There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
This same face-off was posted on every animal vs animal blog site in the past. While the crocodile does stand a chance, the advantage goes to the great white shark which has a weight advantage of roughly half-a-ton. A much better showdown would be saltwater crocodile vs tiger shark; more evenly matched.
(04-02-2018, 12:40 PM)brotherbear Wrote: This same face-off was posted on every animal vs animal blog site in the past. While the crocodile does stand a chance, the advantage goes to the great white shark which has a weight advantage of roughly half-a-ton. A much better showdown would be saltwater crocodile vs tiger shark; more evenly matched.
Completely agree. Shark is much more evasive on water too and knows the ins and outs of a direct confrontation more than crocodiles do, crocodiles ambush their prey almost all the time. Sharks have to bum-rush their prey or they escape.
(04-02-2018, 12:40 PM)brotherbear Wrote: This same face-off was posted on every animal vs animal blog site in the past. While the crocodile does stand a chance, the advantage goes to the great white shark which has a weight advantage of roughly half-a-ton. A much better showdown would be saltwater crocodile vs tiger shark; more evenly matched.
While obviously weight does matter in this face-off, I feel like it matters less than in face-offs between felines and ursids.
Big cats and bears go into a grappling match when fighting with another big cat or bear. In a grappling match, size and strength is absolutely vital.
In a face-off between a saltie and great white, the match will be decided by who can land the best bite. Weight still matters, but not as much, in my opinion.
Regardless of a troubled past, its good to hear from you here Vodmeister. Yes, I was thinking about it myself as I was typing that post. Weight in water is very different than on dry land. Just for fun, how do you think a salty would fare against a tiger shark of relatively equal proportions?
04-06-2018, 10:59 PM( This post was last modified: 04-06-2018, 11:00 PM by Vodmeister )
(04-06-2018, 01:36 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Regardless of a troubled past, its good to hear from you here Vodmeister. Yes, I was thinking about it myself as I was typing that post. Weight in water is very different than on dry land. Just for fun, how do you think a salty would fare against a tiger shark of relatively equal proportions?
Haha no problem
At equal weight I'm inclined to favour the crocodile.
There's very little footage or even records about interactions between saltwater crocodiles and sharks, which makes it difficult to make a judgement.
04-08-2018, 08:20 PM( This post was last modified: 04-09-2018, 06:14 AM by epaiva )
In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
In this video, the sharks look slightly longer and certainly a fair bit heavier than the crocodile, but the crocodile does not look afraid at all.
Those are lemon sharks, nothing to do with whites...
And is always the same with croc bias, if the animal isn't over 5 meters they'll claim is small. Also crocs have low stamina.
About #1, crocs targeting the throat, that's a new one...
#36 In other words, the croc will only have the advantage if the shark is unable to move freely.
There are very few documented interactions of great white sharks with any crocodilian species, because great white sharks rarely visit the warm coastal waters where crocodiles hunt in marine waters.
But in general I see that sharks are very overrated. One man in this topic (2015s year, oh...) statet that the adult saltwater crocodile had problems with a aquarium fish-sized bull shark based on a media article... That looks very strange...
1, Firstly, crocodile can kill a smaller shark (crocodile estimated at 2 meters and shark estimated at 1.5 meters) in a seconds:
0:14 - the crocodile grabbed the shark, 0:19 - the shark stopped moving.
2. There are also accounts of crocodiles killing larger sharks but there are no any clear accounts of sharks killing adult crocs. E.g. 41 accounts of crocodile-shark interactions from quora:
Quote:1. On 27 February 1938 newspaper The Sunday Morning Star (unknown author) describes report about fatal interaction between Crocodylus porosus (~300 cm TL) and unidentified (~210 cm TL) shark in Adelaide river near Darwin (Northen Australia). Shark was killed and dragged under water by crocodile.
The Sunday Morning Star - Google News Archive Search. news.google.com.
2. In Sundarbans Crocodylus porosus as wel as tigers (Panthera tigris) are known to take from water and killing adult Carcharhinus leucas.
(Sanyal, pers. comm.)
3. Book "Surveys of Tidal River Systems in the Northern Territory of Australia and Their Crocodile Populations" by Pergamon Press (1981) reports predation by large (>330 cm TL) Crocodylus porosus on Carcharhinus leucas (150-180 cm TL). Detailed description is given:
"At 14:05 hrs (90 minutes after high tide) on September 20, 1977, a crocodile >11' in length was observed floating downstream past the anchored vessel at km 32. The crocodile's movements were observed with the help of binoculars. After passing the vessel, the crocodile's head was observed to go quickly underwater and come up with a 3-4' shark (probably a freshwater whaler). The crocodile then submerged its head with the shark in its mouth, but its back remained visibly arched out of the water."
Surveys of Tidal River Systems in the Northern Territory of Australia and Their Crocodile Populations. — Pergamon Press, 1981. — 472 p. — ISBN 9780080248196.
4. G. D. Flinter reports about interaction in 1817 between ~2.4 m "alligator" (most likely Crocodylus acutus) and large unidentified shark in book that was published in 1919. Crocodile prevailed in a fight that was not brought to an end.
George Dawson Flinter. A History of the Revolution of Carácas: Comprising an Impartial Narrative of the Atrocities Committed by the Contending Parties, Illustrating the Real State of the Contest ... Together with a Descriptive of the Llaneros...— T. & J. Allman, 1819. — 234 p.
5. Global Grapevine (unknown data) in Printest posted material with possible predation event by Crocodylus porosus (unknown size) on large (~460 cm TL) Galeocerdo cuvier:
"This was the remains of a 15 foot Tiger shark; it seems that it had provided breakfast for one rather hungry saltwater crocodile! But it was too much even for that bad boy! The staff at Yellow Waters had never known a crocodile attack a shark before..."
Provided photo requires further study.
Australian bitey things! Pinterest.
6. Messel (1984) report that 1,2-1,5 m Crocodylus johnstoni was found in the stomach of large (490 cm TL) Carcharodon carcharias.
Harry Messel. Population Dynamics of Crocodylus Porosus and Status, Management and Recovery: Update 1979-1983. — Pergamon Press, 1984. — 308 p. — ISBN 9780080298580.
7. G. L. Wood in 1982 reports about anecdotal fight between very large (~550 cm TL) Carcharodon carcharias and very large (~600 cm TL) Crocodylus porosus. Crocodile won in fierce battle with biting off a shark's head.
Message comes from 1939 and possibly personal observation, because text is not provided in "The Guinness Book of Animal Facts and Feats" at least 1972 and 1983 publications contrary to the references of some sources.
(e.g. Stuebing pers. comm.)
8. A. C. Pooley reports about predation by Crocodylus niloticus on Carcharhinus leucas.
Whitfield and Blaber (1979) write:
"Crocodiles at St. Lucia have been recorded feeding on the following fish species: riverbream (Acanthopagrus berda), kob (Argyrosomus hololepidotus), sharptooth catfish (Clarias gariepinus), striped mullet (Mugil cephalus), pike conger (Muraenesox bagio), spotted grunter (Pomadasys commersonni), Zambezi shark (Carcharhinus leucas) and lesser guitarfish (Rhinobatus annulatus) (Dunsterville, 1968; A. C. Pooley, pers. comm.)."
Whitfield, A.K. and S.J.M. Blaber, 1979. "Predation on striped mullet (Mugil cephalus) by Crocodylus niloticus at St. Lucia, South Africa".
9. The following observation, which also reported by Pooley (pers. comm.), describes successful attack by adult (~370 cm TL, originally reported as "young") Crocodylus niloticus on large (~300 cm TL) Carcharhinus leucas. This incident also casually mentions Cott (1961) as “fight between a crocodile and a shark was once witnessed in mouth of the estuary”.
10. Nifong (2017) describes predation by Alligator mississippiensis on Ginglymostoma cirratum, Sphyrna tiburo and Negaprion brevirostris.
Author give the following accounts:
"Specifically, on 21 June 1997 during sea turtle nesting surveys along the oceanfront beaches (>25 ppt) of Wassaw Island, an adult American Alligator (~250 cm TL, sex unknown) was observed attacking and consuming a Bonnethead Shark. Later, on 7 July 1999, the same researcher observed a subadult (~160 cm TL) American Alligator capture and consume a juvenile Lemon Shark in the surf zone. No photographs were obtained. On 2 August 2003, a United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) staff member observed and photographed an American Alligator (~250 cm TL) capturing, manipulating, and consuming a Nurse Shark (~100 cm TL) (Fig. 2) in an estuarine (10–35 ppt) mangrove swamp (26.471047°N, 82.151627°W; Fig. 1) within the Ding Darling National Wildlife Refuge in Sanibel, FL. On 19 September 2006 at 1528, a naturalist (J. Cooke, St. Marks, FL) while viewing foraging wading birds, observed and photographed an adult American Alligator, presumably male based on body size (~300 cm TL), capture, manipulate, and consume an adult Bonnethead Shark (Fig. 3) in a tidal salt marsh (15–35 ppt) of St. Marks, FL (30.156747°N, 84.219081°W; Fig. 1). The observer documented the event through a series of 12 photographs".
Said author allo recalls several historical accounts with interaction between Alligator mississippiensis and sharks.
James Nifong (2017), "Reciprocal Intraguild Predation between Alligator mississippiensis (American Alligator) and Elasmobranchii in the Southeastern United States".
11. One account was published in 1888 (unknown publisher and unknown author) in an article entitled “Sharks and Alligators: Furious duel on the coast of Florida”, which describes clash between 5 or 6 A. mississippiensis (the largest reported to be 465 cm TL, was likely an exaggeration) and a comparable number of sharks (size and species not reported) in the tidal Indian River (Florida). During the altercation several of the sharks as well as alligators suffered mortal injuries. Furthermore, the author(s) of this article report interactions such as this were commonly observed during this period.
12. On 14 May 1884 the periodical The Palatka Daily News published an account (unknown author) describing a agressively contest between a shark (~300 cm TL, species not reported) and a A. mississippiensis (~210 cm TL) at East Pass near Pilot Cove (Florida). Described therein, following some attempts by the shark without good resistance attempts by alligator, a mortal bite was delivered to the thoracic region and tore alligator in half.
Kevin M. McCarthy. Alligator Tales. — Pineapple Press Inc, 1998. — 186 p. — ISBN 9781561641581.
13. On 5 October 1877 the sports magazine The Fishing Gazette published an article entitled “Alligator and Shark Fight”, recounting the observations of skirmish between American Alligators and sharks (unknown species) in a tidal inlet near Jupiter, Florida. The observers claim a large number of American Alligators (~500 individuals) congregated within a bight in the inlet to take advantage of schools of fish trapped there by a strong flood tide (Alligators and ... 1877). A few days following this feeding aggregation, the combination of a strong northwest wind and high tidecaused the water and the engorged American Alligators trapped in the bight to flow out into the main channel of the inlet. It was said that in the inlet a mass school of sharks (hundreds) had congregated, likely drawn by the smell of blood and the feeding activities of the Alligators. Once in the inlet, the Alligators were attacked by the awaiting sharks. Quoting from an eyewitness statement “…sharks and alligators rise on the crest of the waves and fight like dogs”. In the days following the skirmish, carried by strong currents, numerous carcasses of both American Alligators and sharks were reported to have washed ashore along beaches extending to Cape Malabar (nearly 130 km to the north). Counting bodies on the beach indicated that score was in favor of alligators.
14. Minton (publishing by Scribner, 1973) mentions that remains of shark (species not mentioned) was found in the stomach of Crocodylus porosus.
Minton, Madge Rutherford Minton. Giant reptiles. — Scribner, 1973. — 388 p. — ISBN 9780684145587.
15. Russian journal "Вокруг света" in 1982 published observation of aggressive interaction between ~15 crocodiles (possibly Crocodylus niloticus) and 5-6 "sand sharks" (possibly Carcharias taurus or Carcharhinus plumbeus) without the result data.
Бой в устье | Публикации | Вокруг Света. http://www.vokrugsveta.ru.
16. Perissinotto et al. (2013) mention Carcharias taurus and Carcharinus leucas as prey item in diet of Crocodylus niloticus in lake St Lucia (South Africa).
Renzo Perissinotto, Derek D. Stretch, Ricky H. Taylor. Ecology and Conservation of Estuarine Ecosystems: Lake St Lucia as a Global Model. — Cambridge University Press, 2013-05-16. — 515 p. — ISBN 9781107354999.
17. A. Mitra and S. Zaman (2014) as a G. Karleskint, R. Turner and J. Small (2012) report that Crocodylus porosus sometimes prey on sharks that "close to their own size", but this claim was not substantiated with data or links.
Abhijit Mitra, Sufia Zaman. Blue Carbon Reservoir of the Blue Planet. — Springer, 2014-11-20. — 306 p. — ISBN 9788132221074.
George Karleskint, Richard Turner, James Small. Introduction to Marine Biology. — Cengage Learning, 2012-04-26. — 575 p. — ISBN 1285402227.
18. On 17 October 1936 newspaper The Age (unknown author) described attack by a large Crocodylus porosus on a hooked shark (body size and species not reported, but the average weight of caught sharks was ~100 kg).
The Age - Google News Archive Search. news.google.com.
19. N. Caldwell and N. Ellison (1936) described a brutal battle between Crocodylus porosus (size unkown) and very large Carcharinus leucas (body weight 453 kg). Crocodile came out the winner, after pulled the shark to shore. Detailed description is given:
"They fought for front rank as they crept over the mud and waited. Foot by foot the crocodile worked its way backwards. How it managed to drag approximately nine hundred pounds' weight of shark through the soft oozy mud I cannot tell. But it did. I saw the last gasping struggle made by the whaler as it was hauled from the water ; heard the last snapping of jaws. Then silence. The crocodile had won the unequal struggle. But its grip on the tail did not relax until the body of the captive had stiffened. There had been a foul, a complete ugliness about the fight, if such it could be called. And now, spoils to the victor! Spoils then and there going down his great gullet. I have been told that a crocodile buries its food before eating it. This one did not. It ate and ate and ate. At daybreak, I sculled to the scene. The remains of the shark had been buried in the thick evil-smelling mud. It had been a very hungry crocodile — from the tail well up forward of the dorsal fin had been eaten."
Norman W. Caldwell, Norman Ellison. Fangs of the Sea. — Angus & Robertson, 1936. — 208 p.
20. On the Townsville beach was observed Crocodylus porosus (size unkown) that feeding on Galeocerdo cuvier (size unkown) carcass. It is not known, does this account demonstrate predation or scavenging.
(Deleted source - http://www.explore-townsville.co...)
21. On 2 April 1938 newspaper The Telegraph (unknown author) describes fight between Crocodylus niloticus madagascariensis (body size unknown) and shark (body size and species not reported) nearshore of Madagascar. The shark, as reported, tore the crocodile tail, but the crocodile was caught by sailors and the battle was not brought to an end.
The Telegraph - Google News Archive Search. news.google.com.
22. In India unknown local newspaper (and unknown author) in 1875 published article which describes aggressive interactions that was observed by "some famous naturalist". This observation describes as crocodile (most likely Crocodylus palustris) fought with several similar-sized sharks (most likely Carcharinus leucas) over cow carcass in the lower reaches of Ganges. Final result unkown, becouse carcass was carried away by the river. But is claimed that crocodile suddenly rushed to sharks that approaching too close, biting and pushed predatory fishes away. At least three sharks were seriously injured and probably died (मगरमच्छ ... शार्क).
(Sankhala, pers. comm.)
23. In July 1962 in book by Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Department described that stomatch of the large (~430 cm TL) Galeocerdo cuvier, that caught off the coast of Durban, South Africa, contained the head and forequartes of a crocodile (were likely Crocodylus niloticus, SKL 40–45 cm, possible TL ~283–~319 cm using head-body ratio from Warner et al., 2015) along with the hind limbs of a Ovis aries, 3 seagulls (undetined taxa), 2 cans of peas, and a cigarette tin. It is not known, does this account demonstrate predation or scavenging.
Louisiana Conservationist. — Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Department, 1961. — 486 p.
24. Same source reports about Galeocerdo cuvier (~300 cm TL) that was captured somewhere off the coast of Indonesia with an entire crocodile (were likely Crocodylus porosus, ~200 cm TL) in its stomach (originally message “Hiu menelan seekor buaya”). Also it is not known, does this account demonstrate predation or scavenging.
25. Price (1877) described an fatal altercation between what were likely Caiman crocodilus and several sharks (unidentified species) in Manzanilla, Mexico. Heavy rains had displaced a number of caimans from a coastal freshwater lake into a tidal river. Once in the river, the caiman were reportedly immediately attacked by sharks. Violent battle was said to last all day and all spectacled caimans involved in the skirmish was killed. The loss of sharks unknown.
(Nifong, pers. comm., and also in his papper)
26. Somaweera et al. (2013) reported that hatchling and juvenile Crocodylus porosus and Crocodylus johnstoni inhabting tidal rivers in northern Australia are consumed by Carcharhinus taurus, Carcharhinus amboinensis and Glyphis spp (G. Allen, pers. comm.).
Somaweera, R., M. Brien, and R. Shine. 2013. The role of predation in shaping crocodilian natural history. Herpetological Monographs 27:23–51
27. These authors also mention predation by Carcharodon carcharias on adult Crocodylus acutus in Fuerte island, Colombia, referring to Medem (1981). But Medem (1981) reports only about one C. acutus individual ( 230 cm TL) that was possibly killed by a shark (not necessary C. carcharia) or another predator (e.g. Panthera onca), and mentions reports of locals about attacks by C. carcharias on C. acutus (unknown age, size and gender) with unknown results.
Medem, F. 1981. Los Crocodylia de Sur America, Volume 1: Los Crocodylia de Colombia. Colciencias, Bogotá, Colombia. 354 pp.
28. Webb and Messel (1977) attributed numerous tail amputations observed in hatchling Crocodylus porosus to possible shark attacks.
Webb, G.J.W., and H. Messel. 1977. Abnormalities and injuries in the estuarine crocodile, Crocodylus porosus. Australian Wildlife Research 4:311–319.
29. Nelson (2013) reported photographs and video detailing the discovery of the head of a Crocodylus niloticus (~350 cm TL) on a beach in St. Lucia, South Africa. Some peoples speculate that very large (~600 cm TL) Carcharodon carcharias could have delivered mortal bite.
Nelson, S.C. 2013. Was giant crocodile killed by huge shark? Head washes up on South African beach.
30. Cott (1961) reported the stomach contents of single individual Crocodylus niloticus (unknown body size) out of 32 individuals sampled from KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa, contained the remains of 2 unidentified shark species.
Cott, H.B. 1961. Scientific results of an enquiry into the ecology and economic status of the Nile Crocodile ( Crocodylus noloticus ) in Uganda and Northern Rhodesia. Transactions of the Zoological Society of London 29:211–356.
31. Sydney photographer Andrew Paice saw very large (~550 cm TL) Crocodylus porosus with a juvenile Carcharhinus leucas (~150 cm TL) clenched between its jaws.
Keartes, S. 2014. Three-legged crocodile nabs shark in Australia river.
32. Author and journalist Peter Hancock relates one story of a "Megalania" (in fact, almost certainly Crocodylus porosus, size unknown) that wandered into the ocean and attacked by Carcharodon carcharias (size unknown). The "Megalania" kills the shark and drags it to shore.
A MonsterQuest Look at Real Dragons. MonsterQuest Review.
33. At Kakadu National Park in the Northern Territory large (~500 cm TL) Crocodylus porosus been photographed with freshly caught and bitten into two pieces large (~300 cm TL) Carcharhinus leucas in jaws.
Hainke, N. 2010. Monster crocodile gobbles up a shark in Kakadu National Park.
34. Holidaymaker Peter Jones witnessed and take two photos as large (~500 cm) Crocodylus porosus catch a Carcharhinus leucas (~200-250 cm TL) in Kakadu National Park in Northern Territory, Australia.
Gayle, D. 2013. Which is toughest... shark or crocodile? Finally we have an answer, as croc eats its fishy rival.
35. Many other photos show how Crocodylus porosus catch a smaller sharks. For example, Indrek Urvet in Daly River (Northern Territory) watched as C. porosus (~400 cm TL) catch small juvenile Carcharhinus leucas (<100 cm TL).
News of the underwater world News Service - August 13, 2007 17:08 EST. No Bull: Saltwater Crocodile Eats Shark.
36. Near Mexico coast crocodile (most likely Crocodylus acutus, 250 cm TL) was harassed by “large” (size unknown) Isurus oxyrinchus. Shark inflicted several powerful bites, but crocodile continued swim with pelican carcass (Pelecanus sp.). In final, second shark (species and body size unknown; but possible I. oxyrinchus) steal prey from C. acutus, when crocodile opened mouth to protect himself from aggressive I. oxyrinchus.
(Silva, pers. comm.)
37. A 2017 documentary move "Shark-Croc Showdown" by Discovery Channel demonstrate video fragments with interaction between Crocodylus porosus individuals with simular-sized sharks (Carcharhinus spp, Negaprion acutidens, Nebrius ferrugineus). In all cases crocodiles prevailed over sharks but did not kill.
Shark-Croc Showdown|Shark Week. Discovery - Official Site.
38. In these documentary also provides information that 10% of Glyphis glyphis, Carcharhinus leucas as well as other freshwater elasmobrachians individuals have bite marks from crocodile (Crocodylus porosus and perhaps C. johnstoni) attacks.
39. C. Tricas and H. Gruber (link to Rasmussen and Schmidt) report that Negaprion brevirostris avoid smell of excreted by Crocodylus acutus chemical secretions, but not Alligator mississippiensis. C. acutus is a known predator of sharks and this is interpreted as reason of chemically aware.
Timothy C. Tricas, Samuel H. Gruber. The behavior and sensory biology of elasmobranch fishes: an anthology in memory of Donald Richard Nelson. — Springer Science & Business Media, 2013-06-29. — 596 p. — ISBN 9789401732451.
L. E. L. Rasmussen, Michael J. Schmidt Are Sharks Chemically Aware of Crocodiles? — Springer, Boston, MA, 1992. — p. 335–342. — ISBN 9781475796575, 9781475796551. — DOI:10.1007/978-1-4757-9655-1_53.
40. Similar behavior was observed in Carcharhinus leucas in 2016 documentary move "Jungle Shark" by Discovery Channel. Even large adult C. leucas (250–300 cm TL) avoid smell of chemical secretions excreted by Crocodylus acutus (taken from ~300 cm TL individual).
Jungle Shark|Shark Week. Discovery - Official Site.
41. On 30 July 2017 a pair of filmmakers (Christian Kennedy and Jadranko Silic) on a fishing charter boat off Western Australia captured footage when Crocodylus porosus (~200 cm TL) attacking and killing shark (Carcharhinus sp.,~150 cm TL) with one bite in the head.
Hooper B. 2017. Clever crocodile catches shark behind Australian fishing boat.
3. I should also add that popular media articles about head of Nile crocodile thwt was found on the South Africa beach (like this: "Did a shark decapitate this crocodile? Reptile's head discovered on beach sparks fears over huge great white?") similar to the fantasy of animal fight lovers. The head was accurately cut off by a ship propeller and just looks like the remains of dolphins, sharks, whales and other marine animals that fell under the large ship propellers:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And the other remains of this crocodile were discovered later:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if we consider the shark version we must take into account that:
а) 3.5 meter croc must weigh about 200 kg, much smaller than adult white sharks (especially if we are talking about a big female).
a) There are no evidence that this was predation and not scavenging (sharks is the most efficient marine scavengers).
4. On all videos with interactions of same-size crocodiles and sharks, crocs looks like dominant ones:
5. Why some people make claims like “crocs have low stamina”? Crocodiles have low aerobic performance (and high anaerobic performance) in comparison with warm-blooded animals, but mesothermic great white shark and especially ectothermic sharks still have lower aerobic performance. We can just compare the metabolic rate of the saltwater crocodile and the great white shark based on literature data from Seymour et al. (2012) and Ferrón (2017).
Data from Seymour et al. (2012):
*This image is copyright of its original author
Data from Ferrón (2017):
*This image is copyright of its original author
And data from The OXYGEN Table in FishBase to transformat unit of oxygen consumption to mg/kg/h:
*This image is copyright of its original author
As a result, I get 9860.1 mg/kg/hour for a crocodile and 1615.1 mg/kg/hour for a shark. It means that the standard metabolic rate of 389 kg saltwater crocodile is 6.1 times higher than the standard metabolic rate of 428 kg great white shark. We must also take into account that crocodiles have better anaerobic abilites than any other vertebrates and can survive the greatest changes of the blood pH after hibernating turtles. Data from Seymour & Bradford (1985):
Quote:Anaerobic capacity, the total amount of lactate produced during activity to exhaustion (Bennett & Licht, 1972), is properly measured by whole-body lactate analysis, which was impractical here. However, peak values of blood lactate after activity are a reasonable substitute to indicate general levels of anaerobic metabolism (Bennett, 1982). These crocodiles clearly undergo very high levels of anaerobiosis during struggling to exhaustion. Several of the larger animals had blood [lactate"] exceeding 50 mmoll/l, which are the highest values ever reported for activity-induced anaerobiosis for any animal.
...
Lactate production is accompanied by severe acidosis, which is positively massdependent (Fig. 2B). Our largest crocodile had the lowest pH (6.59) ever reported for any animal as a result of activity. Comparable levels have been obtained in A. mississippiensis following epinephrine injections (6.54; Hernandez & Coulson, 1958; Coulson & Hernandez, 1983) and in turtles during forced dives of 1 day or longer (6.53, Robin et al. 1964). The level of acidosis reported for crocodile no. 4 (pH = 6.42), accompanied by subsequent recovery, is to our knowledge unprecedented for any animal.
For comparison, bony fish have irreversible metabolic disturbances when the blood pH drops from normal 7.3 (based on rainbow trout) to 6.8-6.9. It is logical that this problem is more common for sharks because of their less effective (and slower) metabolism. E.g. mako sharks (perhaps the most active sharks) die when their blood lactate concentration is <35 mmol/L. Data from Marshall et al., 2012:
Quote:Three moribund shortfin mako sharks (Isurus oxyrinchus; excluded from all other analyses involving mako lactate values) had significantly higher lactate values (34.3±5 mmol/L) than nonmoribund mako sharks (16.7±12 mmol/L); there were no significant differences between the other blood parameters of the moribund and non-moribund mako sharks.
The pH value in the shark`s blood (both standard and after lactate accumulation) is not specified in this research, but another research suggests that the concentration of 28.9 mmol/l lactate in the Atlantic sharpnose shark corresponds to a pH value of 6.78 comparing to the normal pH value of 6.86 mmol/l.
As a result, we must conclude that crocodiles metabolically are much better adapted for physical exertions than sharks because they have better anaerobic and aerobic abilities. May be some could say that sharks spend less energy on swimming than semiaquatic animals, but this is not in the case with crocs. Crocodiles have the same coefficient of hydrodynamic efficiency as actively swimming animals (0.7-0.9) (Seebacher et al., 2003).
02-07-2019, 07:04 PM( This post was last modified: 02-07-2019, 11:19 PM by Shadow )
Here is a part of one documentary which I saw some time ago. I am not sure about final results, but they tried to use crocodile scent to scare sharks away. This footage is just a short glimpse. In the end this guy went into the cage in sea and they lured bull sharks there with baits. When crocodile scent was released to water, all sharks vanished quickly.
With crocodile scent is meant some pheromones etc. which crocodiles release time to time, was it for communication.... should check more closely how it was. Anyway results in that documentary indicated strongly, that bull sharks are afraid of crocodiles, including adults. Maybe someone knows this documentary and has more information?
(04-08-2018, 08:20 PM)epaiva Wrote: In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
At equal length, I notice that the great white shark is substantially heavier than the saltwater croc. Whereas a big salwater croc seldomly weighs more than a ton, a great white shark can reach 2 tons. Thus I think a saltwater croc cannot reasonnably threaten a big shark. Aside from the fact that a shark could move much more freely in water than any croc.
(04-08-2018, 08:20 PM)epaiva Wrote: In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
At equal length, I notice that the great white shark is substantially heavier than the saltwater croc. Whereas a big salwater croc seldomly weighs more than a ton, a great white shark can reach 2 tons. Thus I think a saltwater croc cannot reasonnably threaten a big shark. Aside from the fact that a shark could move much more freely in water than any croc.
Great White Sharks win in open deep waters and I think Crocs win in shallow waters, we have to wait until somebody films them interacting
(04-08-2018, 08:20 PM)epaiva Wrote: In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
At equal length, I notice that the great white shark is substantially heavier than the saltwater croc. Whereas a big salwater croc seldomly weighs more than a ton, a great white shark can reach 2 tons. Thus I think a saltwater croc cannot reasonnably threaten a big shark. Aside from the fact that a shark could move much more freely in water than any croc.
Great White Sharks win in open deep waters and I think Crocs win in shallow waters, we have to wait until somebody films them interacting
If these two would ever meet in the way, that both big ones, it feels easy to think, that the one biting first is the one as "winner". Then again a crock without a leg can do fine, but a shark with a fin ripped off... but maybe this thread is one of those, where maybe never seeing that kind of interaction. Who knows then again if miracle happens :)
(04-08-2018, 08:20 PM)epaiva Wrote: In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
At equal length, I notice that the great white shark is substantially heavier than the saltwater croc. Whereas a big salwater croc seldomly weighs more than a ton, a great white shark can reach 2 tons. Thus I think a saltwater croc cannot reasonnably threaten a big shark. Aside from the fact that a shark could move much more freely in water than any croc.
Great White Sharks win in open deep waters and I think Crocs win in shallow waters, we have to wait until somebody films them interacting
Yes, ok, interactions between adult Great White Sharks and Saltwater Crocs are impossible. But, with the title of this thread the question for a possible encounter is nevertheless asked isn't it ? And I simply answer that at equal length a Great White Shark is much more heavier than a Saltwater croc. An other way to state that the outcome would be in favor of the shark. As you did...
IMO, we're speaking about two apex predators and I wouldn't wish an encounter between these beasts, because it would mean that one of them wouldn't be in its element. Thus placed in a position of weakness.
I'm really not sure that "shark could move much more freely in water than any croc" if we are talking about large females of great white sharks or large ectothermic shark species. ~5.5 meter specimens demonstrate low maximum burst swimming speed (20-25 km/h) in comparison with ~3.5 meter ones (40 km/h) based on data from Ferrón (2017) paper:
*This image is copyright of its original author
In fact, the recorded burst swimming speed of the larget great white sharks is comparable to the recorded speed of adult saltwater crocodiles (up to 24-29 km/h based on data from Benga et al., 2014). I can assume that the shark can move to the depth and to the surface more freely than crocs, although Nile crocodiles are known to be able to dive up to 60 m and remain active. In addition, the sharks has neutral buoyancy (unlike bony fish, sharks do not have a swim bladder), while the crocodiles has positive or neutral negative (and can control it by hepatic-piston mechanism) and can float to the surface without swimming movements, just like a balloon with air.
Crocodiles are definitely underestimated as active predators. However, in fact crocs actively pursue fish, sea turtles and even marine mammals in deep waters:
Quote:Incredibly, this was the second time I have witnessed such a rare thing. The first time was a few years ago at Dundee Beach, near Darwin in Australia – a crocodile attacked and killed a dolphin after cornering it in a sandbank. Estuarine crocodiles are patient and very effective hunters.
Regarding the difference in size, we must take into account that crocodiles take proportionally larger prey than sharks. I think that the fight between the saltwater crocodile and the great white shark at average/maximum weights will be more controversial than at weight parity. It's hard to choose the winner for me if the shark really wants to kill the crocodile, but in most real interactions is likely that the aggressive saltie would just fight-off the great white and chase it away. Such powerful predators with destructive weapons are unlikely want to fight to the death in order to satisfy the interest of animal fight lovers.
02-08-2019, 01:45 PM( This post was last modified: 02-08-2019, 05:41 PM by Shadow )
(02-08-2019, 10:24 AM)Spalea Wrote:
(02-08-2019, 02:46 AM)epaiva Wrote:
(02-08-2019, 12:46 AM)Spalea Wrote:
(04-08-2018, 08:20 PM)epaiva Wrote: In 2014 I asked croc expert in Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) Adam Britton the next two questions attached is his answer.
Hello Adam, hope you and your family are having a very good time this days. Adam I have a few questions that I am sure you have the answer to them about Saltwater Crocodiles.
1' What is the size of largest prey taken by a Saltwater Crocodile?
2 Have a person seen Salwater Crocodilus fighting or interacting with Great White Sharks? if so what was the result of their clash?
The largest prey that saltwater crocodiles take is generally water buffalo, although only very large crocodiles can take on such powerful creatures. Generally salties take much smaller prey. There are no examples of salties taking on great white sharks that I know of, although it would be hypothetically possible I supposed, but so rare that actually finding evidence of it would be extremely unlikely. I don't rate the crocodile's chances against a good sized shark anyway. Happy New Year to you Edouard!
My personal opinion is that a Great White Shark will win if it fights with a Saltwater crocodile in open deep waters because it can move freely with out any problems but if they do in shallow waters it would be a very different result with the Salwater crocodile winning the bout. I have never seen a video or information of them interacting so we have to wait until something like that is seen and filmed by a person, I think that if they meet each other they will go their own way with out any problem.
At equal length, I notice that the great white shark is substantially heavier than the saltwater croc. Whereas a big salwater croc seldomly weighs more than a ton, a great white shark can reach 2 tons. Thus I think a saltwater croc cannot reasonnably threaten a big shark. Aside from the fact that a shark could move much more freely in water than any croc.
Great White Sharks win in open deep waters and I think Crocs win in shallow waters, we have to wait until somebody films them interacting
Yes, ok, interactions between adult Great White Sharks and Saltwater Crocs are impossible. But, with the title of this thread the question for a possible encounter is nevertheless asked isn't it ? And I simply answer that at equal length a Great White Shark is much more heavier than a Saltwater croc. An other way to state that the outcome would be in favor of the shark. As you did...
IMO, we're speaking about two apex predators and I wouldn't wish an encounter between these beasts, because it would mean that one of them wouldn't be in its element. Thus placed in a position of weakness.
Hmmmm..... crocodiles are quite comfortable in water. I wonder if there is any advantage for a shark even if on coastal area and not in the river. I agree with some, that weight difference isn´t that big here, that it would be so major factor as on dry land, when otherwise many measurements are quite same. When comparing predatory sharks to orcas for instance, there size difference is so big in every way, that it has undeniable meaning. I doubt if either one could cause so much injuries to another, that other one couldn´t flee if bitten. Leading to situation, that even if meeting and other one attacking, it would end up to it, that both disperse from situation. This is what I guess, that would happen. Just to keep it interesting while waiting if some day something happens :)
Saltwater Crocodile-Great White Shark interactions
