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The New Differences Between the Brutality of Man and Animals Thread

United States BA0701 Offline
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#1

@Cath2020 we can continue our conversation here, if you'd like. Perhaps we can get others involved as well, without flooding the Timbavati thread with OT banter. As I mentioned there, I do not blame you for the thoughts you have on the subject, as I agree with you on most of them, I just happen to believe that humans are much more brutal and cruel than what we see in apex predator behavior.

As for the compassion in people you spoke of, I'd say that also seems to be slowly eroding, something I blame in large part on the interwebs. One of the main reasons I continue to believe that WildFact is like an oasis in the middle of the Internet, because our community is largely made up of caring compassionate people, who are, for the most part kind to one another as we discuss wildlife, our shared interest. Most other places on the web are the opposite of that, more a reflection of our society, where it seems to have become common place for people to literally break out their phone and video record another's suffering, as opposed to actually leaving the phone in their pocket and providing assistance to them. It didn't use to be that way. Why do they do this? Because they know that there are millions of people who will click the play button, and many of them will feel nothing by witnessing the pain and suffering of another, or the pain and suffering of an innocent creature. We are becoming numb to the brutality and violence that plagues our streets, and have become more inclined to accept it than to actually do our part to bring an end to it. As long as it isn't us, or our loved ones, then it is not our business, seems to be how so many people see things in society today. As opposed to wild lions and tigers, where such things are simply a part of their every day existence.

In the situation between the Mbiris and the Guernsey Male, if the Birmingham Pride would have been near by, witnessing the carnage, they would not have been phased by it in the slightest. That is the world they live in, and they see such violence every single day of their lives. I say violence, though I believe I may be guilty of anthropomorphism myself, in describing their behavior as violence, I am just not sure how else we should describe it when lions attack other lions or prey animals with such ferocity. I believe humans are becoming more like that, instead of separating ourselves further from it, in spite of it being in our very nature to know that it is wrong, in that they are no longer being affected by violence or suffering, and it is heartbreaking to witness the breakdown of society in this way, because it is ingrained in us, that such violence is wrong, and if it isn't it should be. If we don't do something soon, to turn ourselves around from our current trajectory, we could lose a very large and important part of what it means to be human. In spite of all of that, at the end of the day, regardless of where humans go, lions and tigers will not change in that regard, it will simply continue to be a part of being one of them, just as it is today. That is exactly why I believe such brutality in humans is so much worse.

I do, still, agree with your sentiments that the situation between the Mbiris and the Guernsey Male was extremely brutal and painful to watch, on many levels, I still have not watched it fully yet. It isn't, as you mentioned typical wild lion behavior, but for the most part it also isn't the first time any of us has seen such behavior out of wild lions, either. The 5th Majin, and oddly enough just a few hours later Kinky Tail, were both very similar to what happened to GM, minus the dragging around of the corpses of course. Mbiris dragging his corpse several KM away from the site of the original occurrence, and continuing to feed on it, over several days, is not something I recall ever hearing about before. Perhaps there is a like situation involving tigers, that I am unaware of, but I have never heard of that behavior in lions before.

That, in a nutshell, pretty much explains why I believe humans, in our current state, are more violent and brutal than wild lions. I'll be very interested in your thoughts, as well as those of others if they'd like to join in on the conversation, I'd like to hear from them as well.
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Bangladesh TheHyenid76 Offline
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#2

The behavior of wild animals (from the lion to the humble elephant shrew) MUST NOT be held according to human moral standards. Also, it is funny that we judge animals and use 'animals', 'dogs' or 'pigs' as an insult when in reality we are more often that not worse than them. Animals do certain behaviors (like infanticide) to survive and pass on their genes. We do not think twice before carpet bombing or killing people for absolutely no reason. IMO the biggest reason why the world is so rotten is because of our hypocrisy. 

Also @Spalea @BA0701 can y'all post on animals other than lions? Also I absolutely agree with @BA0701 saying that WildFact is one of the few or only sites on the Internet where people from all different backgrounds are united under one thing: Wildlife.
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United States BA0701 Offline
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#3
( This post was last modified: 04-04-2024, 05:38 AM by BA0701 )

(04-04-2024, 04:17 AM)TheHyenid76 Wrote: The behavior of wild animals (from the lion to the humble elephant shrew) MUST NOT be held according to human moral standards. Also, it is funny that we judge animals and use 'animals', 'dogs' or 'pigs' as an insult when in reality we are more often that not worse than them. Animals do certain behaviors (like infanticide) to survive and pass on their genes. We do not think twice before carpet bombing or killing people for absolutely no reason. IMO the biggest reason why the world is so rotten is because of our hypocrisy. 

Also @Spalea @BA0701 can y'all post on animals other than lions? Also I absolutely agree with @BA0701 saying that WildFact is one of the few or only sites on the Internet where people from all different backgrounds are united under one thing: Wildlife.

Yes, to me, Wildfact is an oasis in an otherwise often ugly and combative internet. It is the vision and creation of @peter  and @sanjay , and they should be commended for their efforts, not just for the animals they are bringing much needed attention to, but for all of us in this community, they are the ones responsible for bringing all of us together. Not to mention they are both very kind, thoughtful, and knowledgeable people.
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Duco Ndona Offline
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#4
( This post was last modified: 04-04-2024, 01:28 PM by Duco Ndona )

The incident with the Guernsey male wasnt that evil. It was just ruthless pragmatism. The Mbiris broke Guernseys back so he no longer was a threat. They were hungry so they needed to eat and with the disabled lion there, the Mbiris choose to eat him. However, its still dangerous to put an lion out of its missery the same way they would to a prey animal, so they started eating him at the back. The dragging of the corpse is also perfectly normal behavoir as lions move their kill all the time.
There was no intention of cruelity, just survival. Who knows how many warnings they gave and it can just as easily be argued that they spared him the ordeal of slowly starving to death for a few weeks before being eaten alive by hyenas etc anyway.

The pride would have looked at the incident as a relieve becouse a threat to their cubs was elliminated. Had it been one of their own that was killed, they would have looked at it with horror, and vowed not to let the same thing happen again. 

As for humans. We arent the enlightend beings that we pretent to be. Just animals running on instinct that put all of our stat points into social behavoir. 
But ultimately, we are still animals defending our territories and prides from perceived threats from rival outsiders. Its just that our territories became nations and rival nations and our prides became whatever ideology we identify with it and see as rivals. The only difference our so called superiour intelect makes is that we can now craft weapons to fight eachother easier, and invented more reasons to fight over. Some good, like freedom and protecting others. Others wrong, like racism, political extremism.
However, our morbid curiousity, another survival instinct, makes us broadcast these events from all over the world, into our living room. If a lion were to learn of all the lion violence that occurs world wide as it happen, he would be disturbed of his own kind too. In reality however, war and violence are far more rare for us than they are for animals.

But even with our perceived violence, this is nothing unknown in animals. Social animals that live in groups wage wars with eachother all the time. We know crows gather around their death with morbid curiousity and primates take great delight in torturing. Ducks engage in necrophilia and theft is pretty much universal.

However, I think its rather onesided to only look at the bad. If we want to discuss morality, we also need to look at the good.
Humans obviously do a lot of that. We have relieve operations for hunger, illness, war and pretty much every inconvinience imaginable. We also make peace with our neighbours and welcome them as our own and learn from our opposing ideologies in an attempt to understand and improve our own loves. Child rapists are universally hated and forgiveness universally praised. 

Even in animals we see this. Most animals are naturally pacifists, seeking violence only when no other option exists. We see animals running to eachothers resque at great risk of their own. Solitary animals striking friendships. Groups adopting the young of rival groups or sharing food with former enemies. Lions playing with impalas. Cows adopting leopards. Tigers enacting revenge on hunters. Dogs in general. The list goes on.. 

Offcource ultimately there is also the issue that we are comparing the outliers of one species we know a lot about with another species we still know nothing about. 
So while it is easy to find information on the most deranged serial killers humanity produced, we have no idea what a Dahmer style serial killer would even look like as a lion.
Nor can we tell the difference between a fight between two prides over food or mutual hatred. Circumstance also often forces these animals to be ruthless. So only in the rare times of prospherity and safety, we can see their kinder side.
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Bangladesh TheHyenid76 Offline
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#5

Although I agree with most of the points of this thread, guys lets not make this a human-bashing thread. It is us who can save these animals and many people are dedicating their entire lives to it. There are millions of people in this world, who have dedicated their lives to doing good. So sayings humans are the most vile creatures, is inherently wrong IMO.
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United States BA0701 Offline
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#6
( This post was last modified: 04-17-2024, 09:19 PM by BA0701 )

Ok, we shall start a new thread on this important topic, a discussion about the differences between the brutality of man and animals, and the impact one has on the other. In doing so we need to lay out some ground rules. WildFact has members of all religious, political, national, and economic backgrounds and beliefs, along with any others one might think of. By political, it is meant as it relates to any political party affiliation, ideology, movement, or social beliefs. We believe this is an important conversation to have, and everybody is welcome and encouraged to participate. Any time the topic of man enters a conversation, most certainly in a conversation also centered on wildlife of all types, a subject we all feel very strongly about or else we would not be here, it can generate strong feelings and emotions, and those feelings can often cloud our judgement with anger. Those strong and most often valid thoughts on the subject, can often lead us to direct that anger at a single particular group. This is not only wrong to do, but it also does not add positively to the discussion, and can alienate and discourage many of those who we would like to participate. We must all keep an open mind, and encourage all points of view on the matter.

Regardless of any affiliation any of us might have with one group or another, regardless of our own backgrounds or beliefs, there remains certain universal beliefs. I feel we can all agree that our world is currently in crisis, especially the Wild World, and the all of those problems have been brought upon our world by man. There is no single group, political, religious, or otherwise, who has caused it, they have all played their role in getting us to where we are, in every aspect. This must be taken into consideration during this conversation. As all groups were involved in putting our World on the current unsustainable trajectory, it is going to take positive ideas from them all, as well, to fix it. This thread is in no way to be used as a chance to spread hatred of mankind, we must keep in mind not all men are bad, or have ill intentions towards the natural world, clearly, as we ourselves belong to this group. I do not believe that any members of WildFact wish harm upon our wildlife. To use a comment by @TheHyenid76 in the previous thread, who so succinctly stated "This is not a human bashing thread.", about sums it up.

We ask that everyone keep this in mind moving forward, and hopefully between all members of our very talented, knowledgeable, and helpful community, we can find solutions. We must all refrain from making this a conversation about which side is right or wrong, to do so would be unproductive, but instead hear everyone's thoughts and opinions with an open mind. We must keep the conversation civil, apolitical, respectful, and non-judgemental. This thread will be closely monitored, and should anyone make a post that disregards any of these rules, their post shall be deleted and a warning issued, any continued refusal to follow the rules, by the same member, will result in their being banned. 

I will be moving some of the well thought out posts from the previous thread, into this one, and I do hope for everyone's continued participation in the discussion, and that we might all encourage many others to join in as well, in a conversation that will, hopefully, remain positive and fruitful.
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Bangladesh TheHyenid76 Offline
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#7

I propose some rules for anyone wishing to participate:
  • DO NOT JUDGE ANIMAL BEHAVIOR ACCORDING TO HUMAN MORALS
  • DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE GET POLITICAL ESPECIALLY CERTAIN MODERN CONFLICTS
  • DO NOT BLAME ALL HUMANITY FOR THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS
ANYONE BREAKING THESE RULES SHOULD GET A ONE-WEEK BAN AND A PERMANENT ONE IF THEY BREAK THE SECOND RULE 
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United States BA0701 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-17-2024, 09:15 PM by BA0701 )

(04-17-2024, 07:34 PM)TheHyenid76 Wrote: I propose some rules for anyone wishing to participate:
  • DO NOT JUDGE ANIMAL BEHAVIOR ACCORDING TO HUMAN MORALS
  • DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE GET POLITICAL ESPECIALLY CERTAIN MODERN CONFLICTS
  • DO NOT BLAME ALL HUMANITY FOR THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS
ANYONE BREAKING THESE RULES SHOULD GET A ONE-WEEK BAN AND A PERMANENT ONE IF THEY BREAK THE SECOND RULE 

My friend, I believe that has all been covered in post #13, the first post of the new thread, and the first post directly above this most recent post of yours. Unfortunately, when I merged some of the posts from the original thread into this one, due to the date they were created, they ended up posted at the top. Hopefully that does not creat too much confusion, but I believe they were posts on point with the discussion, were well thought out, within the rules, and deserved to be read.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#9

@TheHyenid76 

About #5, you wrote and concluded:

" So sayings humans are the most vile creatures, is inherently wrong IMO. "

Just look at the way the world is heading now !
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