There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
01-15-2020, 03:49 PM( This post was last modified: 01-15-2020, 06:49 PM by The Panther )
Big old Guhonda balancing on a tree and shaking it. It's interesting how he's still nimble despite his old age and great size.
Old mountain gorillas like Guhonda seem to be a good amount heavier than the big Chimanuka male I posted above. Based on my comparisons with the biggest captive gorillas on record, I was able to estimate the size range of the biggest males like Guhonda, likely from 250 to maybe 273 kg (550 to 600 lbs), making them as big as wild gorillas get. They could potentially get heavier with a more omnivorous diet, because the biggest captive gorillas on record were also eating meat and got bigger than those weights. They also managed to attain extreme sizes at very young ages, which would normally take wild mountain gorillas decades to achieve, with very few exceptions.
01-15-2020, 06:33 PM( This post was last modified: 01-15-2020, 06:34 PM by johnny rex )
(01-15-2020, 03:49 PM)The Panther Wrote: Big old Guhonda balancing on a tree and shaking it. It's interesting how he's still nimble despite his old age and great size.
Old mountain gorillas like Guhonda seem to be a good amount heavier than the big Chimanuka male I posted above. Based on my comparisons with the biggest captive gorillas on record, I was able to estimate the size range of the biggest males like Guhonda, likely from 250 to maybe 273 kg (550 to 600 lbs), making them as big as wild gorillas get. They could potentially get heavier with a more omnivorous diet, based on the fact that the biggest captive gorillas were also eating meat and were heavier than those weights, even being fed burgers in those times. They also managed to attain extreme sizes at very young ages, which would normally take wild mountain gorillas decades to achieve, with very few exceptions.
Samson was given hamburgers during his lifetime until he reached his heaviest before his caretakers started to give him healthier diet.
(01-15-2020, 03:49 PM)The Panther Wrote: Big old Guhonda balancing on a tree and shaking it. It's interesting how he's still nimble despite his old age and great size.
Old mountain gorillas like Guhonda seem to be a good amount heavier than the big Chimanuka male I posted above. Based on my comparisons with the biggest captive gorillas on record, I was able to estimate the size range of the biggest males like Guhonda, likely from 250 to maybe 273 kg (550 to 600 lbs), making them as big as wild gorillas get. They could potentially get heavier with a more omnivorous diet, based on the fact that the biggest captive gorillas were also eating meat and were heavier than those weights, even being fed burgers in those times. They also managed to attain extreme sizes at very young ages, which would normally take wild mountain gorillas decades to achieve, with very few exceptions.
Samson was given hamburgers during his lifetime until he reached his heaviest before his caretakers started to give him healthier diet.
True. With more of an omnivorous diet, he was able to get extremely heavy fast. Just imagine how big him and M'bongo would've gotten if they lived to 40+ years of age like the old Eastern gorillas without going on a diet.
01-15-2020, 08:52 PM( This post was last modified: 01-15-2020, 10:51 PM by The Panther )
Old Kwitonda, he died in 2012 at age 40.
He would've been 47 years old today, second only to Guhonda who is 48 years old right now. Alongside Guhonda, he was also one of the largest males alive at the time.
01-16-2020, 03:42 AM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2020, 03:43 AM by Shadow )
I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
01-16-2020, 10:11 AM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2020, 11:20 AM by The Panther )
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
Sorry for the long comment guys, I hope you get to read through it.
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male. So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes, but Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
But off the topic of size for a second, it is sad that things are still kind of uncertain for mountain gorillas despite the improvements, but at the same time, the people of the area have problems too, so it's an uncomfortable situation regardless of how you look at it. I'm actually partially from a neighboring country, the DRC, so I understand how tense it is. On a lighter note, I've always bragged that we (DRC) have three subspecies of gorillas, Western lowland gorilla, Grauer's gorillas and Mountain gorillas, I always found that interesting but it shows just how big the country is.
01-16-2020, 11:11 AM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2020, 07:29 PM by Shadow )
(01-16-2020, 10:11 AM)The Panther Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
The Reall_Nature Page: " Saturn and his Son. Chimps have been documented on how they hunt other smaller monkeys. Go google, Saturn Devouring his Son. "
IMO:
It's a supid comment. Saturn, really ate his son. But what does this monkey represent for this chimp ? Just a stranger animal. It's tue that chimps are able to eat other smaller animals, and thus other smaller monkeys. But is this chimp aware of eating a brother inside the animals classification ? What a joke ! Stop judging animals so easily...
01-16-2020, 12:59 PM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2020, 03:40 PM by The Panther )
(01-16-2020, 11:11 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 10:11 AM)The Panther Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla for has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.
Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.
The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from thin air.
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla for has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.
Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.
The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from thin air.
There isn´t so much difference if estimation from photo is for instance 250 kg or 240-260 kg, it´s still unreliable way to estimate especially weight if there is nothing in the photo, which could be used in comparison so, that size of that other thing is known. With length or tallness it´s often a little bit easier, but still far from accurate.
For me things have been then quite opposite when looking what you tell. I mean, I used to estimate more (boldly) when younger and I was less skeptical. But with time I have become much more skeptic because so many mistakes by me and others. People tend to overestimate things they like. I asked now from people who should have much better overall understanding about gorillas than us, because I´m curious to know what kind of figures they give and with what kind of reasoning. They should know all these gorillas, like Guhonda and other famous ones and they know some weighed gorillas. So from these people we should be able to get some kind of understanding, because they actually have seen these gorillas in person and should know how massive for instance Guhonda is when compared to some others.
I haven´t got new message yet, but hopefully at some point today I will. It can take some time when asking from other people working there.
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla for has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.
Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.
The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from
the Vest African lowland gorilla named Samson, which zoo did he come from?
I know they had one in Givskud ZOO in Denmark named Samson.
01-17-2020, 12:41 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2020, 02:22 PM by The Panther )
(01-16-2020, 07:42 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 12:59 PM)The Panther Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 11:11 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 10:11 AM)The Panther Wrote:
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla for has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.
Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.
The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from thin air.
There isn´t so much difference if estimation from photo is for instance 250 kg or 240-260 kg, it´s still unreliable way to estimate especially weight if there is nothing in the photo, which could be used in comparison so, that size of that other thing is known. With length or tallness it´s often a little bit easier, but still far from accurate.
For me things have been then quite opposite when looking what you tell. I mean, I used to estimate more (boldly) when younger and I was less skeptical. But with time I have become much more skeptic because so many mistakes by me and others. People tend to overestimate things they like. I asked now from people who should have much better overall understanding about gorillas than us, because I´m curious to know what kind of figures they give and with what kind of reasoning. They should know all these gorillas, like Guhonda and other famous ones and they know some weighed gorillas. So from these people we should be able to get some kind of understanding, because they actually have seen these gorillas in person and should know how massive for instance Guhonda is when compared to some others.
I haven´t got new message yet, but hopefully at some point today I will. It can take some time when asking from other people working there.
It's more reliable than just estimating them without a comparison. The problem is, you give them too much credit simply because they work there, what actually makes you think they should know about each and every silverback gorilla's weight? Because dominant males are rarely if ever sedated, thus never weighed. I don't think seeing them in person is a better way to estimate than using images of actual measured specimens in comparisons, specimens who more likely than not have similar dimensions to these wild gorillas we're comparing them with. People like @GuateGojira have done great comparisons using photos, and give you a lot of perspective when you see them, which is the main goal of my comparisons, to give perspective and at least be able to put those gorillas in a specific weight range because of their similarities to those captive males.
The thing is, the people I would rather listen to are the people who actually weighed these specific gorillas, because at least they would be able to give a definitive weight for those specific males they measured. The problem is, the biggest males like Guhonda have pretty much never been weighed, and their estimates don't seem to do a lot of justice to them either, from 220 kg to 300 kg, nothing is definitive.
Like I said before, I never said my comparisons/ estimates were the absolute truth, but they're better than other baseless estimates from people who don't have anything to compare with and have never weighed the gorillas. To me, estimates are at their strongest if there's a comparison, or if someone knows the specifics which most of these people don't, after all, they've never weighed the gorillas in question. And I'm talking about big dominant males here, before you get confused, not solitary young males who are the most likely to be sedated and weighed.
(01-16-2020, 03:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: I wrote to Virunga Park in Congo and asked if they have some recent information about weights/sizes of gorillas.
Here is one quote:
"About all the questions you have asked, we do not have recent research done yet but what i have seen my self as a silver back gorilla, it was weighing 199 kgs, according to the research that was recently conducted by then on the same gorilla, it was indeed huge and its height am not sure, but it was not tall, what i know it was huge huge and huge. "
I might get some more information tomorrow at some time if lucky, but when I told about it, that participating to discussions about gorillas, I was asked to share this also here:
You can actually share the link with your friends, people living nearby the park, have remained hostile to the gorillas, i really don't know what do to these people;"
That problem reminded me about this video, it´s 10 years old but how much is changed really in that time....
That's interesting. Did they say his name and how old he was? Because old silverbacks are generally the largest silverbacks, and I don't think I've ever heard of an old established silverback ever being sedated for research or even medication, likely due to them normally having large groups around them at all times, though straying females or younger gorillas (including blackback males) seem fair game. Solitary silverbacks are the most likely to be sedated, they're normally the least established silverbacks of the park, with few exceptions.
And of course 199 kg is indeed a large animal in general especially compared to a normal human, but I don't think it represents anywhere near the largest of Eastern gorillas, which are normally old males. Old males are in the minority, due to how long they lived, so it's quite likely their weights have never been taken in the Virungas, Bwindi or Kahuzi Biega. They are proof of just how big an Eastern gorilla gets if it lives long enough. The most likely candidates of these measurements are males in their 20's or younger, due to how common they are and the more likely chances of them being solitary. Their late 20's is likely when they start getting really big, but that's if they live to their late 20's, let alone 48 years of age like the big Guhonda male.
So age is really important when talking about Eastern gorilla sizes. Western gorillas however seem to have a more constant size range regardless of age group and are generally smaller than Eastern gorillas.
I asked about biggest gorillas they know and I mentioned for instance Guhonda. And I asked if they have any weights and also if they have some educated guesses from professional people who are there working with these gorillas.
That first reply wasn´t surprising, because 199 kg gorilla for has to be huge, all available and reliable information after all give average weights clearly under 200 kg for males. Since estimations here have been lately much more than known biggest reliable weights, I thought that it´s good to ask from people who should know and maybe get something better than estimations from photos. Which is after all very unreliable way to make estimations, it´s like lottery. I´m sure, that if showing certain photos of for instance tigers, which weight under 200 kg and showing to people who don´t know which tiger, they would give estimations like 250-300 kg. Just because they can look from certain angles absolutely massive.
Anyway I might get more information today, the person who replied said, that trying to find out more this morning from other people working there.
Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.
Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.
The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from
the Vest African lowland gorilla named Samson, which zoo did he come from?
I know they had one in Givskud ZOO in Denmark named Samson.
This Samson is from the Milwaukee county zoo, in the US.
