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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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Since you guys are interested in accidents with captive tigers, I know remember an accident occured 4 years ago in the zoo of Sofia (Bulgaria), @Polar. I have seen many times this male 200 kg Amur tiger called "Mardock" and last year was surprised by woman cleaner in the zoo who told me that the Mardock succeeded to escape from his cage and occured in the internal haul for predators. When a veterinary doctor arrived and tried to cool him by sleeping bullets the tiger attacked him and mauled so badly that the man than spent more than a month in the hospital, luckilly survived. I dont know the nature of his injuries but they should be quite serious in order somebody to spend a month in a hospital...
Firstly tiger was not very aggresive and walked among 20 visitors only slightly roaring to them, than he unintentionaly blocked the door exit of mother with 2 kids and probably became really agressive only when the zoo authorities tried to cool him. https://btvnovinite.bg/bulgaria/incident...ta-si.html   (04-21-2018, 02:33 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Since you guys are interested in accidents with captive tigers ... https://btvnovinite.bg/bulgaria/incidenti/tigarat-ot-stolichnija-zoopark-e-izljazal-ot-kletkata-si.html ABOUT THE AIM OF THIS THREAD This thread is dedicated to tigers. Not captive tigers, but wild tigers. The aim is to get to good information. Good information is information collected by those who know about wild tigers. A biologist is a reliable source, but so is a hunter or a villager who has lived close to tigers for most of his life. When good information from good sources is posted for a number of years, the result will be accumulation of knowledge. The result is an interesting and informing thread. THE LACK OF INFORMATION ON SIZE Over the years, the secret life of tigers has been slowly uncovered. Two centuries ago, naturalists and hunters started publishing books. After the Second World War, they were replaced by biologists. Although the curtain has been lifted to a degree, we could do with a bit more, especially in the department of size. In the period 1850-1940, hunters provided information. After their day had passed, the flow of information almost stopped. Biologists could have filled the gap, but decided to focus on issues that needed to be addressed first, like conservation, genetics, evolution and management. THE RESULT Although they produced results in the departments mentioned, size suffered. Only very few biologists and zoologists invested time in collecting new information. As not a few of them also reject most of the old records, the same old tables about length, weight and skull size pop up in nearly every article or book. I'm not saying that incorrect information rules, but biologists seem to have a somewhat limited, of not blurred, view in this department. In India and Nepal, it at times resulted in inadequate scales and not a few rough estimates. AMUR TIGERS We could discuss India and Nepal one more time, but I propose to move to Russia. A century ago, Amur tigers were common in Manchuria, the Russian Far East and most of Korea. Some of those who hunted them wrote books. In some books, tigers of great size featured. However. One has to add that information the method used to measure these mythical tigers was lacking. I also never read anything about the average total length and the skull length of wild Amur tigers. WILD AMUR TIGERS In the first decades of the previous century, Amur tigers really walked the edge. Although they recovered to a degree, they still behave as they did in the first decades of the last century. In 1992, a project was started in Russia. The joint venture (Russia and the US) resulted in a lot of good information. It has to be said that size was not forgotten. However. The samples were small and the tigers were measured 'over curves'. This method is unreliable. Apart from that, the tables had 'problem tigers', young adults (3-5 years of age) and mature tigers (6 and over). This although it must have been known that there are significant differences between age groups in big cats, especially in the skull department. As a result of the tables, the mighty Amur tiger (still up to thirteen feet and 800 pounds in some newspaper articles) emerged as a tiger of moderate size, certainly no larger than a decent male lion from South Africa. Males averaged 389 pounds, whereas females averaged about 265. As to the historical records. Slaght and his collegues also had a go at them. Most were dismissed as 'unreliable'. Although Miquelle said that male Amur tigers averaged 430 pounds, information from the Russian team (The Amur Tiger Project) confirmed that the days of the giants are past and gone. Most males today range between 375 and 465 pounds. At that weight, they average about 294 cm. (9.8), measured 'over curves', in total length. What struck most, however, is the lack of individual variation. I never saw a table with skull measurements. In that department, we, for that reason, have to make do with the info collected by V. Mazak in the seventies of the last century. V. Mazak, however is still viewed with some doubt. The reason is he admitted he had been misled by some of the old hunters. As a result, the first edition of his great book had incorrect information about the size of wild Amur tigers. CAPTIVE AMUR TIGERS It could be that captive adult male Amur tigers, as Slaght concluded, averaged 373 pounds in some parts of the world a decade ago, but in western Europe they seem quite a bit larger. Seem underlined, of course, as I never read a decent study. As a result of the lack of good data, some of our members decided to collect infomation. The tables they posted suggest that males in the US and Europe average 460-480 pounds (208,66-217,73 kg.). Not very different from the estimate of a UK-based member of AVA ('Eagle Raptor') who had quite a bit of personal experience with captive Amur tigers. In captive Amur tigers, individual variation seems to be very outspoken. Some males hardly exceed 160 kg. (354 pounds), whereas others, in excellent shape (not obese), are close to twice that weight. No wonder that many in this part of the world still think that Amur tigers are the biggest big cats by a margin. Is there good information about the size of captive male Amur tigers in the western hemisphere? No. China then? Japan? Russia? Information collected by biologists? The answer is no. And skulls? Same answer. In these circumstances, Wolverine, good information about the size of captive Amur tigers can, and should, be posted in this thread. RECORD AMUR TIGER SKULL The article posted by Betty has good information about the size of a young adult (4-year old) captive male Amur tiger. After he had been shot by the director of the zoo, the tiger was measured by (or in the presence of) a veterinarian pathologist and a forensic pathologist. The male tiger was 240 cm. in head and body length and 336,5 cm. in total length, most probably measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). In the newspaper articles I read (in German), tiger 'Altai' was estimated at 250-280 kg. (552-618 pounds). He seemed a bit longer, but not as robust as the famous Duisburg Zoo male tiger. Here's a few captive male Amur tigers similar in size: - Duisburg zoo ('Amur'); total length 320 cm. in a straight line; 110 cm. at the shoulder standing; head length 50 cm., and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Koln zoo ('Altai'); total length (most probably in a straight line) 336,5 cm.; weight (estimated) 250-280 kg., and GSL about 430 mm.:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Braunschweig zoo ('Jeltzin') - weight 270 kg.:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Blackpool zoo; weight 611 pounds (277,15 kg.):  *This image is copyright of its original author - Unknown Chinese zoo (recently posted by Betty); look at the size of the head:  *This image is copyright of its original author - China; a very robust male Amur tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Prague zoo ('Amur'); total length 319 cm. in a straight line and 337 cm. 'over curves'; standing height 104-105 cm.; weight (estimated 250-260 kg.) and GSL 377 mm.:  *This image is copyright of its original author More important than that are the photographs in the article. The reason is they have a scale. These photographs enable readers to get to an estimate on the size of the skull. In my opinion, the skull is about 430 mm. in greatest total length and 284 mm. in zygomatic width. Much larger than all other measurements of Amur tiger skulls. Is the Koln zoo tiger unique in the size department (total length and weight)? Based on what I saw, my guess is no. Is the skull unique? It is much longer than all other skulls measured by biologists and zoologists. The longest accepted is the skull of 383 mm. measured by V. Mazak. Here's a few large skulls: - Manchuria; 406,40 mm. (V. Mazak - unconfirmed):  *This image is copyright of its original author - Skull of a captive tiger (not an Amur tiger); GSL 400,05 mm.; zygomatic width 292,10 mm.:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Nepal (The Sauraha tiger); no measurements available, but the owner (312 cm. in total length measured in a more or less s traight line) bottomed a 600-pound scale the last time he was weighed:  *This image is copyright of its original author - Koln zoo: young adult male Amur tiger; GSL about 430 mm.; width about 284 mm.:  *This image is copyright of its original author Was the skull of the Koln zoo tiger measured by a biologist? No. But the photograph enables anyone interested to get to a more or less educated guesstimate. The reason is the photograph has a scale. Is it good enough to cross the threshold? Yes. The reason is the scale in the photograph. CAPTIVE TIGERS And what about captive Amur tigers and accidents in zoos, private facilities and circuses? The information available strongly suggests that captive big cats are dangerous anywhere. Over the years, I visited a lot of facilities that had big cats. I noticed time and again that most people working in these facilities (zoos included) crossed the line. This topic, however, should be discussed in the captive animals department. (04-22-2018, 10:20 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT THE AIM OF THIS THREAD The thematic of this thread Peter in my humble opinion is not very clearly defined. Title "Tiger - on the edge of extinction" stress more on issues of ecology and protection of tigers and there is no much connection to the issues of size and weight of the captive tigers. Other option for thread is "Panthera tigris - general information". The reason that scientists in last decades don't collect much data about size and weight of the tigers is that such questions as "who is larger who is stronger?" despite the fact that they are most interesting for the general public play insignificant role in overall tiger biology. No doubts of course that will be very interesting to know what are actual measurments and weights of modern tigers, especially Royal Bengal tigers.  (04-22-2018, 08:54 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(04-22-2018, 10:20 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT THE AIM OF THIS THREAD Weird, since the size of the Pleistocene lions has been extensively studied, yet the Pleistocene tigers have often been neglected by the scientific community. 
The fossil lions are in North America and Europe/Russia, which are more accessible to first world countries with dedicated researchers, while tiger fossils are in humid tropical and sub-tropical Asia with developing countries trying to catch up. Their researchers need assistance from the West so it's no surprise that we see a lot more output on fossil lions than fossil tigers. But, hopefully we are seeing more and more information on tigers than before, and this trend should continue into the future.
(04-23-2018, 05:57 AM)Richardrli Wrote: The fossil lions are in North America and Europe/Russia, which are more accessible to first world countries with dedicated researchers, while tiger fossils are in humid tropical and sub-tropical Asia with developing countries trying to catch up. Their researchers need assistance from the West so it's no surprise that we see a lot more output on fossil lions than fossil tigers. But, hopefully we are seeing more and more information on tigers than before, and this trend should continue into the future. V. Mazak and the one he inspired, J.H. Mazak, did a lot of work. V. Mazak, P. van Bree and C. Groves wrote a paper on Bali tiger skulls quite some time ago. Christiansen published a few measurements of captive Amur tigers and so did a few students. The only one who distinguished between male and female and wild and captive is J.H. Mazak, but he too entered the log department not that long ago. What is needed is a thorough overview distinguishing betweeen old (up to 1970) and recent; male and female; wild and captive, and age groups. A description with photographs would do. In a follow-up, the differences between old and new, male and female and captive and wild could be addressed. Additional information (length, weight, age and other details) would be much appreciated. For some reason, biologists have neglected big cat size. It could be that the factors you mentioned resulted in a zero-priority policy, but a thorough description of (the development of) size (over time) as well as individual variation is, and should be, a vital part of any study. It also is important for those involved in conservation, evolution and genetics. How describe the evolution (and possible future) of a species if reliable information enabling just that is lacking or wanting, if not incorrect?  (04-24-2018, 04:40 AM)peter Wrote:(04-23-2018, 05:57 AM)Richardrli Wrote: The fossil lions are in North America and Europe/Russia, which are more accessible to first world countries with dedicated researchers, while tiger fossils are in humid tropical and sub-tropical Asia with developing countries trying to catch up. Their researchers need assistance from the West so it's no surprise that we see a lot more output on fossil lions than fossil tigers. But, hopefully we are seeing more and more information on tigers than before, and this trend should continue into the future. On the unusual abrasion groove of the lower canine of an Amur tiger Abstract： Reported here is a case unusual abrasion of the teeth of an Amur tiger 18 years old. The buccal side of both lower canines have strong and deep trench-like wear, made by a bad bite between upper canines. The skull is 380mm long and 284mm wide. (Based on the Scale ruler, I speculate that the length of the upper canine tooth exceeds 9.5cm.)  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.gmnh.pref.gunma.jp/wp-content/uploads/bulletin20_3.pdf
Maybe the damage of the lower canine was caused by constantly chewing the steel bars of its cage.
BETTY
Another good find. Many thanks. I assume the article is in Japanese. Can you translate the measurements? I'm in particular interested in greatest skull length; condylobasal length; zygomatic width; rostrum width; height at the orbit; length of the upper canine (tip to insertion); width of the upper canine at the insertion; pm4; age; weight cleaned; background, place of birth and cause of death. Can you, in order to prevent errors, give the source, authors and date of publication again? Appreciated.
Peter, what is your estimated rostrum width for the skull of the Koln zoo man-killer? It looks like 122.74mm, can you confirm?
(04-25-2018, 12:45 PM)Richardrli Wrote: Peter, what is your estimated rostrum width for the skull of the Koln zoo man-killer? It looks like 122.74mm, can you confirm? Almost (122,725 mm.). Remember the measurements I got to didn't include the distortion caused by the slope. The skull is low close to the occiput and more elevated at the rostrum. The slope (not visible on the photograph) will decrease the length somewhat. Another factor to consider is asymmetry. The skull seems to be 'pulled' to the right (typical for quite many skulls of captive big cats), which also slightly decreases the length. As a result, the distance from tip to tip (not including the teeth) could be a tad longer than it seems. The length I got to (slightly over 430mm.), therefore, is at the lower end of the range. It is the longest tiger skull I know of by a margin. The width (about 284 mm.) doesn't seem to fit the length, but the tiger only was four years of age when he was shot (width is related to age) and skulls of captive Amur tigers often are not as wide (and robust) as skulls of (captive) Indian tigers. EDIT In the past years, I more than once said that size has been neglected in big cats. Tigers in particular are affected. The lack of good information resulted in incorrect conclusions in many books and articles. It also resulted in a lack of understanding. Although the reasons are well understood, this problem needs to be addressed. The young adult male Amur tiger from the Koln zoo, although large, isn't the only large captive Amur tiger. I saw larger tigers and I'm also sure I saw captive Amur tigers with larger and wider heads. This means that 430 mm. most probably isn't the upper limit. We need to have more information on the difference between wild and captive tigers and we also need yo know more about the factors affecting (skull and body) size in tigers (and other big cats, for that matter).
Tiger attacks against humans spike in winter in UP’s conflict-ridden Terai region: report
WTI veterinarians and rescue team tend to an adult tigress rescued from being lynched in the North Kheri Forest Division of the Dudhwa Tiger Reserve in Uttar Pradesh's Terai region on April 13. Photo courtesy: Wildlife Trust of India *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/tiger-attacks-against-humans-spike-in-winter-in-ups-conflict-ridden-terai-region-report/article23635937.ece
Indochinese Tiger
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.matichon.co.th/news/421612 (04-26-2018, 04:03 AM)peter Wrote:(04-25-2018, 12:45 PM)Richardrli Wrote: Peter, what is your estimated rostrum width for the skull of the Koln zoo man-killer? It looks like 122.74mm, can you confirm? The rostrum of this tiger skull looks much broader, and I think the rostrum of the skull can be estimated with the ratio of the canine alveoli.  *This image is copyright of its original author
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