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Size comparisons
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Thead is now "cleaned" in a bit harsh way. All relevant information should be there. Then again other things were there long enough for people involved to see.
Thread will be still closed for an hour. Handle possible personal issues with pm´s and in public threads keep calm. You guys are all good posters and respected, but it serves no-one if things heat up too much. Sometimes people disagree, no matter what. Then all can just post what they think and why. And leave it there for others to decide what they believe or assume after seeing what is said and based on what. 
Hi everyone. @Shadow has addressed the issues well but I will give my two cents as well.
The information here is great. Great referencing source and critical analyses of the material. However, it is getting marred by some dirt in subtle to not so subtle insults. Let us please debate ideas and not each other. Please avoid words such as "silly", sarcastic remarks, and of course, stating dislike for one another. There are very few people who care dearly about these disappearing species. Do not let difference in ideology create rifts between the people who are the last bit of hope for a future with wildlife. Lastly, we may be willing to open a debate thread regarding this debate. If we can do the aforementioned, interesting information may come. 
Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:
 *This image is copyright of its original author Beautiful animal! (08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water: They say, that it would be 6 meters long. Might be when looking at that.  (08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:It would be great to know the size of the boat  (08-28-2019, 02:54 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Hi everyone. @Shadow has addressed the issues well but I will give my two cents as well. I was about to compliment all contributing to the debate when the 4-inchers appeared out of nowhere. I was about to do a post when I read the contribution of Tigerluver. In my opinion, it's an excellent summary. I also like the advice he offered. My proposal is to proceed. The aim is good information, not something else. (08-27-2019, 12:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @peter Yes. I found the letter of Pocock published in the JBNHS (Vol. XXXIV, Misc. Notes, II - Tiger or Panther?, pp. 544-547). Here's a quote from Pocock's letter (page 545): " ... In actual length there is not always much difference between large skulls of male panthers, especially African, and smallish skulls of Indian tigresses; but the tigress's skull can be distinguished at a glance by its greater height, and general massiveness, notably in the width of the jaws, and in the much greater size of the teeth. In its tout ensemble it is quite unmistakable; and Mr. Limouzin's skull is a perfectly typical tigress's, with nothing at all remarkable about it. It has the large teeth, the massive muzzle, the long nasals, the broad mesopterygoid fossa etc. of the tiger ... " (R.I. Pocock, British Museum (Nat. Hist.), London, December 1929). (08-27-2019, 11:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:Quote:The video you've posted of the jaguar being weighed shows the same specimen we were talking about above. It was apparently weighed at 315lb (143kg) but then they said someone was holding the head so they added 5kg to account for that to get to 148kg. But they did not subtract for stomach content!So you somehow decided to downgrade it based off a 5kg claim on holding a head and not deducting stomach content because he's "fat but not overly full" I don’t know what you mean by downgrading. I am simply pointing out to you that this jaguar is the same as the 148kg record which was being discussed earlier because looking through your posts you seem to be unaware of this fact. You’ve posted this video a few times indicating this is a different specimen to the 148kg record and stating it was unbaited and empty for some reason. That is incorrect – that is the mistake I was referring to. Also, the video you’ve been posting has the important bit about stomach content edited out (making your unsubstantiated claim that it was with empty stomach also a mistake). For example you erroneously state this jaguar was empty stomach and then later also suggest there are separate records of 142kg and 148kg. You are incorrect.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author You also posted lots of incorrect weights for jaguars taken by Tony Almeida in the "modern weights of jaguars" thread without any source. Those were also mistakes as already pointed out. Given these multiple mistakes, I thought since one of the main purposes of this forum appears to be to provide accurate info on the size of animals, someone should have corrected you by now. Regarding the competition among male jaguars in the Pantanal. I’m sure these male jaguars have to compete hard for females, males of most big cat species do. But I don’t see any reason to believe the competition would be particularly intense. I mention science because my reasoning is based on well established concepts of evolutionary biology and animal behaviour. It is well known that sexual dimorphism is strongly linked to inter-male competition – when there’s a lot of fighting between males they get a lot bigger than the females. Here the jaguar normally ranks the lowest among the big cats leaving aside the snow leopard (there are scientific publications looking at this specifically which demonstrate this).The lack of additional secondary sex characteristics present in the other 3 big pantherines (mane, dewlap, ruff) but not the jaguar also makes the jaguar less dimorphic and indicates less intense competition. Secondly, studies on the spatial organization of jaguars suggest they have very loose territories with little monopolization of females – this would also be an indicator of less inter male competition because more rigid territories and greater monopolization of females usually results in more fighting for breeding rights. Jaguars also generally occur at lower densities than other big cats which may also translate to less competition. Lastly, in species where males fight a lot, there is greater senility – meaning the males age early and live short lives. But a lot of male jaguars seem to reach very old age in the wild, quite a bit older than males of the other big cats. For example, one of the big males taken by Tony Almeida was estimated to be over 20 years old in prime Pantanal territory based on previous encounters and his physical condition. Another male captured for study in the Llanos was aged at 20 years old by researchers. And recently the Panthera researchers posted about a 15 year old and a 19 year old male still holding territories in the Pantanal. I have not heard of such old age for wild male lions, tigers, or leopards – certainly not from areas with high density. For example it is rare for male lions to reach even 10 years old in the Serengeti. Usually 15 or 16 years is the upper limit for male big cats, but male jaguars seem to get past that.  (08-28-2019, 12:12 AM)chui_ Wrote: Lol. There is nothing more to say to you. You've demonstrated very well how well informed and resourceful you are. Guys, messages like these^ could have been conveyed in a more respectful manner... All your good quality postings are appreciated, but try not to escalate a minor disagreement to a whole new level. If your post contains something meant offend someone, it will be deleted along with whatever important info it has, irrespective of your reason. (I have edited & restored some of the previously deleted ones, this time.) So if some post offends you, report it, instead of responding to it in the exact same manner. (08-28-2019, 04:51 AM)epaiva Wrote:(08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:It would be great to know the size of the boat That boat is 25 feet, 7,62 meters. Asked from that company doing those tours. So it looks like, that estimation of 6 meters, which is mentioned in many places is quite realistic. |
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