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Wanhsien tiger ~

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#46

(09-07-2018, 11:52 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Face of between ancient Sunda tiger and Gigantopithecus by Roman Uchytel
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/gigantopithecus/


*This image is copyright of its original author


Gigantopithecus was the largest ape ever to exist and had significant weight advantage to the tiger.


*This image is copyright of its original author


It does look like a tigress, since a large male prehistoric Sunda tiger could apparently weigh over thousand pounds which was close to the size of the Giganto.
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#47

Yes, ar. 200-300 pounds advantage is not that crusual, taking into account that according wiki the maximum weight of giganto was 1300 pounds (600 kg).
Most probably gigantopithecuses were predominantly living on the ground since its hard to imagine an ape of half ton to climb on the trees. So living on ground level and surrounded by big predators these apes obviously were filling quite confident for their safety at least in the presence of the alpha male. Otherwise prehistoric Sunda tigers would wiped out all the specie.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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#48
( This post was last modified: 09-08-2018, 05:21 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(09-08-2018, 04:18 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Yes, ar. 200-300 pounds advantage is not that crusual, taking into account that according wiki the maximum weight of giganto was 1300 pounds (600 kg).
Most probably gigantopithecuses were predominantly living on the ground since its hard to imagine an ape of half ton to climb on the trees. So living on ground level and surrounded by big predators these apes obviously were filling quite confident for their safety at least in the presence of the alpha male. Otherwise prehistoric Sunda tigers would wiped out all the specie.


*This image is copyright of its original author


The morphology and life style of the Giganto were convergently evolved with the gorilla, not a tree dwelling species like its modern relative orangutan.

Assuming the clan of the Giganto had its own "Silverback" alpha male as the leader, and the other lesser Giganto like females and youngsters would probably assist their leader to fight off the tiger?

Since they cannot just leave their leader to fight the tiger alone, as if their leader getting badly injured or killed, it would simply allow the tiger to go rampage after the entire clan.

I think the largest Giganto males could probably weigh up to 1300-1500 pounds, and were the natural rival of the prehistoric tigers.
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GuateGojira Offline
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#49

It seems that Gigantopithecus was not that large as we popularly know. This link from Devianart present interesting information about the size of that large primate: https://www.deviantart.com/blazze92/art/...-456797219

Here is a reconstruction of bLAZZE92 of the  bones known of this primate:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The conversation is interesting and it seems tha the Gigantophitecus was just slightly larger than the largest gorillas.

What do you think? Confused
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#50
( This post was last modified: 09-08-2018, 11:13 AM by Wolverine )

If it was much smaller than 500 kg it will just not survive in tiger habitat I think.
I have red an opinion that if tropical forests of Africa are inhabited by tiger sized predator gorillas can not survive. Among leopards they succeed to survive but even such not so big cat could possess an extreme danger, more especially during the night when the majority of the primates are helpless and the cats are in their element. If theoretically we introduce tiger-sized predator in African forest gorillas have 3 choices - a.) they have to enlarge to Gigantopitechus size, b.) to get smaller like chimps and orangutans, guit the ground level and start to inhabit predominantly the crowns of the trees or c.) to be eaten out and disappear as a specie. 
Orangutan in tiger habitat preferred to flee away on the trees. It even prefer to drink a water without descending to the ground in order to avoid the tigers:


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#51

(09-08-2018, 09:42 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: It seems that Gigantopithecus was not that large as we popularly know. This link from Devianart present interesting information about the size of that large primate: https://www.deviantart.com/blazze92/art/...-456797219

Here is a reconstruction of bLAZZE92 of the  bones known of this primate:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The conversation is interesting and it seems tha the Gigantophitecus was just slightly larger than the largest gorillas.

What do you think? Confused

Hard to say, since many experts have neglected the fact that the Giganto was in fact a ground ape like the modern gorilla, and it most likely got a quadrupedal stance/knuckle walkers like the gorilla.

So the holotype of the Giganto shouldn't be exactly based on the organgutan, they merely belonged to the same subfamily, but they were not the exact same animals.

To reconstruct the Giganto based on the orangutan is like to reconstruct the tiger based on the clouded leopard.

I think these images should be accurate reconstruction of the Giganto; a robust gorilla-like body with an orangutan-like head, perhaps with red fur like the modern orangutan.



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
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#52
( This post was last modified: 09-08-2018, 01:03 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

(09-08-2018, 10:56 AM)Wolverine Wrote: If it was much smaller than 500 kg it will just not survive in tiger habitat I think.
I have red an opinion that if tropical forests of Africa are inhabited by tiger sized predator gorillas can not survive. Among leopards they succeed to survive but even such not so big cat could possess an extreme danger, more especially during the night when the majority of the primates are helpless and the cats are in their element. If theoretically we introduce tiger-sized predator in African forest gorillas have 3 choices - a.) they have to enlarge to Gigantopitechus size, b.) to get smaller like chimps and orangutans, guit the ground level and start to inhabit predominantly the crowns of the trees or c.) to be eaten out and disappear as a specie. 
Orangutan in tiger habitat preferred to flee away on the trees. It even prefer to drink a water without descending to the ground in order to avoid the tigers:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Since the Giganto had died off quite early, something like 100 kya, and by that time, the Homo sapiens had only barely migrated out Africa and were too sparsely populated in Asia.

And the Home erectus were getting close to the nightfall prior their extinction.

It was plausible that these two species of hominids in Asia didn't cause the downfall of the Giganto, since the human technologies of 100 kya or earlier were simply too primitive to tackle against the large animals.

Rather we could focus on another super predator that overlapped with the Giganto during the course of the Pleistocene Asia; the tiger.

The tigers had always managed to flourish in Asia, and could be the main threat for the Giganto.

If these tigers were modern sized which got outweighed by the Giganto 2:1 like the leopard to the gorilla, then the Giganto shouldn't have major problem to deal with them in most of circumstances.

However, the Pleistocene tigers were massive beasts with fearsome canine teeth and claws that could potentially annihilate a large bovid with a single bite, just look how the half-sized modern Bengal tigers used to deal with the gaurs.

Since the Giganto most likely couldn't outweigh the Pleistocene tiger by 2:1, but rather 50% at best, that's why they got troubled, and eventually got overhunted by those giant tigers.
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#53
Wink  ( This post was last modified: 09-09-2018, 05:49 AM by Wolverine )

(09-08-2018, 12:54 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Since the Giganto most likely couldn't outweigh the Pleistocene tiger by 2:1, but rather 50% at best, that's why they got troubled, and eventually got overhunted by those giant tigers.

Giganto and tigers co-existed for tens if not hundred of thousands of years in Asia and if assume that they were exterminated by tigers that mean evolution of tigers went faster, they got larger faster than gigantos who fell behind; think here important could be also some climate change.
Hunting of such of gigantic apes with colossal power (even gorilla is 8 times stronger than man) could be quite risky especialy during the day when whole herd is in alert. So probably attacks occurred during the night when primates vision is much inferior than the vision of big cats exactly in the absence of moon, similar as probably is doing modern leopard - approaching a sleeping female gorilla and making a neck bite on artery. Its same if I'm crawling from behind in the night towards my friend Rishi when he is napping and attack him with a knife (@Rishi forgive me budy it was only a joke  Lol ). Frontal attack on alpha giganto weighting half a ton and who probably was capable brake the neck of bull by snuffling it would be suicidal for the tiger.

Grizzlyclaws, since we have only lower jaw and teeth of giganto remained (at least as long as I know)  nobody cant say with certainty how looked like giganto - as gorilla or as giant orangutan. We need all skeleton and if it will be find that will be one of the grearest paleontological discoveries in all times. All Asiatic apes - gibbons and orangutans posess long arms, I will be not surprised if the span of both hands of giganto was ar. 5 meters - something like gigantic crab who can reach high branches of the trees from the ground.
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#54
( This post was last modified: 09-09-2018, 06:10 AM by Wolverine )

See how long are the arms of the Asiatic hominids:

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*This image is copyright of its original author
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GuateGojira Offline
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#55

It is weird for me to search information in Wikipedia, but to be honest, I am not a primate lover, so I nmade a fast research and incredible, the article in Wikipedia about Gigantophitecus DO show the two points of view about the size of this animal.

There is the point of view of the giant of 3 meters tall and 600 kg and also that of the large 2 meters tall and 300 kg (which is still larger than the biggest gorilla recorded).

Check the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus

However there is one document that got my attencion and is "Gigantopithecus blacki: a giant ape from the Pleistocene of Asia revisited." from Zhang & Harrison of 2017. It says that the estimated weight is between 204 - 280 kg, however they recognize that without any post-cranial remain, it is very hard to reconstruct its weight, but they believe that a weight between 200-300 kg will be accurate.
Here is the link of this paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf...ajpa.23150

I think That if this primate do measured 3 meters, a weight of at least 400 kg will be correct and for a male of 2 or more meters tall a 300 kg will be accurate, but that depend of what type of animal it was: orangutan, gorilla, baboon or dryopithicine member, check this:

"According to Ciochon et al. (1990), Gigantopithecus blacki was 10 feet tall and weighed 1,200 pounds. This is speculative, since it is with some uncertainty that one reconstructs such a massive creature from a few jaw bones and teeth, however many. The way they arrived at this picture was first to estimate the size of the head from the jaw, and then to use a head/body ratio of 1:6.5 in order to determine the body size. For comparison they cite a head/body ratio of 1:8 for the Australopithecus afarensis specimen known as 'Lucy'. The more conservative ratio for Gigantopithecus was arrived at out of consideration of the massive jaw as an adaptation to the mastication of fibrous plant matter (probably bamboo). Gigantopithecus was probably proportionally a markedly big jawed creature. For the head shape they based their assumptions on the orangutan, since evolutionarily they place Gigantopithecus on the same line as the orangutan, finding a common ancestor for them both in Sivapithecus. However, the orangutan could not serve as a model for the body, since it is unlikely that a 1,200 pound ape would be as arboreal. Therefore they chose the largest primates known, the gorilla and the extinct giant baboon Theropithecus oswaldi, as their models for the body. They gave Gigantopithecus an intermembral index 108 (gorilla at 120 + Theropithecus at 95 divide by 2 = 108 rounded up - very scientific!) (Ciochon et al., 1990)."

Also in the same article:
"Elwyn L. Simons and Peter C. Ettel (1970) paint a somewhat different picture. They trace Gigantopithecus back to a dryopithicine origin and their corresponding reconstruction is essentially a giant gorilla, 9 feet tall, weighing 600 pounds. It is not nearly as attractive as the giant orangutan/gorilla cross created by Ciochon et al. and Bill Munn (1990)."

Link for the entire article: http://eric.pettifor.org/gigantopithecus

So I think that before to choose a side, it will be important if we can check both sides of the story, because this animal present a complicated case: a "big" animal with very few fossils, and all from theeth and a little mandible fragment with no apparent living relatives.

Read all these and tell me what do you think. Remember that based in the currect fossils of Panthera tigris acutidens, published in documents (this means, discarting the huge fossil skull that is un-published), this crono-subspecies of tiger weighed less than 300 kg, which will put the tiger and the Gigantophitecus in a 1/1.1 relation between predator and prey.


*This image is copyright of its original author


This old comparison was reconstructed from the few long bones and dentition recorded in China, but at least in this case, we have modern tigers directly related with the fossills, so a reconstruction is easier and more reliable.

Tell me your toughts about all this.
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#56

The Giganto were also known of living in Southeast Asia where the prehistoric Sunda tigers resided.

I am thinking those 400+ kg specimens were very likely posed a threat toward the Giganto.
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GuateGojira Offline
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#57

To be honest, I think that even at double of the weight (260 kg againts 500 kg), tigers are a treath to any giant primate. If not, check some cases of leopards of 50-60 kg hunting an killing gorillas of 130 - 140 kg, which is the weight of a young male gorilla, a "black back".
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#58
( This post was last modified: 09-09-2018, 11:31 AM by Wolverine )

Excuse me guys but I think that main reason for the extinction of giganto was a climate change. Probably the giant ape was narrowly specialized on bamboo (or some other plant) as food so when due to changed natural conditions (precipitation, temperatures etc.) bamboo in big areas of Asia ceased to grow and in result highly dependable on this plants giganto disappeared. Same will happen now with giant panda if you destroy all the bamboo in Chinese mountains, panda just cant eat and her stomach digest anything else than this plant. This is the price of too narrow food specialization.
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GuateGojira Offline
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#59

(09-09-2018, 11:30 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Excuse me guys but I think that main reason for the extinction of giganto was a climate change. Probably the giant ape was narrowly specialized on bamboo (or some other plant) as food so when due to changed natural conditions (precipitation, temperatures etc.) bamboo in big areas of Asia ceased to grow and in result highly dependable on this plants giganto disappeared. Same will happen now with giant panda if you destroy all the bamboo in Chinese mountains, panda just cant eat and her stomach digest anything else than this plant. This is the price of too narrow food specialization.

To be honest, I don't touched the point about why the Gigantophitecus got extint. Surelly this big primate was prey of tigers, but I also don't think that it was the main reason of its extinction. Climate change must be the real season, just like you say. In fact, if the Gigantophitecus was larger or smaller is irrelevant, I think that even when the jungles of China and South East Asia were full of tigers, the great cat evolved to prey ungulates like deer, boar and wild cattle. Primates are not a main prey of tigers in any part of Asia. Also, the Giganto probably had some type of predation avoidence strategy, probably an especial one for great cats.

So, why the great apes got extinct and the great cats, deers, boars and smaller apes survived? I think that you made the correct answer. I don´t know the probable date of extinction of the Gigantophitecus, but also we must remember the great Toba eruption at about 75,000 years ago, that could be a main reason of extinction, for many other species.
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#60
( This post was last modified: 09-10-2018, 12:10 PM by Wolverine )

(09-09-2018, 10:44 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: To be honest, I think that even at double of the weight (260 kg againts 500 kg), tigers are a treath to any giant primate. If not, check some cases of leopards of 50-60 kg hunting an killing gorillas of 130 - 140 kg, which is the weight of a young male gorilla, a "black back".

This is really fascinating question. Here we have to take into account that hominids don't posses deadly sharp claws (as the big cats), but in same time beside their gigantic physical power they have also huge canine teeth and very powerful bite. Canine teeth of gorilla are 5 cm long, same size as the lion's. The canines of the primates are created not so much to cut pieces of meat as the cats, but to make deep painful wounds in order to change the mind of the predator. Bite force of gorilla is one of the strongest in the animal kingdom:
http://thechive.com/2015/09/17/the-stron...25-photos/


*This image is copyright of its original author


Orangutan:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Probably few predators like to connect with the primates, they are bad tempered, evilish creatures. And also of course hominids are much smarter than big cats.


I was also inclined to think that big cat can kill a primate up to 2 times larger then itself. But see, if this ratio is right and if giganto weighted only 300 kg (650 pounds) it can not survive and exist in the nature among tigers... But we know for certainty that gigantopitechus existed  Lol . So obviously the first version you mentioned - it weighted up to 600 kg (1300 pounds) or more is the only possible. And actually if I'm not wrong this version is latest (from 1990) while the version that it weighted only 300 kg is earlier (from 1970) so normally the latest scientific versions are more updated. 
Despite some historical tigers had probably the largest size and linear dimentions among all cats I personally doubt that any historical tiger subspecie had a max weight more than 400 kg. Only smilodon populator and some northern cave lions probably were weighting more than 400 kg due to their more robust body structure, but this is another question.
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