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Dholes (Cuon alpinus)

Finland Shadow Offline
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#91

(01-24-2019, 04:48 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support  it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought.

Quite possible that it happened, from time to time. But we are not talking about an encounter or two.
But dholes had (& still continue to do so after so many years) quite the reputation! That'd take a lot of exaggeration, by a lot of people, over a lot of time... Not to mention these kind of incidents were already rare.
This thread has whatever info currently available & more is welcome.

Because s last century had the species drastically diminished to the point of holding on by a thread, we don't really know what to expect or what could have happened hundred years ago. Atleast they're doing well now.

Best we have today is this sighting...



BTW, can any of you see any cub in the video?

Cub is there and it flees at 0:14 to that pile of wood/branches and one wild dog is following, but impossible to say if that cub got a safe place there or not. But I didn´t see it dragged at any point, so it might be still inside of that "fortress" in the end of this recording.
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Sanju Offline
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#92
( This post was last modified: 01-24-2019, 05:53 PM by Sanju )

What's the biggest hunt by Red dog Pack "recorded" with respect to Prey mass???

An Adult Bull gaur/ A Buffalo/ A Rhino??????
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United States Pckts Offline
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#93
( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 08:01 PM by Rishi )

(01-24-2019, 05:52 PM)Sanju Wrote: What's the biggest hunt by Red dog Pack "recorded" with respect to Prey mass???

An Adult Bull gaur/ A Buffalo/ A Rhino??????

I would of said a Sambar or Nilgai but @Rishi recently posted images off a young Bull Gaur running of a whole pack then quickly had the tables turned, had it not been for the rest of the herd coming in to help that Gaur may have been in deep trouble. At least that is what the account mentioned and if that's the case then I'd say it's very likely they are able to hunt adult Gaur as well if the pack size is right. But to my knowledge, that's the first anyone has seen of an attempt on a adult Gaur by Dholes, they certainly go after youngsters though.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-24-2019, 06:18 PM by Shadow )

(01-24-2019, 04:48 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support  it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought.

Quite possible that it happened, from time to time. But we are not talking about an encounter or two.
But dholes had (& still continue to do so after so many years) quite the reputation! That'd take a lot of exaggeration, by a lot of people, over a lot of time... Not to mention these kind of incidents were already rare.
This thread has whatever info currently available & more is welcome.

Because s last century had the species drastically diminished to the point of holding on by a thread, we don't really know what to expect or what could have happened hundred years ago. Atleast they're doing well now.

Best we have today is this sighting...



BTW, can any of you see any cub in the video?

Oh, that cub flees again at 0:39, some dogs after it.... maybe it made it maybe not...

And now of course in that description of video it was told that it fled to safety. I actually believe it because those dogs came back to lioness instead going after that cub. if some dog would have got it, for sure there would have been more going there to eat it behind that bush where it fled.
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Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-24-2019, 07:24 PM by Sanju )

@Pckts  I think Dhole "Clan" frequently live in 5 to 6 but there are incidents with 40 membered clan were also recorded. The social structure is similar to its extant relative Painted Dog "Pack" which can upto 100's like in South Africa's during Game migratory seasons. Though this canid is larger in proportions but hunting technique is same with its Asian counterpart.

So why do you think these dogs occasionally can hunt big game like Cape buffalo (adults very rare but still), Ostrich, Zebra and Wildebeest?

But why can't the biggest terror of the Jungle "The Dhole" which tiger too fear sometimes can't hunt big game like buffalo?

Any explanation why Serows are the only ungulate species effective against falling prey to dhole???
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United States Pckts Offline
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#96

@Sanju 
As often as Awd hunt capes is probably the equivalent to Dholes hunting Gaur, Water Buffalo or Banteg,
Neither hunts large bovine often.
But if the numbers were skewed in the AWD's direction you could say it has do with the low frequency in which dhole and large bovine live together in meaningful numbers.  
And while Dhole pack size can be high at times, more often they are smaller than AWD's pack size which means they'll hunt smaller prey with less mouth's to feed. But lastly is the comparative prey biomass they have at their disposal, Cape numbers are very high and their herds can be absolutely massive, not so with Gaur. Add to that the terrain of the East/South Africa compared to the Jungles of India, it's very different. Viewing things in Africa is far easier than India, you safari in Africa and you almost get bored with the amount of large herbivores you see while India, you cherish any sighting because they are more rare and fleeting. Animals that are there one minute slip off into the endless camouflage of the trees the next.
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smedz Offline
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#97

(01-24-2019, 04:48 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support  it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought.

Quite possible that it happened, from time to time. But we are not talking about an encounter or two.
But dholes had (& still continue to do so after so many years) quite the reputation! That'd take a lot of exaggeration, by a lot of people, over a lot of time... Not to mention these kind of incidents were already rare.
This thread has whatever info currently available & more is welcome.

Because s last century had the species drastically diminished to the point of holding on by a thread, we don't really know what to expect or what could have happened hundred years ago. Atleast they're doing well now.

Best we have today is this sighting...



BTW, can any of you see any cub in the video?
I can see the cub. But I really don't think there's any advantage in sacrificing several members in a pack to kill something. But quick question, how do I link a scientific study on here?
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Rishi Offline
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#98
( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 08:12 PM by Rishi )

(01-24-2019, 06:31 PM)Sanju Wrote: But why can't the biggest terror of the Jungle "The Dhole" which tiger too fear sometimes can't hunt big game like buffalo?

Any explanation why Serows are the only ungulate species effective against falling prey to dhole???

Serow aren't ungulates, you know...

Anyways larger packs packs prefer sambars which are larger than the usual serow or takin.

©Pinal Patel And Shaurya Shukla Source: Sanctuary Asia
A pack of 22 dholes implement a foolproof plan to subdue adult sambar stag at Nagzira Wildlife Sanctuary.

*This image is copyright of its original author

©Balaji Raghunandan Annamalai Tiger Reserve

*This image is copyright of its original author

Unfortunately today they don't exist in most parts with Nilgai.

Cheetals, pigs are for smaller packs, ±5 adults.
Source: saevus.in

*This image is copyright of its original author

©Nick Garbutt Pench Tiger Reserve.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Largest they have been known to do are gaurs. They prefer to go for the calves & adolescents naturally.

Kalakkad Mundanthurai Tiger Reserve.
https://www.dailythanthi.com/Districts/C...s-dogs.vpf

*This image is copyright of its original author

I once came across an image of dholes try to take down an adult, bull gaur. But the damned thing is cropped!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author

If any of you manage to find the whole original image then share it. http://www.newindianexpress.com/lifestyl...15932.html

I have serious doubt that they can go bigger than gaurs. They already hunt prey the size of tigers' .
But today's dhole-packs simply aren't large enough to take them on, nor have any reason to try so.
©Raghupathi K.V.

*This image is copyright of its original author

(No, although 20-25-30+ packs are far more common these days & the usual size up to between 10-20, but 40 strong packs still haven't been recorded anytime recently.)
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smedz Offline
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#99

(01-20-2019, 10:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: So, @Jimmy what actually is going on in this video. Its clear that dholes don't "hunt" the tiger. But nevertheless its clear its going something amazing. In seconds 42-49 is clearly visible how 2 dogs approach the tiger from behind. Feeling this,  tiger turn around sharply face to face with the dogs and they run back. But if tiger didn't turn around probably the dholes would bite him on hind legs... This a classical case of harassment and intimidation, while the purpose of this behavior is not very clear.





In order to understand what is going on we have to read some text from the book "NATURAL HISTORY OF THE MAMALIA OF INDIA AND CEYLON" (1877) of the famous British naturalist and hunter Robert Sterndale:


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


So, as we see @GuateGojira is quite right that in that video dholes DRIVE AWAY the tiger. Obviously such a behavior to drive a big animal is typical for the dholes. These smallish devilish dogs are capable to push the tiger out of some area they don't want the tiger to be by harassing and intimidating the giant cat. Its same as you are walking on the street and few small dogs are constantly following closely your petals so you have constantly to turn around and check are these creatures trying to bite you or not. Does dholes create in the tiger impression they want to bite him from behind or they really want to bite him is another question. 

The reason dholes want to drive a tiger out of some area could be that they have pups in this area or some other not very clear reasons, in same way as write  Sterndale they could displace tiger or leopard by constant harassment.


Robert Sterndale is kind of godfather of Rudyard Kipling. Exactly from his books and more especially from the book "SEONEE, OR CAMP LIFE ON THE SATPURA RANGE; A TALE OF INDIAN ADVENTURE Kypling got his knowledge of the Indian jungles. The term "Seonee cave" where Mawgli find his refuge with wolf family is taken from Sterndals book and many other details. 

Kipling, the genious with pipe and spectacles:


*This image is copyright of its original author



@peter , if you want to read the book Seonee, it can be find here in PDF:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924079586685/page/n53

"Natural history of Mammalia of India and Ceylon" from Sterndale could be found here:

https://archive.org/details/naturalhisto...r/page/240

Honestly, that tiger didn't look that intimidated to me. Sure it turned to face the dholes, but it seemed to be more like "buzz off" rather than a fight.
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Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 10:51 AM by Rishi )

This gaur has been attacked by a pack of wild dogs (Dhole). It obviously got away, but the gaur is left wounded and the dogs hungry.
https://www.jungledragon.com/image/26719...ality.html

*This image is copyright of its original author

Dhole pack trying to bring down an adolescent separated away from its pack.
http://www.indianaturewatch.net/

*This image is copyright of its original author

A dhole leader weighs its chances against the bull gaur challenging his pack, beside reservoir of Periyar Tiger Reserve, Kerala.
tripadvisor.com

*This image is copyright of its original author

23rd December 2012, the staff of the Tamil Nadu Forest Department found a dead young adult gaur on the boundary of the Anamalai Tiger Reserve in a tea plantation.  Curious to see what would happen if the carcass was left to nature, a camera-trap was set until 7th January 2013.
Full story: http://thepapyrus.in/index.php/the-gaur-...gourmands/

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Sanju Offline
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@Rishi What about water buffaloes? Did you find any info regarding attacks on buffaloes???

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 08:15 PM by Rishi )

(01-25-2019, 11:11 AM)Sanju Wrote: @Rishi What about water buffaloes? Did you find any info regarding attacks on buffaloes???

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Unlike central or south India, their number in north/east is still recovering... Water-buffalo (& rhino) too are present in good numbers at only a handful of reserves.
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Sanju Offline
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@Rishi

*This image is copyright of its original author
Blue- water buffalo total range (inc historic)

*This image is copyright of its original author


I mean rest of the range in south east Asian countries...??? any incidents of attacks?
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Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 12:03 PM by Rishi )

(01-25-2019, 11:40 AM)Sanju Wrote: @Rishi

*This image is copyright of its original author
Blue- water buffalo total range (inc historic)

*This image is copyright of its original author


I mean rest of the range in south east Asian countries...??? any incidents of attacks?

Almost all species are near extinct in almost all of Southeast Asia... Dholes in those parts don't form packs larger than half a dozen.
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Jimmy Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-25-2019, 04:34 PM by Jimmy )

(01-25-2019, 11:40 AM)Sanju Wrote: @Rishi

*This image is copyright of its original author
Blue- water buffalo total range (inc historic)

*This image is copyright of its original author


I mean rest of the range in south east Asian countries...??? any incidents of attacks?
The second map is somewhat misleading, there are no wild buffaloes in Bangladesh and north of Pakistan, also the central Indian region shows huge territory but buffaloes there are too few less than 40, the majority of buffaloes only live in Assam region, just a few some 50 individuals may be living in Thailand probably just handful in Vietnam. They are not that common species to form a prey base to dholes. And where buffaloes are present dholes are absent in majority of these places. Their habitat requirement is also somewhat different,
buffaloes are at home in flat open floodplains and sand banks - preffered habitat also for rhinos, swamp deer, and hog deer, which is a complete contrast to dholes secretive somewhat mountainous and forest dwelling habits, habitat also of gaur and sambar, I doubt they will muster courage for such a full view time consuming hunt in an open tiger country, besides buffaloes seem to posses a pretty good deterent in the form of their long horns that will keep them out of reach.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This footage is probably a close one, dingos on feral buffaloes of Australia out in the open



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