ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[paul cooper]

(07-25-2018, 09:18 AM)peter Wrote: GENGHIS (Vegeta San) 

The advice was to take a long break and use it to extend your knowledge on tigers and bears. You didn't, meaning you again ignored good advice as well as a permanent ban. This post again has good advice. I hope you will use it this time. Your posts, by the way, will be deleted. This post is the last response to your questions.

a - Yuku

There was a forum called Animals Versus Animals (AVA). It has many threads in which tigers and bears feature. One of them in particular ('Male brown bears are not out of the predatory reach of tigers if of similar size') is interesting.

b - Carnivora

This forum has different threads on tigers and bears as well. Most of them are a good read.

c - WildFact

Same as above. This thread has more info on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East.

d - Shaggy God

Dedicated to bears. Although a bit selective, it has good information about tigers and bears in the RFE.

e - How to approach information on tigers and bears

Russian biologists collected a lot of good information. They're the ones with firsthand experience. When you visit forums and start reading, you'll find links to the original source of scans used in posts. 

Before you read anything, open your mind. Make notes and try to falsify your convictions on tigers and bears. Distinguish between bear species, gender, age and circumstances. Try to find information about Sludskij, Sysoev, Bromley, Rukovsky, Rakov, Abramov and Krechmar (there are many more). Don't go for conclusions and eliminate preference. Also read books written by hunters and naturalists.

f - How to post

If you go for preference, stay at home. If you decide to go public and decide to join a forum, read the forum rules before you move. Respect them at all times. Accept that animosity is typical for most animal forums. This is the reason biologists only very seldom join a forum. Some posters are better informed than others, but most are kneedeep in preference and all the rest of it. This means you, informationwise, always are on your own.  

g - How to use information

If you select information fitting your convictions, you won't learn anything. If you go for the opposite, you will get to a bit of knowledge, but it will take years. When you think you are informed and join a forum, accept that most posters will go for you with everything they have. It's the old top dog game. Don't bite, as it never produces anything of value. The aim of participating is getting answers to questions.

When you're done with forums and reading, visit the Russian Far East. Beautiful place. Talk to people who know. Also talk to trainers and keepers in order to find the differences between captive and wild animals.

h - Tigers and bears

Amur tigers are very different from other subspecies. They learned to deal with wild boars and bears. And the other way round. Amur brown bears are known for their disposition. Based on what I read, I'd say there are no fixed rules of conduct. In bears and tigers, anything is possible. 

In average-sized animals (up to 200 kg. or 440 pounds), tigers dominate (2:1). In the heavyweight division, large male bears may have the edge. Half a century ago, Russian biologists thought they won 'on points'. Those interviewed by Vaillant (hunters and biologists) two decades ago agreed. Not saying that large bears always dominate tigers, but they are prepared to confront a male tiger on his kill in times of need. A tiger can hunt again. Why invest energy in a risky fight with a powerful foe with a neck circumference of 3 feet and more? Besides, there are different ways to get to Rome. Male tigers, as Vaillant said, are possessive and vindictive animals. If robbed by a large male bear, chances are there could be repercussions of some kind. My guess is that most male bears would agree. This is why it's difficult to find good information about serious encounters between adult males of both species.            

Captive Amur tigers and brown bears do not seem very different from their wild relatives. Mortal enemies. They will most definitely go for each other given half a chance. Male Amur tigers are not afraid of large® bears. The outcome of an encounter is anybody's guess. Male brown bears are powerful animals, but they tend to overplay their hand at times. This, however, is also true for tigers, especially young adult males. The tiger featuring in Sysoev's story ('Amba') had the initiative for most of the fight. Every time he attacked, the neck was targeted. When the vertebrae had almost been reached, the bear got his chance and finished the tiger. According to those who hunted them (India), young male tigers often go all-out, whereas a more experienced tiger might have retreated to return later.    

There's another, more indirect, way to get to a kind of conclusion. Tigers and bears have been neighbours for a very long time. Although tigers hunt bears for food and win most fights at kill-sites, the balance does not seem to have changed over time. One reason is that they do not affect the population. Could be different in wild boars. In the recent past, specialists stayed until all boars had been killed and eaten. Bear tigers do not annihilate their main source of food. One reason is they decided against attacking large bears, as too dangerous. Even at equal chances (1:1), it's too risky. It no doubt happens every now and then, but incidents of this nature seem to be very rare. My guess is these large bears in particular breed. 

i - To conclude

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Vegeta San is actually a different person, but i guess it doesnt matter as they both are working hand in hand. Anyways I am fascinated by your posts btw, i love reading them, keep it up. Reply