WildFact
›
General Section
›
Debate and Discussion about Wild Animals
behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator?
behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator?
|
behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator?
|
http://www.khq.com/story/26153982/mounta...-deer-lake
~Cougar fatally attacks horse near a kids camp~SPOKANE COUNTY, Wash. - STEVENS COUNTY, Wash - The Washington Department Of Fish and Wildlife is actively hunting a cougar near Deer Lake in Stevens County. Tuesday night fish and wildlife officials say a cougar came down from the hills and attacked a 14-year-old horse. The horse was later put down because of its severe injuries. The mare, named Diamond, was a prize horse to Sandy Ridler, who said, "even though I am heartbroken about my horse, I am glad it was not one of the children." The attack happened less than a mile down the road from Camp Gifford,a kids camp that is a summer gathering for about 150 kids.KHQ spoke with camp leaders who say the cougar was sighted in the woods just hours before the attack. The kids were moved from a wilderness camp to the main camp on Deer Lake. Chris Adams with the camp says "it would normally be about one or two people walking around the camp," for head checks. But with the attack "it's now three or four making a lot of noise because you don't want to startle anything. Also as much as possible staying indoors after the sun goes down."The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife says the attack was rare event. Officials say they are tracking the cougar and if they catch it they will euthanize it. The internet is filled with tales of cougar attacks on horses. Also, I read a great deal of literature about the 'old west' and I know that cougars are notorious horse killers.  (06-06-2015, 09:33 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Yeah I'm not surprised that cougars does kill wolves. Because they are extrodanary killers, in the leopards case leopards imo has tougher opponents, it is extreamly rare they kill hyenas, but hyenas are in a different leauge and much harder to kill than a wolf, and often there are more than one they usually move in group's of 2-8 animals, I don't think they would feel very threatened by cougars neither, but leopards does avoid conflicts with wild dog packs, hyenas and lions all which could also pose a danger to a cougar aswell, I've seen a leopard also defend her kill against a slothbear and cougars against black bears. I've seen cougars chased by coyotes and wolves.. But to be honest ofcourse a cougar would defeat coyotes and also a single wolf if the cougar is big, but so could a leopard. Leopards are sometimes getting chased by wild dogs, but I've seen pictures if wild dogs hanging dead in trees.Now now pantherinae, you know there is absolutely no way to determine who is "tougher to kill" between a wolf or hyenna. I already showed how durable Wolves are, they are equal in size and both equipped to kill. That being said, a cougars get ran off by wolves and they kill wolves it actually depends on the location. Areas with many trees are where wolves fall victime and areas with more open terrain are where wolves kill Cougars. Hyennas are far less successful when it comes to killing Leopards, it almost never happens, especially with a full grown leopard and a full grown male leopard is not something that has ever happened to my knowledge. Lets just use common sense, just say leopards and cougar are the same skilled climbers, look at facts Leopards are larger in all areas that matter, size of chest, limb girth, neck, jaws, canines, claws and they carry animals larger than themselves up trees, cougars do not. Leopards and Cougars are both skilled predators but advantages are on the side of the leopard. But cougars are absolutely deserving of being put in the same category of killer but if you continued to put different animals in front of both, I think the cougar would be slightly less successful than the Leopard. Meaning as you put a Gazelle, then Wildabeast then Kudu, then Elk, Then Moose, Then Buffalo Cow etc.. all the way up the list, I think the Leopard would have the better kill %. I just go off of weapons and power. Usually the determining factor when making a kill. Assume both are equal stalkers. 
say whatever you want pckts, but it's not something to discuss, it common knowledge for animal enthusiast's that the hyena is a more durable animal.
beeing trowed arround by a young bison is absoulutley nothing when you discuss in durability against other carnivores, spotted hyenas get's attacked by 10 wild dogs survives, a smaller hyena spicies the striped hyena can walk in and steal the kill from 12 arabian wolves. to draw a comparison wolves get's killed often by cougars, and they meet far less often than leopards (which I see as a much tougher apponent, than a cougar) and hyenas, and hyenas and leopards respect eachother, but extreamly rarely kills adult indeviduvals. and hyenas do not see a leopard as a threat, but a respected oppnent. I'll leave the debate ¨hyena vs wolf¨with this video, would a wolf survive that?....no..... (06-07-2015, 08:39 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: say whatever you want pckts, but it's not something to discuss, it common knowledge for animal enthusiast's that the hyena is a more durable animal. It's common knowledge to who? I can show wild dogs running off hyennas and the arabian wolves are much smaller than a hyenna. We are talking about same sized animals, aka Grey Wolves and those guys will fight a grizzly for a kill. A hyenna pack of 20 wont even challenge a healthy lone male lion for a kill. A young bison? You mean a massive bison and the wolf never stops attacking after fighting an animals 10xs it self in body weight? Showing one video where I can show another of a hyenna being killed in seconds with one bite means what exactly? You can't just cherry pick a video and say "see" and I can show another video contradicting it and you turn a blind eye to it. Durability is immeasureable, it comes down to courage or heart. There is no animal with more courage or heart than canines. They are the most tenacious and couragous animals alive, I think most would agree with that. Animals, especially canines will keep going until they die. So unless you can put a study where they would test for pain tolerance, pain received etc, is measured, You can never ever say its "common knowledge" since there is nothing "Common" about it.
say whaterver you want. I agree the wolf attacking the Bison is impressive, but that's predator vs prey.
a hyena and wolf interraction is something different. canines are cunning as hell, but again here is a difference between wild animals and domesticated canines, I've owned tough dogs and dogs affraid of almost anything, many times it depends on what the rase is breead to act like. a wolf is tough. fair enough a hyena can get killed by a male lion easy, but you rarely see leopardas kill them when they challenge eachother one on one, there comes new videos weekly of leopards and hyenas yet I have never seen they kill eachother on video. there are raports of both animals killing eachother, but it certanly is a rare thing speciallaised indeviduals have learned. I would think leopards would be a big threat to lone wolves. and yes common knowledge maybe was wrong word of use, but come on! still surviving that attack is extreame a male lion having a throat grip on you twice and bite of a leg... that's proof enough for me.
I have never stated that Hyenas are not durable, I simply state that trying to say one is more durable than the other is impossible. Especially when examples of durability exist that prove it. Could a hyena sustain the beating the wolf was taking from the Bison and continue attacking?
Who knows, but thats the point. We don't know so we can't say for sure. Thats all I'm trying to say.
to be honest, no I don't think the hyena would keep attacking the bison, hyenas can act like a real wimp and are ofen giving up on prey if they stand their ground, I have been watching hyenas closely and written and studied hyenas (on videos, storries etc) for many years. a hyena can chase away 6 cheetah's and also get chased by a single cheetah if the cheetah stands it's ground, also single hyenas have chased away large male leopards from their kills, but there are also pictures and videos of lone leopards eating alongside several hyenas, even a caracal has been filmed keeping at bay 3 hyenas And ofcourse a hyena could kill a caracal in one single bite, but he get's stunned by the currage of the little cat.
also there are videos of hyenas beeing chased by wildebeest, but also pictures of single hyenas killing adult cape buffalo so hyenas are very complicated with that. but one thing for sure a dominant hyena in action, is something very few animals can battle down. in my opinion a wolf stands no chance at all! not because I like the hyena more, or because I don't respect the power of a wolf, but hyenas are to tough. for me even a single hyena is right up there with leopards and cougars, and the wolf a few steps behind. (06-08-2015, 03:06 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: to be honest, no I don't think the hyena would keep attacking the bison, hyenas can act like a real wimp and are ofen giving up on prey if they stand their ground, I have been watching hyenas closely and written and studied hyenas (on videos, storries etc) for many years. a hyena can chase away 6 cheetah's and also get chased by a single cheetah if the cheetah stands it's ground, also single hyenas have chased away large male leopards from their kills, but there are also pictures and videos of lone leopards eating alongside several hyenas, even a caracal has been filmed keeping at bay 3 hyenas And ofcourse a hyena could kill a caracal in one single bite, but he get's stunned by the currage of the little cat. Thats your opinion, I don't agree, lets just leave it at that. 
I want to add one very formidable candidate as "secret" top performer. One of the most respected mammals in it's distribution range, it's often overlooked and perhaps forgotten in such debate's, but it deserves to be mentioned:
The allmighty Honey Badger! (With the epic trailer narrated by Randal ![]()<br />
<br />
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/23/article-1172859-0494502D000005DC-488_468x291.jpg) *This image is copyright of its original author Honey Badger's -if not robbing honey from beehives- prey on almost every animal in their size range and sometimes they will scavange from kills of much larger predator's. Thank's to their loose skin on their back, Ratel's are able to survive occasional attack's from hyena's, leopard's and even lion's. Combined with their claws, physical strength for their size, sent secretion and last but not least durability, toughness and ferocity, they are a respected by every creature in their environment and able to deliver nasty wounds to almost any attacker.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author A (possibly young) leopard which tried to prey on a adult honey badger. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...cting.html Reported case of Ratel - leopard interaction  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author A Ratel managed to escape from a lion pride, which he entered accidentely. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-hole.html  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Some interaction with other animals, including turtle, rock python and porcupine.  *This image is copyright of its original author What fascinate's me most is, that evolution made cheetah cubs look like Ratel's, evolving the so called "Mimicry" effect.  *This image is copyright of its original author Of course, those fantastic creatures are not invulnerable and big predator's will prey on them occasionaly, but one thing is guaranteed: The Honey badger won't go down without a fight! In case of toughness, the performance to survive attacks from lion's 15-20 times of it's own size, is an amazing performance, unmatched by any other animal in my opinion. Last but not least, a funny video about a Ratel chasing a tourist vehicle  Funny joke from a youtube comment: "If HB's would weigh 500 lbs, would they hunt lions or even elephant's?"...Answer: "No, they would prefer soviet tanks". It's a pity, that there is no reported interaction between tiger's and HB's on the indian subcontinent. I'm sure a tiger (same as lion) would kill a Ratel, if he really want's to. But like with lions, it would be a hell of amusement, to see asia's apex predator back off from a much smaller Ratel.^^ My Vote goes therefore to the honey badger, in case of toughness and surviving performance. I let someone else adding wolverine's, if he/she want's to. 
Wow, That's awesome post. No doubt we have seen how tough these animals are. Not only tough they are very clever too.
Thanks for making such a lovely post about them
Its a great post Brehmji and by no fault of your own, you posted it here but technically this isn't about durability, @Pantherinae and my self got a little side tracked as we do from time to time. This thread is about the best predator outside of the big 4 Panthera cats.
Thanks for compliments:)
Ok, i misinterpreted something then @Pckts So, it's about a summary of predatory performance combined with interaction with other predator's? In that case, my vote would go to the saltwater or nile crocodile, since they share the same prey preference with the so called top predators in their environment. Or are only terrestrian mammals allowed? edit: Aye, i should've read the initial post more then once....ok, forget my last question and my vote^^ In that case, i'm undecided at the moment...
My vote, as far as large terrestrial mammalian predators go would be the grey wolf. How often do they fail in a hunt? -not very.
Spotted Hyena
The spotted hyena is Africa's most common large predator with a population estimated at about 40.000 individuals They livie in clans of up to 90 members which is largest of all land carnivores, the bigger females can reach weight's up to 90 kg (200 lbs) and they dominate the clan, not even the highest ranked male is ranked higher than the lowest ranked female. the spotted hyena has the most powerful bite of all land living carnivores.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Spotted hyenas where before looked at as a coward and a scavenger, but now it's regarded as an excellent hunter of it's own, and in some places said to kill 90% of it's own prey. common prey is medium to large sized mammals like: wildebeest, zebra, impala and Buffalo. they do also scavenge food food from leopards, cheetah's, wild dog's and in large even lions. Hyena is said to be able to eat 13-18 kg in one meal, and they eat and consume everything from, bones, skin  *This image is copyright of its original author , fur and yes even horns from their prey. a hyena clan has been observed to eat an entire 250 kg Zebra in 25 minutes. so there wil alwas be competition for the best places around the carcass, and the most dominant individual will decide where it eat's.  *This image is copyright of its original author hyenas which has killed a buffalo. Impressive video of hyenas killing a large buffalo bull  *This image is copyright of its original author Hyena ready to take*This image is copyright of its original author on cheetah's to steal their kills. hyenas have the most protein rich milk (14,9%) of all land living carnivores, and also the most fat rich (14,1) only beaten by the sea otter and polar bear, hyenas are born thru their mothers pseudo penis, which the first time will be very painful for the female. they are born big the size of a lion cub. and are born in litters from 1-3, most common it's one or two. they will be lactating until they are around 1,5 year's old. [/size]  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author hyena with her cubs The territorial size of spotted hyenas will vary from 40 km2 in Ngorongoron Crater, to over 1000 km2 in the Kalahari dessert. and hyenas will almost everywhere the live be in constant conflict with lions which are the only real threat to a hyena clan. lions and hyenas will kill each other's cubs and old/sick ones, but lions especially males will kill adult hyenas given the chance these two spices hate each other, because they are competing for the same prey. and they will both also steal the others prey. these battles are very famous and some of the, if not the most intense battles between two carnivores.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Spotted hyenas does also pose a threat to other carnivores themselves such as jackals, wild dogs, Leopards and cheetah's, by killing their cubs and stealing their prey. even adults if they are not careful also the brown and striped hyenas will also come into conflict with their larger cousin.  *This image is copyright of its original author Hyena eat's a leopard kill.  *This image is copyright of its original author two hyenas has grabed a young wild dog.  *This image is copyright of its original author Spotted hyena chasing a Brown hyena. hyena killing golden Jackal.
My Vote Definitely goes to the Wolf Pack if we are talking about a collective unitElk are the preferred prey of wolves in Yellowstone. And USU wildland resources assistant professor Dan MacNulty says the reintroduced predators will go out of their way to find their favorite food — and it may not be a matter of taste, but rather their own safety.But when a pack of wolves is large enough and the conditions are right, the canines will turn their attention to bison."Elk are smaller and they aren't as aggressive as bison," MacNulty said. "The odds of a successful elk kill are three times higher than with an encounter with bison."An earlier study MacNulty worked on noted that wolves in groups of more than four tend to hold back when pursuing elk and let others take the risk of injury during the hunt."Given a choice, wolves will stay out of harm's way until it's safe to enjoy the spoils of the hunt," he said.But when wolf packs hunt Yellowstone bison, the group typically involves nine to 13 canines cooperating in the effort. Even then, a kill is not always the result.MacNulty says some of the largest Yellowstone wolves are about 140 pounds. Elk run up to 700 pounds and a bull bison can easily weigh more than twice that — up to a ton."The data we're collecting on wolf hunts is helping us understand how wolf pack size, bison herd size and environmental conditions affect wolves' ability to successfully hunt bison," said Aimee Tallian, a USU doctoral student working on the study.MacNulty was camped in the Pelican Valley on St. Patrick's Day 1999 when the group he was with watched what was the first recorded observation of wolves successfully hunting adult bison in Yellowstone after their reintroduction to the ecosystem, perhaps for the first time in 60 years.At dawn that March morning. the researchers were posted at an observation point within sight of a group of about 35 bison staying warm in a large geothermal area. Ten or 12 wolves from the Mollie's Pack were spotted on the fringe of the herd."It started kind of calmly as the wolves harassed a few individuals standing on the outskirts of the bare ground," MacNulty said. "As time wore on, the bison were getting agitated and antsy to move on."In the winter months, bison seek places without snow. On open ground, bison are quite capable of defending themselves and will even fight as a group to stave off predators. That all changes in the deep snow of Yellowstone winters.MacNulty noted there were a series of bare ground patches in the valley, all linked with single track snow trails. Pressured by the presence of the wolves, the bison eventually headed for the trail and made their move to the next bare island.Marching single file, the bison at the end of the line had no opportunity to defend its backside and other bison could not turn to help.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/1815446-155/b...y-wolf-elk *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author There is no mamal safe from a large enough wolf pack, they hunt as a unit and possibly the best synchronized unit around. They will even confront the massive grizzly over kills "  *This image is copyright of its original author Don't Miss
 *This image is copyright of its original author JACKSON HOLE, WYO – Planet Jackson Hole came upon the “Wolves versus Bear” video that’s swiftly making the rounds on social media. It features a wolf pack chasing away a grizzly bear in the Mud Flats area of Grand Teton Nation Park. We were as astounded as anyone who has seen it. We decided to ask the experts exactly what was going on in the short interaction between the wolves and the bear.Are the wolves just messing with the griz? Is the bear afraid of the wolves? Does this kind of showdown happen very often and who would win if they got into it?Here’s what Steve Cain, chief biologist for Grand Teton NP; and Dan Stahler, Yellowstone wolf project biologist had to say after we showed them the video. STAHLER: While there is no obvious carcass, per se, in the shot, there are a fair number of ravens in backdrop that would indicate there is probably something around. This type of behavior you are seeing is what we would typically find if a carcass is present – both wolves and bears would be drawn to it. Adult bears, and that looked like an adult bear, will often take over a carcass and wolves usually back off feeling it’s not worth getting swatted over.Wolves and bears know each other’s behavior well enough that the wolves would feel comfortable darting in there and dancing back and forth without getting hit. What I’m interpreting here is there is probably carcass in the area and with some smaller wolves, pups-of-the-year around, well, then the adults are willing to escalate the situation and be more aggressive in driving the bear from the area.CAIN: I think what’s happened is the bear just happens to be traveling right through where a wolf pack was hanging out with pups-of-the-year. From what I can see, that pack is the Huckleberry Pack. You can see in the video – I’m watching it again now – when the bear starts to turn toward the wolves, the adults get excited and decide to escort it out of there. You can see one wolf has something in its mouth and with the ravens around you can assume there could be a food item involved.Toward the end of the video you’ll notice four or five wolves, all black, standing and watching and not participating. Those are all pups. The adults were on guard. Wolves will often attempt to make a concerted effort to move bears off a carcass, especially if the bear is not very big. Numbers help. This is a completely typical and expected reaction, though.STAHLER: We have a lot of data we haven’t worked up yet, so I don’t have a scientific answer as to whether more wolves betters their chances. But yes, when there are more wolves in a pack, I think that bolsters their confidence. We have seen that a group this size is very advantageous.You can see some wolf tails come up in the video. These are likely the dominant alpha adults. It’s kind of hard to tell size. It doesn’t look like a huge bear to me. Maybe a sub-adult male? The bear looks like he becomes easily distracted a few times wondering which wolf is going to come in and bite his ass. That nipping at a bear by a wolf is fairly common. He doesn’t look like he is interpreting the wolves as a real risk. You see him stop and hop and look at the wolves once or twice, and a couple of them run away. Those are the younger ones probably.CAIN: Since they are competitors for the same food items, they are always testing each other. You see one wolf charged right in there and bit the bear on the butt pretty good and that’s not uncommon. Right before they go into willows you can tell the bear just wanted out of there.STAHLER: Yeah, once the bear leaves and goes into willows the wolves’ postures change and they seem content that the bear is out of the way and the threat is removed. We have had wolves kill bears in Yellowstone. It is extremely rare and it’s usually cubs-of-the-year, but they don’t target bears as food."http://planetjh.com/2013/09/11/wolf-vs-bear-showdown/  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author A large enough pack will run off any grizzly but they need big numbers to do so. But the fact that they will even attempt it shows their bravery and tenacity. Edit: That video of the hyena attacking the Jackal pup shows how brave Jackals really are. The size difference between the hyena to the cub is similar to a Male lion to a hyena and no way are a pack of hyena trying so desperately to save another member from the grips of the Male lion but these jackals fight till the bitter end to protect their pup, even against two Hyena and their is only 5 or 6 of them. Must be a tough life for Jackals but cool to see such a tight nit family bond. |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 1 Guest(s) |