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(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return80,
Regarding the Boneclones Siberian tiger skull replica, is that yours?
The way you include two measuring tapes in your measurements is excellent. You photographed the measuring tape from the back of the skull and front directly and then also included the 10 cm scale beside the skull under the skull give me an indirect way to measure this skull of another Siberian tiger named Altai from the Koln Zoo, Germany as we can see the photo below.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I wonder if you can take another shot of the Boneclones Siberian tiger skull replica with the same exact angle as the photo above. If you look closely, most people capture photos of big cat skulls with the nasal holes visible but the above photo didn't show visible nasal holes. Maybe to avoid photo angle distortion?
Hi johnny rex,
Thanks for your reply,this skull cast is still housed in a storage room which I could visit currently.So before my internship starts next week, I can take skull photo for you from a similar angle.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I have chosen the image that best matches the actual skull shape for you.Based on a 10cm scale at the bottom, I measured the approximate size of the skull using image measurement software. The greatest skull length measured by imaging is 423mm, which is much larger than the actual 378mm.
However, it should be noted that the distance of photography and the angle of the lens can have a significant impact on the imaging and related scale, so it can even reach up to 44cm GSL at approximate lens angles.
regarding the Koln Zoo skull,I have read the related report(<Two fatal tiger attacks in zoos>, DOI 10.1007/s00414-015-1216-0).
In Fig.2, they aligned the scale bar with the right side of Rostrum at the same position. We can use software roughly measure the Rostral breadth based on Fig.2, and the value I obtained is approximately 99mm, which seems to be consistent with the wound in Fig.1. If we substitute this data into Fig.3 again, the GSL obtained is approximately 345mm.
In my opinion, the size inferred from multiple reliable images may be closer to the actual size than the size inferred solely from Fig.3
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
In PER CHRISTIANSEN and JOHN M. HARRIS 2009(DOI: 10.1671/039.029.0314),They analyse 78 tiger skulls.To tigers,the nasal holes(Incisive foramina) is"not visible, or only anterior-most portion visible in dorsal view".So,may the most Tiger skulls didn't show visible nasal holes in dorsal view.
The Boneclones skull is somewhat special in some structural aspects, with a very short nasal bone ratio and the greatest length of nasal measured in straight line (see Ji H.mazák 2008)only 101.5mm,nasal middle line only 77.5mm.So its nasal holes are easily visible in the Dorsal view
You can also find this condition in the photos,the skull nasal frontal suture is not posterior to the level of the maximal frontal suture.(Generally speaking, this is common in most lion skulls, but not frequent in tiger skulls).
(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return,
Never saw this post. If you have info about skulls and bones, post it in 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'. Tell the mods you've permission to post there. If you have more photographs, please post them.
Hi peter,
Thanks for your friendly reply and suggestions!
I will post more skulls and related data during sparetime
(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return,
Never saw this post. If you have info about skulls and bones, post it in 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'. Tell the mods you've permission to post there. If you have more photographs, please post them.
Hi peter,
Thanks for your friendly reply and suggestions!
I will post more skulls and related data during sparetime
Appreciated, Saturn.
Wait until you can post in the tiger extinction thread in a few days from now. That thread has much more views, enabling more readers to take notice of the discussion.
03-01-2025, 01:58 PM( This post was last modified: 03-01-2025, 02:04 PM by johnny rex )
(02-27-2025, 02:19 PM)return 80 Wrote:
(02-25-2025, 01:48 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return80,
Regarding the Boneclones Siberian tiger skull replica, is that yours?
The way you include two measuring tapes in your measurements is excellent. You photographed the measuring tape from the back of the skull and front directly and then also included the 10 cm scale beside the skull under the skull give me an indirect way to measure this skull of another Siberian tiger named Altai from the Koln Zoo, Germany as we can see the photo below.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I wonder if you can take another shot of the Boneclones Siberian tiger skull replica with the same exact angle as the photo above. If you look closely, most people capture photos of big cat skulls with the nasal holes visible but the above photo didn't show visible nasal holes. Maybe to avoid photo angle distortion?
Hi johnny rex,
Thanks for your reply,this skull cast is still housed in a storage room which I could visit currently.So before my internship starts next week, I can take skull photo for you from a similar angle.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I have chosen the image that best matches the actual skull shape for you.Based on a 10cm scale at the bottom, I measured the approximate size of the skull using image measurement software. The greatest skull length measured by imaging is 423mm, which is much larger than the actual 378mm.
However, it should be noted that the distance of photography and the angle of the lens can have a significant impact on the imaging and related scale, so it can even reach up to 44cm GSL at approximate lens angles.
regarding the Koln Zoo skull,I have read the related report(<Two fatal tiger attacks in zoos>, DOI 10.1007/s00414-015-1216-0).
In Fig.2, they aligned the scale bar with the right side of Rostrum at the same position. We can use software roughly measure the Rostral breadth based on Fig.2, and the value I obtained is approximately 99mm, which seems to be consistent with the wound in Fig.1. If we substitute this data into Fig.3 again, the GSL obtained is approximately 345mm.
In my opinion, the size inferred from multiple reliable images may be closer to the actual size than the size inferred solely from Fig.3
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
In PER CHRISTIANSEN and JOHN M. HARRIS 2009(DOI: 10.1671/039.029.0314),They analyse 78 tiger skulls.To tigers,the nasal holes(Incisive foramina) is"not visible, or only anterior-most portion visible in dorsal view".So,may the most Tiger skulls didn't show visible nasal holes in dorsal view.
The Boneclones skull is somewhat special in some structural aspects, with a very short nasal bone ratio and the greatest length of nasal measured in straight line (see Ji H.mazák 2008)only 101.5mm,nasal middle line only 77.5mm.So its nasal holes are easily visible in the Dorsal view
You can also find this condition in the photos,the skull nasal frontal suture is not posterior to the level of the maximal frontal suture.(Generally speaking, this is common in most lion skulls, but not frequent in tiger skulls).
All the best
Thank you so much for the responses including the photo, return 80. I assumed the scale bar in Fig 3 is around 1 cm smaller like in your previous photo with both measuring tape and 10cm scale bar, therefore the real length and width is around 15 inches long and approximately 10 inches wide which is an average sized skull for Siberian tigers. But turns out to be 13-14 inches long according to your calculation. If I remembered correctly, Altai the Siberian tiger which is the owner of the skull in Fig 3 is just 4 years old when it was shot.
03-12-2025, 10:34 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2025, 11:05 AM by johnny rex )
(02-27-2025, 02:24 PM)return 80 Wrote:
(02-26-2025, 07:29 AM)peter Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return,
Never saw this post. If you have info about skulls and bones, post it in 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'. Tell the mods you've permission to post there. If you have more photographs, please post them.
Hi peter,
Thanks for your friendly reply and suggestions!
I will post more skulls and related data during sparetime
I just saw the huge wild Southern African lion skull you posted on On The Edge Of Extinction Lion forum but unfortunately I can't post anything there so I will comment here instead. Is that the largest wild Sub-Saharan African lion skull you personally known? What about those from old record books where the largest lion skull is at 419 mm long or that 16.5 inches long and 11.5 inches wide Lionzilla skull that I posted several years ago somewhere in this forum (here is the Lionzilla skull link https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...0#pid61650 , https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...0#pid62810 and https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...2#pid62812)? Anyway, the Lionzilla skull is not a real skull but a cast. Are there any mistakes in measurements when it comes to those skulls?
(01-17-2025, 03:46 PM)return 80 Wrote: Hello everyone, Wildfact Forum friends.
I am an enthusiast of vertebrate paleontology and a writer of online popular science articles. Recently, while conducting data analysis, I had the opportunity to measure the Siberian tiger skull cast of Boneclones. My friend suggested that I share some data on Wildfact, which may be of great interest to some Wildfact Forum.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I previously sent the data to another post, but it seems that it did not pass the auditing, so I am sharing the relevant data here. If there is any offense, I will delete this reply
11.mandible length (infradentale -middle of condyle) :237.5mm
12.mandible height before p3: 44.7mm
13.mandible height after m1:49.5mm
14. maximum crown length of P4: 33.8mm
15. maximum crown length of m1: 25.5mm
I used digital calipers and metal calipers for measurement, with 2-3 observers observing whether the measurements were aligned with the correct measurement points. Each data was measured more than 3 times. My measurement accuracy is 0.01mm, with a retention accuracy of 0.1mm. Measurement values exceeding 200mm will undergo accuracy calibration
*This image is copyright of its original author
Hi Return,
Never saw this post. If you have info about skulls and bones, post it in 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'. Tell the mods you've permission to post there. If you have more photographs, please post them.
Hi peter,
Thanks for your friendly reply and suggestions!
I will post more skulls and related data during sparetime
I just saw the huge wild Southern African lion skull you posted on On The Edge Of Extinction Lion forum but unfortunately I can't post anything there so I will comment here instead. Is that the largest wild Sub-Saharan African lion skull you personally known? What about those from old record books where the largest lion skull is at 419 mm long or that 16.5 inches long and 11.5 inches wide Lionzilla skull that I posted several years ago somewhere in this forum (here is the Lionzilla skull link https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...0#pid61650 , https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...0#pid62810 and https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...2#pid62812)? Anyway, the Lionzilla skull is not a real skull but a cast. Are there any mistakes in measurements when it comes to those skulls?
Hi Johnny rex,
Sorry for the delay, I didn't receive your message before. My friend reminded me, so I'm here to reply to some messages that I know.
1.The MVZ lion skull specimen
It (MVZ 117849)is the largest wild lion skull I have ever seen (or personally can confirm), although I have not measured its original specimen. But this digital scanning model was created based on the raw data from CT scans, so I believe its size and data should be correct.(In fact, many biomechanical and paleontological developmental researchs have used data from this specimen).
I obtained dozens of lion skulls from southern Africa from publications by zoologists, mainly from Roberts, Mazák, Hemmer, and some specimens from natural history museums in the United States, such as the Field Museum of Natural History.
Among the South African lion skulls I collected, there were 15 individuals with skull lengths exceeding 380mm (including only complete skulls), and the largest of them was the MVZ specimen.Although the MVZ specimen is the largest, objectively speaking, it is only slightly larger than other giant skulls.
But it's not the largest lion skull I know of, there are clearly larger records of captive lion skulls. To my knowledge, all lion skulls with Greatest skull length exceeding 408mm and Condylobasal length exceeding 355mm are captive individuals. Perhaps the zoologists who have measured the most lion skulls know the skulls of larger wild individuals.
There are many records of large skulls of captive lions. For example, in a recent research on the differences between lions and tigers, a lion skull had a Greatest Skull length of 409mm and a staggering Zygomatic Breadth of 306mm. Detailed information shows that this is a circus lion that died in 2023 and is a private specimen.(see DOI: 10.1111/zsc.12716 Supplementary materials)
2.Old Hunting Skull Record
In my opinion, these skull hunting data are not worth discussing. Because they are usually not all collected together, the measurement methods may also differ. For example, a very famous 17 inch skull in Delagua Bay (now Maputo Bay) was measured by zoologist (Heller) to be only 16 1/16 inches. It is very difficult to verify these old records.
In hunting records, you can even see lion skulls over 460mm in length, which can even rival the largest individual of P. atrox. However, this skull is now included in lion specimens in hunters' homes and cannot be examined.
And in my opinion, the skull comparison data that these hunting data can provide is only length and width, sometimes even only length, which is obviously not as rich as what zoologists measure. Therefore, when comparing skull size data, I usually exclude them and they can only be use as the reference materials.
There is a hunting record worth mentioning, Hemmer mentioned in his monograph on the classification of lion subspecies a lion skull from southeastern Africa, with a greatest skull length of 419mm.
This is the only large hunting skull record he cited.And he compared this record with the skull of the giant Azé cave lion at the 16th International Cave Bear and Lion Symposium about fifteen years ago, as if he thought it was a credible record.
Unfortunately, I have not read the original literature on this skull, perhaps there is more detailed information in the book(Haltenorth, T. & Trense, W.: Das Großwild der Erde und seine Trophäen.BLV, München 1956. )
3.The “lionzilla”skull
I have read your post about the giant lion cast, and it seems that it is indeed a very large skull. The yellow Amur tiger in one of the comparison pictures of Lionzilla and Amur tiger skulls you posted seems to be the Amur tiger skull of Boneclones. Therefore, its greatest skull length of 16.5 inches seems reasonable.Not long ago, I also observed another very large lion skull cast (BC-286) from Boneclones, but from the tooth details in the photo you provided, they should not be an individual.
If Lionzilla is a cast made based on the original skull size, then its size is indeed very large. I have observed the features of the skull in the photo you provided, and its zygoma, facial region, and neurocranium are very similar to those of a captive lion. Therefore, if we assume that this cast is made based on a 1:1 size captive lion skull, I think it is also possible.
For example, the 409mm × 306mm circus lion skull mentioned above. At the South African Museum, the skulls of some captive lions are almost over 380mm, with some individuals reaching up to 400mm. Therefore, it is possible that the original skull of Lionzilla could reach this size.
Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur
