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Smilodon populator

tigerluver Offline
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#16

While Smilodon is by far more robust than any tiger, the Ngandong femur has been tampered with to decrease its width. Here's a comparison with an S. populator from Castro and Langer (2008) with an old photo of the Ngandong femur I had lying around that was scaled with a ruler:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Here we can see that the thickness of the diaphysis and proximal epiphysis are just shy of the Ngandong femur despite the S. populator femur being 98 mm shorter. 

For future reference (and to prevent tampered photos from being passed off as the original) I have attached the page from von Koenigswald.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#17

It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#18
( This post was last modified: 11-11-2018, 09:25 AM by Wolverine )

(11-10-2018, 09:46 PM)Spalea Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 08:51 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 03:28 PM)Spalea Wrote: About #12: difference in width (transversal section) pretty flagrant...

Exactly, smilodon probably had almost bear-like robustness...

Yes, but I have a small depiction problem... If the smilodon populator had a bear-like constitution, how did it hunt ? Was it a long runner like the extant spotted hyenas ? In this case the smilodon would be an exception among felids, yes but why not ? Or did it run by ambush as the tiger does ? In this case, it couldn't run as fastly as the tiger because of the "seemingly weaker hind legs" (dixit in the #11). A bear-like predator ? A scavenger ? A scavenger living and acting in pride ?
Probably S.populator didn't need the speed of Panthera cats because its prey were slower and heavier herbivores.
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#19
( This post was last modified: 11-11-2018, 10:01 AM by Wolverine )

For sure it wasn't a long distance runner because the cat physiology doesn't allow this. Cats have relatively smaller hearts comparing to their body mass in comparison with canids that's why they get tired easily. They are sprinters not long distance runners. Even in fight with other predator for example tiger-bear the feline has to kill the enemy in first several minutes, if it loose the momentum it has no more chances against the bear who gets tired much harder. Wolves and bears need much more time to get excausted than the big cats. 
So, smilodon populator obviously was not chasing the prey on long distances and in same time being bad jumper and not as fast as lions and tigers was most probably hunting large slow herbivores. Probably the largest herbivores hunt by any felid ever. His enourmous physical power allowed him to tackle such a big prey along with unique method of killing based probably on "poking", not on "biting" the prey, distinct from the techniques of killing of the modern big cats.
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tigerluver Offline
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#20

(11-10-2018, 11:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?

I generally remember the opposite being said. Skimming through Christiansen and Harris (2005), it looks like S. populator was quite a bit more robust and heavily built than S. fatalis.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Take any of the width measurements and divide them by humerus length (HL) or femur length (FL), respectively, to find the width:length ratio. It generally seem S. populator had greater width to length ratios, hinting it was more heavily built.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#21

(11-11-2018, 10:31 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 11:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?

I generally remember the opposite being said. Skimming through Christiansen and Harris (2005), it looks like S. populator was quite a bit more robust and heavily built than S. fatalis.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Take any of the width measurements and divide them by humerus length (HL) or femur length (FL), respectively, to find the width:length ratio. It generally seem S. populator had greater width to length ratios, hinting it was more heavily built.


Smilodon fatalis lived in an environment akin to the pantherine species, that's why its body was accustomed to be more panthera-like.

BTW, when I just PMed you the last message, I simultaneously hit a limit ceiling of the inbox which it compels me to delete more old messages. And have you received my last message so far?
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tigerluver Offline
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#22

(11-11-2018, 10:54 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(11-11-2018, 10:31 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 11:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?

I generally remember the opposite being said. Skimming through Christiansen and Harris (2005), it looks like S. populator was quite a bit more robust and heavily built than S. fatalis.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Take any of the width measurements and divide them by humerus length (HL) or femur length (FL), respectively, to find the width:length ratio. It generally seem S. populator had greater width to length ratios, hinting it was more heavily built.


Smilodon fatalis lived in an environment akin to the pantherine species, that's why its body was accustomed to be more panthera-like.

BTW, when I just PMed you the last message, I simultaneously hit a limit ceiling of the inbox which it compels me to delete more old messages. And have you received my last message so far?


Yes I received it!

With S. fatalis sharing its range with a true pantherine, it’s interesting that it did not follow the route of becoming a “bear-cat” to the extent S. populator did. Perhaps the extra mass would overlap with the niche of P. atrox too much.
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#23


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#24

(11-11-2018, 11:20 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(11-11-2018, 10:54 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(11-11-2018, 10:31 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 11:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?

I generally remember the opposite being said. Skimming through Christiansen and Harris (2005), it looks like S. populator was quite a bit more robust and heavily built than S. fatalis.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Take any of the width measurements and divide them by humerus length (HL) or femur length (FL), respectively, to find the width:length ratio. It generally seem S. populator had greater width to length ratios, hinting it was more heavily built.


Smilodon fatalis lived in an environment akin to the pantherine species, that's why its body was accustomed to be more panthera-like.

BTW, when I just PMed you the last message, I simultaneously hit a limit ceiling of the inbox which it compels me to delete more old messages. And have you received my last message so far?


Yes I received it!

With S. fatalis sharing its range with a true pantherine, it’s interesting that it did not follow the route of becoming a “bear-cat” to the extent S. populator did. Perhaps the extra mass would overlap with the niche of P. atrox too much.

When you look at the old world sabertooth species, they were even more panthera-like as more pantherine species co-existed with them adjacently.
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#25


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
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India brotherbear Offline
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#26

From Spalea, post #15: Yes, but I have a small depiction problem... If the smilodon populator had a bear-like constitution, how did it hunt ? Was it a long runner like the extant spotted hyenas ? In this case the smilodon would be an exception among felids, yes but why not ? Or did it run by ambush as the tiger does ? In this case, it couldn't run as fastly as the tiger because of the "seemingly weaker hind legs" (dixit in the #11). A bear-like predator ? A scavenger ? A scavenger living and acting in pride ? 
 
I am also curious about this as well. I would say certainly not a scavenger with those teeth. Ambush predator seems most likely. Big question is, loner or pack-hunter? 
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Czech Republic Spalea Offline
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#27

(11-10-2018, 11:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: It seems I read somewhere that Smilodon fatalis is even more heavily built than the larger Smilodon populator. Would this be correct?

See and read :

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-xenosmilus-hodsonae

At the #1 description by @Vodmeister .
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Czech Republic Spalea Offline
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#28

(11-11-2018, 06:45 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 09:46 PM)Spalea Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 08:51 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 03:28 PM)Spalea Wrote: About #12: difference in width (transversal section) pretty flagrant...

Exactly, smilodon probably had almost bear-like robustness...

Yes, but I have a small depiction problem... If the smilodon populator had a bear-like constitution, how did it hunt ? Was it a long runner like the extant spotted hyenas ? In this case the smilodon would be an exception among felids, yes but why not ? Or did it run by ambush as the tiger does ? In this case, it couldn't run as fastly as the tiger because of the "seemingly weaker hind legs" (dixit in the #11). A bear-like predator ? A scavenger ? A scavenger living and acting in pride ?
Probably S.populator didn't need the speed of Panthera cats because its prey were slower and heavier herbivores.
Yes, of course it's possible ! See this video which confirms what you said. Smilodon would be very depedent on the very big preys he hunted. Even if I can hardly imagine a predator killing a big prey as he did in this video: catching hold of his prey (a giant buffalo) to tople, to bring down, it like a super rugby player...  I don't know.




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Canada Wolverine Away
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#29
( This post was last modified: 11-12-2018, 11:20 AM by Wolverine )

(11-11-2018, 12:40 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Big question is, loner or pack-hunter? 

Its really important, but is hard to be proved in either way. If we take into account the Possibility theory the chance to be pack-hunters is minimal. From 36  current species of family Felidae only 1 specie - lion is a truly pack hunter while other 35 species of cats are solitary hunters. So possibility Smilodon populator to be a pack-hunter is only 3% while the chance to be solitary hunter is 97%. 
If one day will be proved that Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera Atrox were a pack hunters that will mean that they had a "lion brains" and would be one of the most important evidences that these predators were only lion subspecies, while proving that they were a solitary hunters would be a serious evidence that they were completely different species of animals. 
The problem in paleontology is that anything concerning ethology of ancient animals is highly unprovable.
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Indonesia P.T.Sondaica Offline
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#30

@wolfrine riddle
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