose (A. a. andersoni), and Alaskan moose (A. a. gigas) (Bubenik 2007). Shiras is the smallest subspecies and the only one to occur in Utah and the western United States. Shiras bulls weigh considerably less than other moose but can still reach 800 pounds"
It is not unimpressive for the Cougar, but even a Leopard can pull it off.
They have killed adult Eland Cows, which are either equal to or bigger than Shirasi Moose bulls.
1. Leopard killed an adult Eland Cow (350-450 kg)
"Most remarkably, the remains of an adult female eland (Taurotragus oryx (Pallas)) werefound intact, except for the probable removal of the viscera prior to transport into the cave. Bite marks on the neck of the animal clearly indicate that the eland was killed through bite su¡ocation. This animal would have weighed between 350 and 450 kg alive (Skinner & Smithers, 1990; Estes, 1991)"
Leopard (Panthera pardus Linneaus) cave caching related to anti-theft behaviour in the John Nash Nature Reserve, South Africa by Darryl J. de Ruiter and Lee R. Berger
2. Another Leopard killed an Eland Cow.
Here are the remains.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Stuarts’ Field Guide to Tracks & Signs of Southern, Central & East African Wildlife by Chris Stuart, Mathilde Stuart
3. A researcher found two adult Eland females killed by Leopard.
" However, two of the eland killed were adult females, suggesting that leopards in the area are capable of killing large prey weighing over 300 kg. "
The Leopards in this part of South Africa, Little Karoo, are quite small.
"Males: 41.0 kg Females: 21.0 kg"
Aspects of the Ecology of Leopards (Panthera pardus) in the Little Karoo, South Africa by Gareth Mann
Of course, the researchers use the minimal weights of 300 kg for Eland females, but they tend to be 400+ kg in many area.
Anyway, Leopards can also kill large ungulates.
Cougar predates on moose on other parts of North America too, especially on British Columbia where the moose grows bigger.
Ferocious appetites: Study finds mountain lions may be eating more than previously believed
"Knopff basis his conclusions on data collected from more than 1,500 kill sites while tracking 54 cougars with GPS collars. The collars allowed the University of Alberta researchers, including his wife Aliah, to move in quickly after a kill to identify what was taken and by which lion. ..... The use of GPS collars enabled Knopff and his colleagues to collect more data. As a result, he found that mountain lions killed more deer, elk and moose during the summer by focusing on juveniles and actually killed fewer animals in winter. The information contradicts previous studies conducted in Idaho. ....The mountain lions' prey included deer, elk, bighorn sheep, coyotes, feral horses, beaver and porcupines. ....Adult male cougars can weigh 140 to 165 pounds. One male cougar in Knopff's study tipped the scales at 180 pounds and primarily fed on moose and feral horses. Females typically weigh around 100 pounds. From nose to tail the big cats can measure 6.5 to 10 feet long. The average lifespan for a male is 8 to 10 years, 12 to 14 for females. ..... “Our kill rate estimates indicate that adult cougars are highly effective predators, killing at rates at the upper end of those recorded for wolves in both frequency and biomass,” Knopff wrote. .... “We had one male cougar kill 18 moose in less than a year,” Knopff said. https://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html
Moose size in BC:
"In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weight is 595 kg, but some bulls are undoubtedly heavier. Moose have long legs to help them travel through fallen timber, muskeg, and deep snow."
Cougars all across North America predate on ungulates much larger than themselves, in fact every ungulate in in the menu minus adult bison. Moose, elk, wild horse, deer, feral hog, etc.
Actually, the guy mentioned Alberta, Canada.
Found this study on Cougar predation of Moose in that region.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
No adult Moose were found to have been killed by Cougars. All moose killed by cougars (both male and female) were young - 88% were calves and 12% were yearlings.
you can't really pick and choose what you want to make a leopard a better predator without evidence. I could also say a cougar can kill all the carnivoras a leopard can kill, but it would just be my opinion. I want to see evidence. I mean how often do you hear of Leopards killing black bears of their size, a matriarch hyena or even sun bears? Plus as far as big animals go, Cougar has a better success rate of killing them. I mean, its not like cougars have it easy too. They have the biggest land carnivore (outside of polar bear) and pack hunters to deal with as well.
"Despite their large size, adult moose can and are killed by mountain lions. Four out of seven radio collared moose released on the Manti in 1995 were killed by mountain lions. Geist (1998) discussed the efficiency of moose in avoiding pursuing and pack hunting predators such as wolves. However, moose may not be as well adapted to ambush type predators such as the mountain lion."
"People wonder if the cats get beat up during the capture process. F47 went and killed this adult moose just a few days after we recollared her. Its the first time we’ve documented a female cougar killing an adult moose on this project. I guess she is feeling ok!"
The Moose in Utah and Wyoming aren't that big. They are the smallest Moose subspecies of North America.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Grazers edited by John P. Rafferty Associate Editor, Earth Sciences
Weight in Wyoming:
"Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)."
"Moose (Alces alces) are the largest member of the deer family with 4 subspecies recognized in North America: Shiras moose (A. a. shirasi), Eastern moose (A. a. americana), Northwestern moose (A. a. andersoni), and Alaskan moose (A. a. gigas) (Bubenik 2007). Shiras is the smallest subspecies and the only one to occur in Utah and the western United States. Shiras bulls weigh considerably less than other moose but can still reach 800 pounds"
It is not unimpressive for the Cougar, but even a Leopard can pull it off.
They have killed adult Eland Cows, which are either equal to or bigger than Shirasi Moose bulls.
1. Leopard killed an adult Eland Cow (350-450 kg)
"Most remarkably, the remains of an adult female eland (Taurotragus oryx (Pallas)) werefound intact, except for the probable removal of the viscera prior to transport into the cave. Bite marks on the neck of the animal clearly indicate that the eland was killed through bite su¡ocation. This animal would have weighed between 350 and 450 kg alive (Skinner & Smithers, 1990; Estes, 1991)"
Leopard (Panthera pardus Linneaus) cave caching related to anti-theft behaviour in the John Nash Nature Reserve, South Africa by Darryl J. de Ruiter and Lee R. Berger
2. Another Leopard killed an Eland Cow.
Here are the remains.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Stuarts’ Field Guide to Tracks & Signs of Southern, Central & East African Wildlife by Chris Stuart, Mathilde Stuart
3. A researcher found two adult Eland females killed by Leopard.
" However, two of the eland killed were adult females, suggesting that leopards in the area are capable of killing large prey weighing over 300 kg. "
The Leopards in this part of South Africa, Little Karoo, are quite small.
"Males: 41.0 kg Females: 21.0 kg"
Aspects of the Ecology of Leopards (Panthera pardus) in the Little Karoo, South Africa by Gareth Mann
Of course, the researchers use the minimal weights of 300 kg for Eland females, but they tend to be 400+ kg in many area.
Anyway, Leopards can also kill large ungulates.
Cougar predates on moose on other parts of North America too, especially on British Columbia where the moose grows bigger.
Ferocious appetites: Study finds mountain lions may be eating more than previously believed
"Knopff basis his conclusions on data collected from more than 1,500 kill sites while tracking 54 cougars with GPS collars. The collars allowed the University of Alberta researchers, including his wife Aliah, to move in quickly after a kill to identify what was taken and by which lion. ..... The use of GPS collars enabled Knopff and his colleagues to collect more data. As a result, he found that mountain lions killed more deer, elk and moose during the summer by focusing on juveniles and actually killed fewer animals in winter. The information contradicts previous studies conducted in Idaho. ....The mountain lions' prey included deer, elk, bighorn sheep, coyotes, feral horses, beaver and porcupines. ....Adult male cougars can weigh 140 to 165 pounds. One male cougar in Knopff's study tipped the scales at 180 pounds and primarily fed on moose and feral horses. Females typically weigh around 100 pounds. From nose to tail the big cats can measure 6.5 to 10 feet long. The average lifespan for a male is 8 to 10 years, 12 to 14 for females. ..... “Our kill rate estimates indicate that adult cougars are highly effective predators, killing at rates at the upper end of those recorded for wolves in both frequency and biomass,” Knopff wrote. .... “We had one male cougar kill 18 moose in less than a year,” Knopff said. https://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html
Moose size in BC:
"In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weight is 595 kg, but some bulls are undoubtedly heavier. Moose have long legs to help them travel through fallen timber, muskeg, and deep snow."
Cougars all across North America predate on ungulates much larger than themselves, in fact every ungulate in in the menu minus adult bison. Moose, elk, wild horse, deer, feral hog, etc.
Actually, the guy mentioned Alberta, Canada.
Found this study on Cougar predation of Moose in that region.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
No adult Moose were found to have been killed by Cougars. All moose killed by cougars (both male and female) were young - 88% were calves and 12% were yearlings.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Those ungulates targeted tended to be young of the year or adults with yearlings, largely because they were easier to subdue." The article is pointing out that while calves and subadults are preferred due to their smaller size, they will target adult cows with yearlings as well. Cougars killing adult cow moose in BC is actually documented (the juvenile black bear was also found as a prey item), from the study Cougar Ecology, Predation, and Caribou in the Columbia Mountains of British Columbia:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A percentage of the moose targeted represented animals older than 18 months of age, which most likely includes mature adults (kills made by one single male):
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is actually no different than the rate of eland calf predation by leopards. The instances of predation of adult or sub-adult cows represent different isolated instances, but generally, the predation on eland by leopards is focused entirely on calves:
"Although life seems good in these juvenile gangs and generally eland are long lived, mortality can be high in youngsters. Whilst studying leopard in South Africa we found eland was a common prey item, in fact we discovered three kills within a month of eland less than six months old and those were just the ones we found. Lion and hyena are also known to take their toll. There is no real synchronised birthing in eland herds with young born at anytime. I guess this means there is always a slightly younger, less savvy, youngster in the crèche that is easy prey for predators."
behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator?
