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The Great Apes
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 (01-19-2020, 04:25 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one photo with Guhonda side by side with a tourist. Giving some idea about his size even though he isn´t standing on hind legs. Still in this camera angle it is good, that not giving any "benefits" to the man or the gorilla. Photo is from 2015.I always liked this photo, it gives good perspective of how tall he is at the shoulder, plus look at how high his head is too. Though Guhonda's silverback son might be slightly taller and longer than him, I think you may have seen my post with them both in the video. It might have just been their position making it look like that, but he did seem taller and longer than his father.
The huge Mwirima male crossing a river with his group, Bwindi Impenetrable National Park.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Big old Guhonda in the cold alpine meadows.
 *This image is copyright of its original author Guhonda is the oldest silverback in the wild at 48 years of age, and is also among the biggest gorillas alive wild or captive. He's a very experienced male, with over 30 years of being a silverback, which is impressive. He's lived through some of the harshest times for mountain gorillas, yet still made it to 48.  (01-21-2020, 12:30 PM)The Panther Wrote: o unless there's proof that these males are so full of gas to the point it inflates them this much, then there really is no denying the obvious size difference here, and we shouldn't discard potential weights beyond 250kg either. It makes a lot of sense for an old mountain gorilla to be built like this, after all, silverback mountain gorillas can live relatively sedentary lives for 20 to 30 years and only travel short distances when they eventually move. They also consume huge quantities of vegetation daily within that time, which should mean they would gain considerable amounts of weight by the time they reach their twilight years. So we just don't know to what extent extra gas adds to their size, but if it adds anything noticeable, then Shadow's version of it makes the most sense when you include obesity. I am agree in the obesity issue with @Shadow, but even then a figure of 250 kg seems to much, now that I saw that comparative image of Guhonda and the man. It will be good to know if is possible for a gorilla to be fat enoght to reach such sizes in the wild. We know in captivity, but in the wild? In the picture of the dead gorilla that I put we can see the huge chest girth of the specimen which is typical for herbivore animals that fermet its food. I will try to found the documentary when this biologist mentioned that the gas amount in gorillas is so huge that they bellies can litterary go flat if they stop eating.  (01-28-2020, 03:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(01-21-2020, 12:30 PM)The Panther Wrote: o unless there's proof that these males are so full of gas to the point it inflates them this much, then there really is no denying the obvious size difference here, and we shouldn't discard potential weights beyond 250kg either. It makes a lot of sense for an old mountain gorilla to be built like this, after all, silverback mountain gorillas can live relatively sedentary lives for 20 to 30 years and only travel short distances when they eventually move. They also consume huge quantities of vegetation daily within that time, which should mean they would gain considerable amounts of weight by the time they reach their twilight years. So we just don't know to what extent extra gas adds to their size, but if it adds anything noticeable, then Shadow's version of it makes the most sense when you include obesity. One good thing to notice, when talking about for instance Samson (USA) who was 296 kg in captivity. He was fed with hamburgers, bread and so on before his zookeeper understood that something was wrong and something had to be done. Back then many things were so differently, no wonder that Samson was so obese. (01-28-2020, 03:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:@GuateGojira(01-21-2020, 12:30 PM)The Panther Wrote: o unless there's proof that these males are so full of gas to the point it inflates them this much, then there really is no denying the obvious size difference here, and we shouldn't discard potential weights beyond 250kg either. It makes a lot of sense for an old mountain gorilla to be built like this, after all, silverback mountain gorillas can live relatively sedentary lives for 20 to 30 years and only travel short distances when they eventually move. They also consume huge quantities of vegetation daily within that time, which should mean they would gain considerable amounts of weight by the time they reach their twilight years. So we just don't know to what extent extra gas adds to their size, but if it adds anything noticeable, then Shadow's version of it makes the most sense when you include obesity. What did you expect him to look like there? The photo with the man in that position doesn't prove he weighs less than 250 kg, because all you see is his back not his entire body. Huge gorillas are mainly massive in stomach and chest girth, not just their back. That photo with the man gives a good idea of how tall Guhonda is at the shoulder but not his weight. Now, if you were expecting him to look a lot wider than that at over 250 kg, then you need to know that even the 296 kg Samson didn't look extremely wide for a near 300 kg gorilla, in fact even near 300 kg humans can look a lot wider than him. Samson was mainly massive in girth like I mentioned before, so it shows gorillas don't really grow extremely wide after significant weight gain but do so in girth. So that picture doesn't prove anything, unless you were expecting something greater from that position. The problem with the gas argument is that there's no proof that intestinal gas adds much to their size, and no their bellies don't go flat. So you can't act like that's the main reason for their bulk, when it's most likely due to decades of living that lifestyle. So if what you said was true, then many wild males would look as big as Guhonda or close, yet only some males are similar to him and they just happen to be old and experienced males just like him. I do believe mountain gorillas might have a 'slimmer period', mainly after leaving the Hagenia forest for the bamboo zone, which happens during the bamboo shoots season. In the bamboo zone they eat less varied food at smaller quantities than their Hagenia home, in fact bamboo shoots apparently make up to 90% of their diet during this season. https://gorillafund.org/what-do-gorillas...no-bamboo/. So they likely get a bit slimmer after spending the season in this zone, and regain their size in the Hagenia forests. There is also another type of area that has less food variety, they would go to the alpine tundra and mainly feed on the Senecio plants, but it seems less favored than the bamboo shoots.  (01-28-2020, 07:50 PM)The Panther Wrote:(01-28-2020, 03:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:I understand that, but the comparison between him and the man in that position doesn't necessarily prove whether he's over 250 kg or not, because gorillas don't seem to grow much in overall width, but mainly in stomach and chest girth. That photo with the man gives a good idea of how tall Guhonda is at the shoulder but not really his weight. I always liked this photo because it at least gave good perspective for his height. Now, look at 296 kg Samson, he wasn't extremely wide for a near 300 kg gorilla, even 300 kg humans look a lot wider than that. So it shows gorillas don't get too much wider even after significant weight gain, in fact there are males as wide if not wider than Guhonda (mainly around the shoulders). So Guhonda was never the most impressive when it comes to build but always impressive in weight and girth. His silverback son actually seems more impressive in build, he also seems slightly taller and longer but clearly doesn't have the girth of his father.(01-21-2020, 12:30 PM)The Panther Wrote: o unless there's proof that these males are so full of gas to the point it inflates them this much, then there really is no denying the obvious size difference here, and we shouldn't discard potential weights beyond 250kg either. It makes a lot of sense for an old mountain gorilla to be built like this, after all, silverback mountain gorillas can live relatively sedentary lives for 20 to 30 years and only travel short distances when they eventually move. They also consume huge quantities of vegetation daily within that time, which should mean they would gain considerable amounts of weight by the time they reach their twilight years. So we just don't know to what extent extra gas adds to their size, but if it adds anything noticeable, then Shadow's version of it makes the most sense when you include obesity. I have a hard time believing gas would play any role other than bloating which doesn't add mass it just makes you feel more full. Herbivores in general have a much longer digestive tract and thus food stays in their system for a much longer period of time as they extract every nutrient they can. I also think that it's obviously hard to tell if one is larger or smaller than another in muscle mass but that doesn't mean it's not pronounced, I'm sure if you put them side by side you'd be able to see the difference, whether in muscle definition & density or body robusticity, it's an occurrence that happens in all animals.
The Sabyinyo group getting excited due to bamboo shoots. Bamboo shoots are one of their favorite foods and are only around for a season in the bamboo zone. The two silverbacks are Guhonda who was 43 years old at the time, and his oldest son. You can tell the son still respects his father even though he's also a big powerful male himself.
Notice how impressive his son is, he even seems slightly taller and longer than his father, but he clearly doesn't have the girth and bulk of his father. You can see them together at 0:58 secs, here Guhonda is in the front and the son is behind him. The next bit is at 1:40 min, here Guhonda gets closer to his son. Now look at the girth of Guhonda as he walks away at 2:07 min, surely most of that isn't just gas as mentioned above.
An impressive Bwindi male with a few of his group members. The lush green scenery here is also very nice.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Big male stops females from fighting each other. It apparently started due to one of the females taking the baby of another one.
He reminds them that he's the boss at 2:25. (01-28-2020, 07:50 PM)The Panther Wrote: @GuateGojira I think that you missunderstand my point. I am not saying that the gorillas weight "more than" or "less than". What I try to explain with this "gas issue" is that the big bellies of the gorillas are inflated, which is a fact, and that make them to look "heavier". In few words, if it is very hard to guess the weights from carnivores, actually it is even harder for herbivores with huge bellies. We don't know its musculature and the density of the bones, also the large hair make them to look even "bigger" from what they are. So, we can guess that those male gorillas are of 250-300 kg but is only a guess, not based in actual facts or measurements. For the moment, most of the experts state that a male gorilla between 190 - 200 kg is allready a big one and the maximum actualy recorded (from a small sample, to be fair) is of about 220 kg. This male Guhonda looks large, but the more I investigate in the gorillas body masses actually recorded, the more I doubth that this large male is over the 230 kg and 250 kg seems too doubthfull at this moment. Also, comparing captive vs wild animals can create a lot of confusion, it happens with the big cats so I don't doubth that the same may happen with gorillas. At the end is just an opinion, but based in measurements and weights that we actually have. (02-10-2020, 12:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:I understand you're going by what's been recorded, but we shouldn't assume that it's very unlikely for males to go beyond 220 kg (485 lbs) simply because a small sample ended at that weight. Who's knows if that weight even represents the absolute biggest individuals in the region, especially considering how low samples are in general. This is why I chose to compare with captive males that have been weighed, so that it makes estimating easier. I personally doubt wild males like Guhonda or Kwitonda could ever weigh 300 kg (660 lbs), in fact my estimates only end at 250 to 265 kg (551 to 584 lbs) at max based on comparisons, so anything much more than that to me is very unlikely.(01-28-2020, 07:50 PM)The Panther Wrote: @GuateGojira Again, the issue with the intestinal gas is that I've not found proof it adds much to their bulk other than some bloating, nor do mountain gorillas get flat stomachs overnight either. Being large herbivores, they eat huge quantities of vegetation daily, in fact, male mountain gorillas are said to eat up to 75 lbs (34 kg) of vegetation daily. https://www.neprimateconservancy.org/mou...rilla.html They literally spend hours everyday sitting and foraging, this habit spans decades of a silverback's life from 13 to 35 or 45 years of age, to even Guhonda's age at 48. So it should be very likely for most males to have gained a significant amount of weight by the age of 30. The funny thing is that the Burger eating 296 kg Samson managed to reach that weight only in his 20's, which is actually a lot earlier than I expect wild mountain gorillas to reach their maximum weight, so it's quite obvious that his diet sped up his weight gain by a lot. I believe based on their lifestyle, that's it's possible they gain 90 to 104 kg (200 to 230 lbs) by the time they reach the age of 35+, which is over 22 years after they've become silverbacks. Considering how gluttonous humans can gain more weight than that within only 10 years, I don't see why it should be a problem for silverback mountain gorillas to gain over 100 kg within 20 something years. All that vegetation should amount to something great in all that time. 
" The Forever Meal.
Story of Saturn devouring his son is that a Spanish painter Francisco Goya depicted the Greek myth of the Titan Cronus Fearing that he would be overthrown by one of his children, Cronus (Saturn when Romanized) ate each one of his children upon their birth " One more time again it's completely inapropriate. This chimp is only eating an other monkey of a diferent specy. Why this monkey would be its son ? Why would they be apparented ? This chimp didn't preserve its future by eating it. Goya was a painter (1746-1828), not a scientist, and,as creator, could depict the very versatile universe of greekish gods as he wanted. It's true, according the greekish mythology, that Saturn devoured his sons, and it's true too that chimp are able to eat some other monkeys, even some other younger chimps. but this photo clearly shows the eaten monkey isn't a chimp. |
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