There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(04-19-2022, 07:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Do you have reports of Mr.T being submissive when he returned? I'd like to read them. Or if you don't, how do you know he was submissive?
I am pretty sure it was described that way by at some ranger's blog, probably Londolozi. I do not have it, nor I want to dig in for it.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: In the first fight against the Selatis, PB was getting attacked by them and the other 2 showed up and fought them off, keeping their territory, it's a Mapogo victory.
Keeping a territory? For a week or so? That is not really keeping it.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Didn't all others but Makhulu also followed the Mlowathis back in 2008 or 2009 to try to take over the Styx pride? Then the Mlowathis remained there after the fight and the others returned to the west. It's just a similar thing happening again.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
04-19-2022, 08:51 PM( This post was last modified: 04-19-2022, 08:53 PM by afortich )
(04-19-2022, 06:41 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 06:17 PM)Potato Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
The following 1 user Likes Tonpa's post:1 user Likes Tonpa's post • afortich
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Ok, it is reasonable to analyze it like you do because Nhlanguleni was not dethroned in that fight.
Actually, they don't know the reason for his disappearance days after he even recovered from the injuries, the speculation is that Makhulu brought the whole gang and kill him.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
With respect to the selatis in the first altercation, the selatis inflicted a big beating only to PB, who was caught alone. Then, selatis fled after getting a little beating from Mr. T and Mak at their arrival. Therefore, it is more reasonably to say that mapogos won said fight but a month later mapogos lost the territorial war.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
(04-19-2022, 07:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Do you have reports of Mr.T being submissive when he returned? I'd like to read them. Or if you don't, how do you know he was submissive?
I am pretty sure it was described that way by at some ranger's blog, probably Londolozi. I do not have it, nor I want to dig in for it.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: In the first fight against the Selatis, PB was getting attacked by them and the other 2 showed up and fought them off, keeping their territory, it's a Mapogo victory.
Keeping a territory? For a week or so? That is not really keeping it.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Didn't all others but Makhulu also followed the Mlowathis back in 2008 or 2009 to try to take over the Styx pride? Then the Mlowathis remained there after the fight and the others returned to the west. It's just a similar thing happening again.
Nothink like that has happened.
We're talking about who won that particular fight, the Mapogos did. They lost their territory because the Selatis attacked again IIRC 1 month later and then they won, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about the previous fight only, no one denies that the Selatis won the war and ousted the Mapogos in the end, but they lost that particular battle, they were ganging on one of the 3 in a takeover, and the other 2 showed up and kicked them out.
As for "nothing like that has happened", what is this video then?
The 5 younger Mapogos are attacking the Styx Pride apparently in the second half of 2008, same Styx Pride we know the two Mlowathi launched countless attacks against.
I don't know if it's exactly like how I described, but the video disproves the claim that "nothing like that ever happened" since well, it did.
04-20-2022, 07:05 AM( This post was last modified: 04-20-2022, 07:35 AM by afortich )
(04-20-2022, 06:06 AM)Abomai Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 02:29 AM)afortich Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 12:30 AM)Gabriele Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 08:54 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 08:51 PM)afortich Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 06:41 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 06:17 PM)Potato Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
Patrolling??? how if mapogos were new in that territory and were not dominant males. Mak simply sensed the scent of Nhlangulenin and followed it. Then, what started as a fight, ended up in mapogos taking the terrritory controlled by Nhlanguleni. Then, how do you call the ending result?? I imply that it was a fight over territory.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
Patrolling??? how if mapogos were new in that territory and were not dominant males. Mak simply sensed the scent of Nhlangulenin and followed it. Then, what started as a fight, ended up in mapogos taking the terrritory controlled by Nhlanguleni. Then, how do you call the ending result?? I imply that it was a fight over territory.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
Patrolling??? how if mapogos were new in that territory and were not dominant males. Mak simply sensed the scent of Nhlangulenin and followed it. Then, what started as a fight, ended up in mapogos taking the terrritory controlled by Nhlanguleni. Then, how do you call the ending result?? I imply that it was a fight over territory.
(04-19-2022, 06:17 PM)Potato Wrote: Nhlanguleni sustained far worst injurys hance he is considered looser of the fight.
That depends who would act subbmissive at the end of confrontation and what kind of injurys they would have sustain. It does't matter where Wide Nose would go after the confrontation.
But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
Patrolling??? how if mapogos were new in that territory and were not dominant males. Mak simply sensed the scent of Nhlangulenin and followed it. Then, what started as a fight, ended up in mapogos taking the terrritory controlled by Nhlanguleni. Then, how do you call the ending result?? I imply that it was a fight over territory.
