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Why captive Bengals are smaller than Wild Bengals?

India Hello Offline
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Sad  ( This post was last modified: 11-08-2019, 04:56 PM by Hello )

From my personal observation on many captive Bengals.Most of them were 380-400 lbs and 90-95 cm at shoulder height.We know that Wild Bengals are much larger on average and maximum than wild Siberians in shoulder height, total length,weight, Skull width and skull weight while captive Bengals are smaller than wild in every dimension.Why?
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India Hello Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-08-2019, 05:00 PM by Hello )

The wild ones mostly I've seen in videos are very large in size compared to jeeps.The largest and most impressive I've seen in videos and images are Wagdoh and KZT-083. I estimate them to 550-600 pounds.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-08-2019, 06:44 PM by Pckts )

I've only seen wild Bengals and captive "n. American " Tigers except for White Ones & the wild Tigers significantly outsized the captive ones. But I've seen very large captive ones as well, my guess would be that they are malnourished in the parks/zoo's you're saying have smaller ones.
I wish that I had Amurs closer to where I live because I'm curious as to what they actually look like compared to the Bengals I've seen.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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India Ashutosh Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-08-2019, 07:50 PM by Ashutosh )

Wild bengal tigers will not reach their optimum weight for a few more generations. The selective killing of big tigers and the subsequent passing on off genes of not-so-big tigers have kind of pushed the average weight down. But, over generations, if the prey base is kept at an optimal level, just like the indian rhinos are finally showing their actual size, so will the tigers. For the longest time average Indian Rhino was quoted at 2300 kilos, today kaziranga’s male rhinos weigh 2500-3300 kilos, with some exceptionally large ones exceeding the weight of 3300 kilos. This is also the case at Chitwan where rhinos are growing to huge sizes.

PS: Madla from Panna weighed at least 250 kilos (550 lb) and definitely more than that because the scale maxed out at that weight, which means he weighed more than 550 lb. Hairyfoot was bigger than Madla. From Kaziranga, the biggest tiger I have seen was Kzt024 and he was killed by another tiger!!! Bear in mind that 220 kilo tiger is commonplace today as the relocated ST1 (Rajour, he was poisoned at Sariska) to sariska weighed 220 kilos and he doesn’t even look that big.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-09-2019, 06:30 AM by Pckts )

@Hello 
Which Zoo's have you seen Captive Bengals at? 

@Ashutosh 
While I agree that Tigers have and still do suffer immensely, I do think some reserves that are protected now have cats that are back to their prime size.
I think Kanha and Bandhavgarh are perfect example's, their Tigers are massive.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
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(11-08-2019, 04:55 PM)Hello Wrote: From my personal observation on many captive Bengals.Most of them were 380-400 lbs and 90-95 cm at shoulder height.We know that Wild Bengals are much larger on average and maximum than wild Siberians in shoulder height, total length,weight, Skull width and skull weight while captive Bengals are smaller than wild in every dimension.Why?

The observation you have made may strictly be a result of the conditions of captivity in third world countries.

Many countries in Asia can't afford the same type of medical care or nutritional supplementation that you will see in western zoos. So the size disparity can be a result of that.

I've seen reports of lions too from zoos in Asia, and a lot of the lions too aren't very big in those zoos either
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United Kingdom Dennis Offline
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I have seen a post from peter regarding this topic. Bengal tigers get smaller/bigger relative to competition (use it or lose it). Bengal tigers as peter says, were smaller a century ago than currently, that is due to the increase of tiger densities because tigers have no place to go in the wild nowadays, and are forced to fight (fighting frequency is higher). In tiger fights, size is a huge factor in who wins in fights, so larger bengals tend to make it to adulthood to reproduce. Wild Bengal tigers also grow throughout their lifetime.
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India Hello Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-09-2019, 03:09 PM by Hello )

(11-09-2019, 12:09 AM)Pckts Wrote: @Hello 
Which Zoo's have you seen Captive Bengals at? 

@Ashutosh 
While I agree that Tigers have and still do suffer immensely, I do think some reserves that are protected now have cats that are back to their prime size.
I think Kanha and Bandhavgarh are perfect example's, their Tigers are massive.

Mysore zoo which works under WAZA,Trivandrum zoo,National zoo in Delhi,.Its a misconception that animals in Indian zoos are malnourished.Here cats and other animals are well fed and most of them has lived more than 18 years.Here is a video which shows how Indian zoos look like.



As you can see the Bengal looks small about 360-370 lbs(guess) and it is the only zoo in India which has African lions.The African looked bigger about 400 lbs



The male in left cage is 16 years old and right one 12.My guess they are around 380-400 lbs
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United States Roflcopters Online
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It’s a combination of things, environment and surrounding are two of the biggest factors. for example, if those specimens were from the wild. a lot of us would have mistaken them for females or young sub-adults. they’re definitely nowhere near their wild cousins. in the wild, a tiger generally can do a lot better in the summer seasons and even then we see a few tigers that don’t retain their overall body-mass that they would normally have in the spring, fall or winter. Sangam from Kanha for example was skin and bones in the summer, the same male in any other season was considerably a lot bulkier. in the wild, they have the luxury to go and explore. plenty of water bodies for them to go around. in captivity, options are very limited and summer in India is generally very brutal. which puts them at a significant disadvantage, also remember tigers position themselves according to their environment. another example, T24 aka Ustaad of Ranthambore. when he was in the wild, he weighed 240kg on a 250kg capacity scale. same male in captivity was just a little over 200kg, 215kg to be exact. my friend who recently saw him thought he would be lucky if he weighed over 200kg now. 

Key factors

- size of the enclosure.
- background knowledge, what region the tiger came from.
- food intake but it’s not a decisive factor.



what’s your take on this @Rishi @peter @Pckts
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-11-2019, 01:24 PM by Rishi )

(11-10-2019, 05:17 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: It’s a combination of things, environment and surrounding are two of the biggest factors. for example, if those specimens were from the wild. a lot of us would have mistaken them for females or young sub-adults. they’re definitely nowhere near their wild cousins. in the wild, a tiger generally can do a lot better in the summer seasons and even then we see a few tigers that don’t retain their overall body-mass that they would normally have in the spring, fall or winter. Sangam from Kanha for example was skin and bones in the summer, the same male in any other season was considerably a lot bulkier. in the wild, they have the luxury to go and explore. plenty of water bodies for them to go around. in captivity, options are very limited and summer in India is generally very brutal. which puts them at a significant disadvantage, also remember tigers position themselves according to their environment. another example, T24 aka Ustaad of Ranthambore. when he was in the wild, he weighed 240kg on a 250kg capacity scale. same male in captivity was just a little over 200kg, 215kg to be exact. my friend who recently saw him thought he would be lucky if he weighed over 200kg now. 

Key factors

- size of the enclosure.
- background knowledge, what region the tiger came from.
- food intake but it’s not a decisive factor.



what’s your take on this @Rishi @peter @Pckts

I know in Indian zoos they're fed 10 kg of meat everyday and are starved one day of the week, usually thursdays.
Is that low?.. Most tigers I have seen in Indian Zoos(& I've seen many, every city I've been in) are often quite large but always skinny. Because every one of them is fed the same amount, the smaller ones get fat. 

Our zoos don't yet have the standard practice to provide them enrichment or exercise. So it could be the deliberately and underfeed him to avoid obesity.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United States Pckts Offline
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(11-10-2019, 11:30 AM)deftcat Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 02:46 PM)Hello Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 12:09 AM)Pckts Wrote: @Hello 
Which Zoo's have you seen Captive Bengals at? 

@Ashutosh 
While I agree that Tigers have and still do suffer immensely, I do think some reserves that are protected now have cats that are back to their prime size.
I think Kanha and Bandhavgarh are perfect example's, their Tigers are massive.

Mysore zoo which works under WAZA,Trivandrum zoo,National zoo in Delhi,.Its a misconception that animals in Indian zoos are malnourished.Here cats and other animals are well fed and most of them has lived more than 18 years.Here is a video which shows how Indian zoos look like.



As you can see the Bengal looks small about 360-370 lbs(guess) and it is the only zoo in India which has African lions.The African looked bigger about 400 lbs



The male in left cage is 16 years old and right one 12.My guess they are around 380-400 lbs

The circus cats are the healthiest from what trainers said, they're healthier than captive cats and wild, living over 20 years many times.
No captive cat will be healthier than a wild cat. They may live longer but that's not because of health but more so to do with the natural threats that come with living in the wild. You can take any wild cat cub and bring it to captivity and it will easily live just as long, probably longer but what kind of life will it actually live?
Circus cats like all other captive cats spend hours in cages and if they're part of traveling circuses, then they also spend hours on the road. A perfect example is BJWT, his circus rescues are always smaller and in worse condition than his hand raised cats.
To compare any captive cat,  circus or zoo to a wild cat is to compare apples to oranges. On top of a wild cat being physically superior they also will be mentally superior. A big cat is meant to hunt not do tricks. They live by survival of the fittest, new genes come in and add another superior quality and this repeats itself time and time again. In captivity there is no superior genes being introduced and this is why you see far more defects in captivity.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States tigerluver Online
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#12

(11-10-2019, 05:17 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: It’s a combination of things, environment and surrounding are two of the biggest factors. for example, if those specimens were from the wild. a lot of us would have mistaken them for females or young sub-adults. they’re definitely nowhere near their wild cousins. in the wild, a tiger generally can do a lot better in the summer seasons and even then we see a few tigers that don’t retain their overall body-mass that they would normally have in the spring, fall or winter. Sangam from Kanha for example was skin and bones in the summer, the same male in any other season was considerably a lot bulkier. in the wild, they have the luxury to go and explore. plenty of water bodies for them to go around. in captivity, options are very limited and summer in India is generally very brutal. which puts them at a significant disadvantage, also remember tigers position themselves according to their environment. another example, T24 aka Ustaad of Ranthambore. when he was in the wild, he weighed 240kg on a 250kg capacity scale. same male in captivity was just a little over 200kg, 215kg to be exact. my friend who recently saw him thought he would be lucky if he weighed over 200kg now. 

Key factors

- size of the enclosure.
- background knowledge, what region the tiger came from.
- food intake but it’s not a decisive factor.



what’s your take on this @Rishi @peter @Pckts


This is very important information for mass estimation in fossils as well. Most of our estimations are based on captive specimens which it seems for their frame are much lighter than a wild animal. In that sense, most of our estimations must be underestimations.

Also on Ustaad, his Wikipedia articles claims he weighed 258 kg in 2015. Is this verifiable somewhere?
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India Rishi Offline
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(11-11-2019, 12:26 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Also on Ustaad, his Wikipedia articles claims he weighed 258 kg in 2015. Is this verifiable somewhere?

No. No citation was provided. I've searched & found nothing.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 11-11-2019, 11:44 AM by Shadow )

I deleted some latest postings (3), @Roberto your posting had nothing to do with this thread really, when discussion is about physical differences between wild and captive Bengal tigers. @Dennis when you reply to someone try to have something to say there. As a new poster if you think, that someone else know nothing about certain animals, have some reasoning for your own opinion too.

When talking about healthiness of captive tigers, matter isn´t something so simple as good and bad. When captive tigers are known to live longer than wild ones, of course it can be said, that in certain ways they are healthier than wild ones. Especially in places, where people really care and they get good medical care. 

It´s then again totally different thing, that do they live as tigers are meant to live and is their quality of life as it should be, no matter how good they are treated what comes to medical care. What is mental state of a big cat living in some enclosure etc. when comparing to wild ones living as they have been evolved to live.

In this there can be different opinions with different reasoning. Thread is about reasons why captive Bengal tigers are smaller than wild ones, focusing to reasons for that is the best way to keep things civilized.

@Roberto  since you were just in heated debate and breaking forum rules, you get now banned for 2 weeks since again putting posting with nothing to do with this thread really (also before this breaking rules more than once). Think if you really want to be here in future, if in this situation again, ban will be permanent @Kingtheropod  you were in that same debate with @Roberto and also breaking rules. Since you have been otherwise ok, no ban. But next time, when same kind of situation, report to mods, don´t do same yourself. This should be fair warning.
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India Hello Offline
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An another example is dreamworld australia gold coast.I've read somewhere They are purebred Bengals and most of them are under 420 pounds with largest named Sultan over 460 lbs.@peter also said most Bengals he saw were around 400 lbs and Siberians averaging from 500-530 lbs.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/australias-largest-female-tiger-reaches-dreamworld-t4202.html
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