There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
08-23-2023, 05:26 AM( This post was last modified: 08-23-2023, 05:27 AM by peter )
(08-23-2023, 02:51 AM)Balam Wrote:
Urgent Concerns about Genetic Health in Jaguar Rewilding Project - Iberá Wetlands
I wanted to discuss a pressing matter regarding a rewilding project involving jaguars in the Iberá wetlands, Argentina. The project led by Rewilding Argentina has recently caught my attention due to some alarming genetic concerns that could impact the long-term viability of the jaguar population.
Background:
In this project, the sole adult male jaguar, known as Jatobazinho (Pantanal descent), was released alongside three females: Mariua and Juruna (sisters from the Amazon), and Arami (of Chacoan descent). What initially seemed like a promising rewilding endeavor has taken a troubling turn.
Inbreeding Crisis:
Jatobazinho has fathered offspring with each of the initial females and their female cubs, creating a situation of multiple generations of inbreeding. These repeated instances of inbreeding are concerning for several reasons:
1. Genetic Diversity: The population's genetic diversity is being severely compromised, increasing the risk of genetic health issues and reduced adaptability.
2. Inbreeding Depression: Inbreeding depression, which negatively affects fitness and reproductive success, becomes more likely as these inbred individuals reproduce.
3. Long-Term Viability: The population's ability to withstand disease outbreaks and environmental changes could be severely compromised.
Current Situation:
Currently, there are 17 jaguars in the area, of which only Mariua, Juruna, and Arami are not directly related to Jatobazinho. The introduction of one male named Colí, of Chacoan descent, is expected soon, but the question arises: Will this be enough to offset the extensive inbreeding?
Discussion and Action:
While the release of Colí could introduce new genetic diversity, the scale of inbreeding already observed necessitates serious consideration. Should we solely rely on Colí to mitigate these issues, or should we consider more drastic measures?
Your Thoughts:
I believe that the collective knowledge and insights of this community can help shed light on potential solutions. What do you all think about this situation? Is it ethical and responsible to keep Jatobazinho in the area, or should there be consideration of his removal to allow for a healthier genetic mix?
Let's engage in a constructive discussion about how to preserve the genetic health and long-term viability of these jaguars while ensuring the success of this rewilding project. Together, we can find solutions that balance conservation goals and ethical considerations.
Note: Information in this post is based on the current state of the rewilding project and aims to spark meaningful conversation about the best course of action moving forward.
BALAM
Interesting post. Appreciated.
Inbreeding was, and still is, a problem in some regions. In the first decades of the previous century, Amur tigers were almost hunted to extinction. They really walked the edge. As a result, a lot of genetic information was lost. Although Amur tigers, to an extent, recovered, diversity still is a problem. It was discussed in different articles. My advice is to visit the site of the WCS (the Siberian Tiger project) and the Amur Tiger Programme.
When you say Ngorogoro, you say inbreeding. Here's a link to an interesting article recently posted in one of the lion threads. I got it from one of our lion mods and will ask him who posted the link. Could have been from a new member. He really knows a few things about wild lions. Very interesting read:
Urgent Concerns about Genetic Health in Jaguar Rewilding Project - Iberá Wetlands
I wanted to discuss a pressing matter regarding a rewilding project involving jaguars in the Iberá wetlands, Argentina. The project led by Rewilding Argentina has recently caught my attention due to some alarming genetic concerns that could impact the long-term viability of the jaguar population.
Background:
In this project, the sole adult male jaguar, known as Jatobazinho (Pantanal descent), was released alongside three females: Mariua and Juruna (sisters from the Amazon), and Arami (of Chacoan descent). What initially seemed like a promising rewilding endeavor has taken a troubling turn.
Inbreeding Crisis:
Jatobazinho has fathered offspring with each of the initial females and their female cubs, creating a situation of multiple generations of inbreeding. These repeated instances of inbreeding are concerning for several reasons:
1. Genetic Diversity: The population's genetic diversity is being severely compromised, increasing the risk of genetic health issues and reduced adaptability.
2. Inbreeding Depression: Inbreeding depression, which negatively affects fitness and reproductive success, becomes more likely as these inbred individuals reproduce.
3. Long-Term Viability: The population's ability to withstand disease outbreaks and environmental changes could be severely compromised.
Current Situation:
Currently, there are 17 jaguars in the area, of which only Mariua, Juruna, and Arami are not directly related to Jatobazinho. The introduction of one male named Colí, of Chacoan descent, is expected soon, but the question arises: Will this be enough to offset the extensive inbreeding?
Discussion and Action:
While the release of Colí could introduce new genetic diversity, the scale of inbreeding already observed necessitates serious consideration. Should we solely rely on Colí to mitigate these issues, or should we consider more drastic measures?
Your Thoughts:
I believe that the collective knowledge and insights of this community can help shed light on potential solutions. What do you all think about this situation? Is it ethical and responsible to keep Jatobazinho in the area, or should there be consideration of his removal to allow for a healthier genetic mix?
Let's engage in a constructive discussion about how to preserve the genetic health and long-term viability of these jaguars while ensuring the success of this rewilding project. Together, we can find solutions that balance conservation goals and ethical considerations.
Note: Information in this post is based on the current state of the rewilding project and aims to spark meaningful conversation about the best course of action moving forward.
BALAM
Interesting post. Appreciated.
Inbreeding was, and still is, a problem in some regions. In the first decades of the previous century, Amur tigers were almost hunted to extinction. They really walked the edge. As a result, a lot of genetic information was lost. Although Amur tigers, to an extent, recovered, diversity still is a problem. It was discussed in different articles. My advice is to visit the site of the WCS (the Siberian Tiger project) and the Amur Tiger Programme.
When you say Ngorogoro, you say inbreeding. Here's a link to an interesting article recently posted in one of the lion threads. I got it from one of our lion mods and will ask him who posted the link. Could have been from a new member. He really knows a few things about wild lions. Very interesting read:
When you want to continue the discussion, my advice is to start a new thread. How about 'Inbreeding in wild big cats'?
Thanks Peter, I decided to make a post here after making one in my community following recent developments about new births being recorded but where the information about who the mothers of these new cubs are being purposely hidden by Rewilding Argentina as to not bring attention to the inbreeding situation, which I find problematic.
A few weeks ago I had a conversation with one of my mentors Velizar Simeonovski, who is a biologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, about this situation and I brought to his attention this paper: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2386196 by Craig Packer et al. done in 1991 which touched upon the issues of inbreeding with the crater lion population. Velizar stated that he thought the conclusion was not very strong because it was later found out that some lions did in fact migrate in and. out of the crater and some populations were hidden. This is something I want to look into further. He didn't think inbreeding would be much of an issue as long as the offspring survive their early years.
So I've been doing more research about this to try to get a better idea of how high levels of inbreeding can affect a population and it is clear that it is something extremely detrimental in the long run.
In this forum, the topic of the body size of tigers is an often debated subject, and I think that when it comes to tigers in the Amur Valley one issue that it's often overlooked is how fragmented their populations are and how this can potentially lead to higher levels of inbreeding compared to their Indian counterparts which are better conected through natural corridors and a bigger population. Inbreeding leads to a progressive decrease in size and lesser morphological fitness, among many other issues. This also seems to be the case with lions in Gujarat and West Africa (P. leo leo). It's clear to me that the morphology and size of these lions are far from ideal, especially when we read about their description in historical texts from places like Persia and India.
I find the way in which Rewilding Argentina has approached this reintroduction project to be very problematic because they seem to be more interested in the headlines the births generate without taking into consideration the ethical ramifications of creating an entire founding population with inbreds animals and potentially putting some of them through a life of hardships when/if genetic malformities begin to manifest.
Recently a group of biologists from Argentina published a paper criticizing Rewilding Argentina over many of their practices and it has turned into an ugly controversy within the scientific community in that country. I believe biologists should always be transparent and upfront about their projects and not become defensive whenever others bring up different points of view for the betterment of a project.
In the case of Amur tigers and Indian lions, the situation is more complex to solve because some biologists still treat those populations as intrinsically distinct from other areas and they aim to preserve the "original" stock without mixing it with animals from places like India or Africa, even if this could mean increasing their genetic viability. Other biologists do support this idea.
With the rewilding project in Iberá the issue is particularly frustrating because it never had to be this way. They should have included at least another male to mate the original three females with and to better manage the pairs before releasing them to decrease the inbreeding issue.
I understand that due to bureaucratic issues getting jaguars from surrounding countries into Argentina is a huge hassle, but they should have at least put the project on hold instead of going ahead with something so rushed that can end up backfiring later on.
We can certainly make a thread to discuss the issue of inbreeding in Felidae, although my area of expertise is mostly on jaguar populations, and some on puma populations like in the Everglades, perhaps other members can bring their own views when it comes to other big cat species?
The following 1 user Likes Balam's post:1 user Likes Balam's post • peter
Urgent Concerns about Genetic Health in Jaguar Rewilding Project - Iberá Wetlands
I wanted to discuss a pressing matter regarding a rewilding project involving jaguars in the Iberá wetlands, Argentina. The project led by Rewilding Argentina has recently caught my attention due to some alarming genetic concerns that could impact the long-term viability of the jaguar population.
Background:
In this project, the sole adult male jaguar, known as Jatobazinho (Pantanal descent), was released alongside three females: Mariua and Juruna (sisters from the Amazon), and Arami (of Chacoan descent). What initially seemed like a promising rewilding endeavor has taken a troubling turn.
Inbreeding Crisis:
Jatobazinho has fathered offspring with each of the initial females and their female cubs, creating a situation of multiple generations of inbreeding. These repeated instances of inbreeding are concerning for several reasons:
1. Genetic Diversity: The population's genetic diversity is being severely compromised, increasing the risk of genetic health issues and reduced adaptability.
2. Inbreeding Depression: Inbreeding depression, which negatively affects fitness and reproductive success, becomes more likely as these inbred individuals reproduce.
3. Long-Term Viability: The population's ability to withstand disease outbreaks and environmental changes could be severely compromised.
Current Situation:
Currently, there are 17 jaguars in the area, of which only Mariua, Juruna, and Arami are not directly related to Jatobazinho. The introduction of one male named Colí, of Chacoan descent, is expected soon, but the question arises: Will this be enough to offset the extensive inbreeding?
Discussion and Action:
While the release of Colí could introduce new genetic diversity, the scale of inbreeding already observed necessitates serious consideration. Should we solely rely on Colí to mitigate these issues, or should we consider more drastic measures?
Your Thoughts:
I believe that the collective knowledge and insights of this community can help shed light on potential solutions. What do you all think about this situation? Is it ethical and responsible to keep Jatobazinho in the area, or should there be consideration of his removal to allow for a healthier genetic mix?
Let's engage in a constructive discussion about how to preserve the genetic health and long-term viability of these jaguars while ensuring the success of this rewilding project. Together, we can find solutions that balance conservation goals and ethical considerations.
Note: Information in this post is based on the current state of the rewilding project and aims to spark meaningful conversation about the best course of action moving forward.
BALAM
Interesting post. Appreciated.
Inbreeding was, and still is, a problem in some regions. In the first decades of the previous century, Amur tigers were almost hunted to extinction. They really walked the edge. As a result, a lot of genetic information was lost. Although Amur tigers, to an extent, recovered, diversity still is a problem. It was discussed in different articles. My advice is to visit the site of the WCS (the Siberian Tiger project) and the Amur Tiger Programme.
When you say Ngorogoro, you say inbreeding. Here's a link to an interesting article recently posted in one of the lion threads. I got it from one of our lion mods and will ask him who posted the link. Could have been from a new member. He really knows a few things about wild lions. Very interesting read:
When you want to continue the discussion, my advice is to start a new thread. How about 'Inbreeding in wild big cats'?
Thanks Peter, I decided to make a post here after making one in my community following recent developments about new births being recorded but where the information about who the mothers of these new cubs are being purposely hidden by Rewilding Argentina as to not bring attention to the inbreeding situation, which I find problematic.
A few weeks ago I had a conversation with one of my mentors Velizar Simeonovski, who is a biologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, about this situation and I brought to his attention this paper: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2386196 by Craig Packer et al. done in 1991 which touched upon the issues of inbreeding with the crater lion population. Velizar stated that he thought the conclusion was not very strong because it was later found out that some lions did in fact migrate in and. out of the crater and some populations were hidden. This is something I want to look into further. He didn't think inbreeding would be much of an issue as long as the offspring survive their early years.
So I've been doing more research about this to try to get a better idea of how high levels of inbreeding can affect a population and it is clear that it is something extremely detrimental in the long run.
In this forum, the topic of the body size of tigers is an often debated subject, and I think that when it comes to tigers in the Amur Valley one issue that it's often overlooked is how fragmented their populations are and how this can potentially lead to higher levels of inbreeding compared to their Indian counterparts which are better conected through natural corridors and a bigger population. Inbreeding leads to a progressive decrease in size and lesser morphological fitness, among many other issues. This also seems to be the case with lions in Gujarat and West Africa (P. leo leo). It's clear to me that the morphology and size of these lions are far from ideal, especially when we read about their description in historical texts from places like Persia and India.
I find the way in which Rewilding Argentina has approached this reintroduction project to be very problematic because they seem to be more interested in the headlines the births generate without taking into consideration the ethical ramifications of creating an entire founding population with inbreds animals and potentially putting some of them through a life of hardships when/if genetic malformities begin to manifest.
Recently a group of biologists from Argentina published a paper criticizing Rewilding Argentina over many of their practices and it has turned into an ugly controversy within the scientific community in that country. I believe biologists should always be transparent and upfront about their projects and not become defensive whenever others bring up different points of view for the betterment of a project.
In the case of Amur tigers and Indian lions, the situation is more complex to solve because some biologists still treat those populations as intrinsically distinct from other areas and they aim to preserve the "original" stock without mixing it with animals from places like India or Africa, even if this could mean increasing their genetic viability. Other biologists do support this idea.
With the rewilding project in Iberá the issue is particularly frustrating because it never had to be this way. They should have included at least another male to mate the original three females with and to better manage the pairs before releasing them to decrease the inbreeding issue.
I understand that due to bureaucratic issues getting jaguars from surrounding countries into Argentina is a huge hassle, but they should have at least put the project on hold instead of going ahead with something so rushed that can end up backfiring later on.
We can certainly make a thread to discuss the issue of inbreeding in Felidae, although my area of expertise is mostly on jaguar populations, and some on puma populations like in the Everglades, perhaps other members can bring their own views when it comes to other big cat species?
My proposal is to give the new thread a try. The main reason is problems of this nature will increase in the near future. Fragmentation, a lack of corridors, poaching, animosity between biologists, politics and the ever increasing human population will have an effect on the natural world in general and apex predators in particular. Inbreeding is one of the most likely outcomes. It needs to be discussed and my guess is our members will be interested, if only because inbreeding has an effect on health and size.
Rewilding Argentina has shown us in video the jaguar no. 17 of Iberá which was born to one of the cubs released in 2021 and her father Jatobazinho, therefore through inbreeding.
So far the cub looks healthy and I don't notice any malformations which is good. The mother, who is a sub-adult female, is already an absolute tank. The prey base in Iberá is excellent so I expect this population to rival in time those of the southern Pantanal in dimensions and mass. Iberá is the jaguar version of the Ngorongoro crater for lions.
