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peter · 12-13-2023, 01:15 PM

PC

I read the book of Tony de Almeida ('Jaguar hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia', Safari Press, 1990) some years ago. It's informative and, datawise, very reliable. He's one of the few who measured jaguars in the correct way ('between pegs'). De Almeida lived and breathed jaguars from day one, but Batalov compares. As this thread is about wild tigers, his opinion has quite a bit of weight. When he talks about the correlation between prints, heels and weights, you pay attention.

The topic turned to skulls, because the information needed to discuss the (average) length and weight of today's wild Amur tigers just isn't there. This means those interested have no option but to use the same (old) sources to get to the same conclusions time and again. That's still apart from the countless discussions about the reliability of both historic and recent records and the method used to measure wild big cats today ('over curves'). Meaning we're going nowhere.

There are, in other words, good reasons to decide for a different approach (referring to indirect information about the size of wild Amur tigers). I opted for captive Amur tigers and skulls and started with captive Amur tigeres about a year ago. The result was a bit disappointing. The reason, again, was a lack of accurate information.

In the skull department, things are different. One reason is I started measuring skulls about a quarter of a century ago, meaning I already have a lot of information. Another is many articles about big cat skulls have been published in the last two decades.

Another advantage of skulls is they're still here. Furthermore, skulls are measured in the same way all over the globe. The method used is reliable, meaning different people measuring the same skull will produce very similar results.

The only problem is some skulls tend to disappear every now and then. With 'some', I mean large skulls in particular. Just after our former member 'WaveRiders', loaded with knowledge (and contacts), left, he told me the largest skull Mazak measured (I'm referring to the skull of a Manchurian tiger in Berlin) was gone. And he was right, I later learned. The second largest, very close in all respects and also from Manchuria, is also gone. I heard more stories about large skulls disappearing from collections.

Anyhow.

The only reliable table (referring to the size of wild Amur tigers today), as far as I know, is the one in a document published in 2005. I'm referring to the table with information about tigers of 3 years and older captured in the Sichote-Alin Biosphere Reserve and it's surroundings in the period 1992-2004. It said 'adult' males averaged 294 cm in total length measured 'over curves'. I don't know how they got to the average of 176,4 kg, but assume it was the correct average.

However.

Miquelle, a few years later, said male Amur tigers averaged about 430 pounds (195 kg). Guate, following the proceedings, got to 420 about a decade later and my average was 185 kg (referring to a post in this thread). Guate, still closely following the proceedings, recently concluded it could be closer to 200 kg (442 pounds). The averages (176,4-200 kg for males in the period 1992-2023) are largely based on the table published in 2005. Although reliable information was added later, the sample still is quite small. Furthermore, it's from a few districts only.

A few years ago, rumours about large males in northeastern China and the Khabarovsk Krai emerged. Feng Limin, in a recent video, said some tigers have been weighed in northeastern China. The two heaviest reached (or exceeded) 250 kg. A young adult male arrested for attacking a car was 225 kg. Maybe he, as you said, was loaded, but that isn't the point. The point is northeastern China, in spite of the limited population (about 60 individuals), seems to produce heavy tigers.

Batalov said there is a correlation between the width of the heel and the weight of a tiger. In most wild adult males, the heel width ranges between 10,5-12,0 cm. A heel width of 12,0 cm is considered as 'large'. Batalov thought 'Odor', who had heel width of 12,0 cm, was close to 200 kg. Most males he knew ranged between 160-200 kg, but some might have been heavier. Gotvansky, in the Anyuysky National Park, measured prints with heel widths ranging between 13,5-16,0 cm in the period 2015-2022.

Was Gotvansky unable to measure a print in the correct way? Did Feng Limin decide to misinform the public? Were tigers captured in the period 1992-2004 not as heavy as those seen today? Is Dr. Lukarevsky wrong?

What to conclude?

All I can say is captive male Amur tigers average about 495 pounds. Those I consider to be 'in the know', however, told me a typical adult male is about 550 pounds in his prime, whereas a large one exceeds that mark by 50-100 pounds.

What to make of that regarding their wild relatives? There's reliable information about the weight of both captive and wild Indian and Sumatran tigers. It suggests wild and captive tigers are two very different animals.

APEX

Yet another good find. Many thanks. The information of Dr. Victor Lukarensky is interesting. If you're able to reach him, see if he's willing to answer a few questions.

The first question is why the difference between his average and that of others is so pronounced. The second is if there are differences in size between regions or districts. The third is why individual variation is so pronounced. Another question is if wild Amur tigers are different from their captive relatives and, if so, in what respects. I don't doubt you have a few questions yourself. I would be interested in what he knows about the way tigers and brown bears interact.

Lukarevsky apparently worked with Miquelle. If Lukarevsky says adult males average well over 200 kg, it's likely Miquelle knows as well. Maybe it's best to contact Miquelle yourself. Another option is to contact Kerley, Goodrich or Kolchin. Ask them what they think about the table published in 2005 and Lukarevsky's opinion. We're very interested.

Pckts · 12-13-2023, 10:05 PM

Quote:I read the book of Tony de Almeida ('Jaguar hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia', Safari Press, 1990) some years ago. It's informative and, datawise, very reliable. He's one of the few who measured jaguars in the correct way ('between pegs'). De Almeida lived and breathed jaguars from day one, but so did Batalov and his department is wild Amur tigers. This thread is about wild tigers, meaning Batalov's opinion has quite a bit of weight. When he talks about prints, heels and weights, you pay attention.

He spoke about estimated print size but with regards to the exaggeration of print size dependent on substance they are held within Almeida said it clearly. And if we are to compare Resumes when it comes to big cat size, measurements and protocols there is probably no one who can surpass Almeida. Few can be held in the same regard but that's a small handful and certainly not Batalov. You are talking about a man that has spent his life capturing and measuring cats, that's not a skill utilized today.
But this isn't about who's resume is better, the point was that soft surfaces embellish print size and that holds true. Like I stated, this is something that's documented by numerous people not just Almeida, you simply asked for how it pertained to an individual cat and I presented that.

Quote:A few years ago, rumours about large males in northeastern China and the Khabarovsk Krai emerged. A few years ago, in a video, Feng Limin said tigers had been weighed in northeastern China. The two heaviest reached or exceeded 250 kg. A young adult male arrested for attacking a car was 225 kg. Loaded, you said. But that isn't the point. The point is northeastern China, in spite of the limited population, seems to produce heavy male tigers.

Unfortunately these aren't presented with valid data to go along with their claims. I'm not questioning the source but it's still 2nd hand and no protocols, measurements, identification or dates are there. Even the 225kg Tiger isn't based off scientific fact more so than it is based off a quote from an article which we've seen can be inconclusive or misleading.

If a population produces heavy tigers or not requires exceptional proof, if we want to speculate, that's fine it's no different than me claiming Kaziranga Tigers are the largest Tigers alive. I don't have verifiable proof but I do have eye witness claims and hypothesis formed from an understanding of what separates their terrain from Bengals elsewhere.
The same question should be asked for this N.E. Chinese population, what about their habitat would allow them to grow larger than anywhere else?

Quote:Batalov said there is a correlation between the width of the heel and the weight of a tiger. In most wild adult males, the heel width ranges between 10,5-12,0 cm. A heel width of 12,0 cm is considered as 'large'. Batalov thought 'Odor', who had heel width of 12,0 cm, was close to 200 kg. He saw a print with a heel width of 13,0 cm in 2013. Gotvansky, in the Anyuysky National Park, measured prints with heel widths ranging between 14,0-16,0 cm in the period 2015-2022. That's still apart from the male known as 'The Beast', who left a print with a heel width of 13,5 cm.

Unfortunately this is an estimation based off a standard Amur Tiger size. Not taking into account that a larger print doesn't confirm a larger cat but obviously can, it's not something to base a fact off of.
How about Batalov himself, how many captures does he have under his belt? Tigers weighed, locations of these captures?
I have seen his camera trap videos and read his statements but if we're going to talk about size it should be done so by people who've performed the task.
I'm not saying he has or hasn't but I'm not privy to those and if he has, I'd love to see the results.

Quote:And then, out of nowhere, Apex posted information about an unknown, but very experienced, Russian tiger biologist. He said adult wild male Amur tigers today average 220-240 kg. A very large male might exceed 280 kg (618 pounds). Lukarevsky's info is quite precise, suggesting he really was there when males were weighed.

That is a big presumption and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

In closing, the point I made holds true. A pug mark is great, it can definitely help us id a cat and possibly associate it's size but it can be exaggerated depending on terrain and the sizes mentioned are of a normal range. I'm certainly not saying there aren't larger Amurs than the ones captured but I'm not ready to agree that they are larger now than the past nor am I ready to say one population is larger than another without understanding the differences that would contribute to that growth.

peter · 12-15-2023, 12:09 PM

(12-13-2023, 10:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:
Quote:I read the book of Tony de Almeida ('Jaguar hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia', Safari Press, 1990) some years ago. It's informative and, datawise, very reliable. He's one of the few who measured jaguars in the correct way ('between pegs'). De Almeida lived and breathed jaguars from day one, but so did Batalov and his department is wild Amur tigers. This thread is about wild tigers, meaning Batalov's opinion has quite a bit of weight. When he talks about prints, heels and weights, you pay attention.
He spoke about estimated print size but with regards to the exaggeration of print size dependent on substance they are held within Almeida said it clearly. And if we are to compare Resumes when it comes to big cat size, measurements and protocols there is probably no one who can surpass Almeida. Few can be held in the same regard but that's a small handful and certainly not Batalov. You are talking about a man that has spent his life capturing and measuring cats, that's not a skill utilized today.
But this isn't about who's resume is better, the point was that soft surfaces embellish print size and that holds true. Like I stated, this is something that's documented by numerous people not just Almeida, you simply asked for how it pertained to an individual cat and I presented that.

Quote:A few years ago, rumours about large males in northeastern China and the Khabarovsk Krai emerged. A few years ago, in a video, Feng Limin said tigers had been weighed in northeastern China. The two heaviest reached or exceeded 250 kg. A young adult male arrested for attacking a car was 225 kg. Loaded, you said. But that isn't the point. The point is northeastern China, in spite of the limited population, seems to produce heavy male tigers.

Unfortunately these aren't presented with valid data to go along with their claims. I'm not questioning the source but it's still 2nd hand and no protocols, measurements, identification or dates are there. Even the 225kg Tiger isn't based off scientific fact more so than it is based off a quote from an article which we've seen can be inconclusive or misleading.

If a population produces heavy tigers or not requires exceptional proof, if we want to speculate, that's fine it's no different than me claiming Kaziranga Tigers are the largest Tigers alive. I don't have verifiable proof but I do have eye witness claims and hypothesis formed from an understanding of what separates their terrain from Bengals elsewhere.
The same question should be asked for this N.E. Chinese population, what about their habitat would allow them to grow larger than anywhere else?

Quote:Batalov said there is a correlation between the width of the heel and the weight of a tiger. In most wild adult males, the heel width ranges between 10,5-12,0 cm. A heel width of 12,0 cm is considered as 'large'. Batalov thought 'Odor', who had heel width of 12,0 cm, was close to 200 kg. He saw a print with a heel width of 13,0 cm in 2013. Gotvansky, in the Anyuysky National Park, measured prints with heel widths ranging between 14,0-16,0 cm in the period 2015-2022. That's still apart from the male known as 'The Beast', who left a print with a heel width of 13,5 cm.
Unfortunately this is an estimation based off a standard Amur Tiger size. Not taking into account that a larger print doesn't confirm a larger cat but obviously can, it's not something to base a fact off of.
How about Batalov himself, how many captures does he have under his belt? Tigers weighed, locations of these captures?
I have seen his camera trap videos and read his statements but if we're going to talk about size it should be done so by people who've performed the task.
I'm not saying he has or hasn't but I'm not privy to those and if he has, I'd love to see the results.

Quote:And then, out of nowhere, Apex posted information about an unknown, but very experienced, Russian tiger biologist. He said adult wild male Amur tigers today average 220-240 kg. A very large male might exceed 280 kg (618 pounds). Lukarevsky's info is quite precise, suggesting he really was there when males were weighed.

That is a big presumption and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

In closing, the point I made holds true. A pug mark is great, it can definitely help us id a cat and possibly associate it's size but it can be exaggerated depending on terrain and the sizes mentioned are of a normal range. I'm certainly not saying there aren't larger Amurs than the ones captured but I'm not ready to agree that they are larger now than the past nor am I ready to say one population is larger than another without understanding the differences that would contribute to that growth.

From the top down.

We don't need field experts and peer-reviewed documents to conclude the size of a print will be affected by the conditions. There's also no need to question the knowledge and ability of experienced trackers and biologists, meaning they know as well and also meaning the information of Gotvansky is reliable.

As to Almeida and Batalov. It's very likely Almeida is unmatched in the department of size, but Batalov weighed many bears and tigers.

Feng Limin is a researcher leading a team of experts. His collegues informed him about the two male tigers captured and weighed. They were precise and so was Limin in the video. He corrected the interviewer and said the heaviest of these two was 270 kg. The information is reliable, but there's no peer-reviewed document about the size of tigers in northeastern China. The tigers he referred to are not in my tables for this reason, but that doesn't mean I doubt his info.

His information doesn't compare to the info from Kaziranga though. There's a big difference between a tiger biologist talking about tigers that have been weighed (northeastern China) in a video on one hand and guesstimates of photographers, rangers and biologists about tigers that have not been weighed on the other (Kaziranga). Apples and oranges.

Agreed on the conclusions in the last paragraph of your edited post: more information is needed to get to an opinion.

Apex Titan · 12-19-2023, 08:10 PM

@Pckts

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Pckts · 12-19-2023, 10:01 PM

(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Apex Titan · 12-20-2023, 08:13 PM

(12-19-2023, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.
So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.
And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Lukarevsky never weighed those two particular "largest male" tigers that he mentioned in his message. He never said that he's never captured or weighed large male tigers before. There's a difference.

Quote:And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

I see where you're coming from and you have a point. But his statement does suggest that he clearly thinks the weight data published by the Siberian Tiger Project is inconclusive, wrong and limited. Hence why he thinks the true average weight of an adult male is significantly higher.

Quote:There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this
"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

The reporter asked: "How much does an adult male Amur tiger weigh in the wild?"

Feng Limin said: "In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying? Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source? Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

Quote:I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?

Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

TheHyenid76 · 12-21-2023, 09:35 PM

Incredible lecture by Dr Ullas Karanth on tiger conservation, ecology, behavior and he even gives some of his personal anecdotes.

Tiger, Science and Society: A talk by Ullas Karanth

Pckts · 12-22-2023, 12:42 AM

(12-20-2023, 08:13 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(12-19-2023, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.
So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.
And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Lukarevsky never weighed those two particular "largest male" tigers that he mentioned in his message. He never said that he's never captured or weighed large male tigers before. There's a difference.

Quote:And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

I see where you're coming from and you have a point. But his statement does suggest that he clearly thinks the weight data published by the Siberian Tiger Project is inconclusive, wrong and limited. Hence why he thinks the true average weight of an adult male is significantly higher.

Quote:There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this
"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

The reporter asked: "How much does an adult male Amur tiger weigh in the wild?"

Feng Limin said: "In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying? Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source? Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

Quote:I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?

Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

Quote:That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

And the article I posted is from 2019 not to mention there has been almost 0 publication or verification of any new weights.

The 250/270kg cats again come with no proof nor first hand details.

Lastly, the translation is just that, a translation, you don't know what it implies or if it's even accurate. It was no different than when Joker Portuguese translation was skinny but that wasn't what was actually stated about him.
These are imperfect translation without any context or detail.

For instance, the article posted specifically states these cats are "measured" using AI tools to estimate dimensions and weight, so is that what he's "personally" seen? That would also be considered "scientific." You see, these are details that are lost not to mention his stated experience or lack there of certainly leaves doubt to 1st hand field measurements.

Quote:"In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

"Come across" in what sense?
There are numerous details and specifics missing.
What happened to the 270kg mention?

Quote:Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying? Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source? Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

You again are making conclusions without providing valid proof.
That absolute only thing provided with regards to Fengs actual experience was that he had never seen a wild tiger in person and they are measured using photo trap AI. Everything else is vague, 2nd hand and without details. Could he possible have more 1st hand knowledge, sure but that isn't provided nor does that correlate with the claims you're making.
Be careful not to confuse someone who works with wild animals as an expert in measuring and weighing wild animals. There is a vast amount of different expertise within these organizations and trying to read between the lines to come to conclusions that suit a narrative will only get you in trouble. We've seen it here time and time again, experts quoted, weights claimed, ages, sizes capture dates, all wrong no matter the source we naively determined to be reliable.

Quote:As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

Genetics is important but only goes so far, you see cats from the same litter that are bigger or smaller than one another. What is going to matter is Water access, Weather, Prey biomass and type and terrain, competition and so on. China, which only has a very small population will already start behind the 8 ball since the higher the density, the more likely to see bigger cats. If there is a lack of competition, usually smaller cats can maintain territories with out being pushed out by younger, healthier cats.

Quote:STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

They measured heel widths of 12.8cm and this was from an actual heel, not a pug mark in the snow. And like I've already shown, pug marks in the snow will embellish the actual size of the heel width. And mind you, that is the largest heel width they saw, that means all others were smaller and thus in the same exact range as STPs captures.
And to dive even further, trying to correlate heel width to body weight isn't exact. For instance, you had a male with a heel width of 12cm's that weighed 166kg and another 11.5cm's that weighed 192kg, another with a width of 12cm's that weighed 175kgs and another with a width of 10cm's that weighed 180kg.

Quote:And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

No, you can't guarantee me anything since I've already shown the lack of correlation between heel size and weight as well as the difference between heel width measured first hand and from a print.
The claim of "similar in size" means what exactly? Bears and Tigers are close in size, generally the bear will be taller while the Tiger will be longer.

Quote:And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

You again are making assumptions of what is claimed or meant to say. He's personally seen what?
Camera Trap images, measurements taken, darted or killed tigers, videos? What exactly has he "seen?" and what exactly did he mean when he said what he said and someone claimed to translate it correctly?

peter · 12-25-2023, 06:32 PM

ABOUT TIGERS AND HUMANS IN THE KHABAROVSK KRAI IN THE SPRING OF 2023

We've been discussing the size of tigers in the Khabarovsk Krai, but it seems tigers living in that part of the Russian Federation have other things on their mind. Meaning there's trouble. Before entering that department, it doesn't seem superfluous to start with a bit of context.

At the turn of the century, wild tigers in Asia were walking the edge. Of extinction, that is. The attempt to keep them here resulted in a lot of publicity, research, quite a few meetings, new reserves and more cooperation between countries that still have a few wild tigers. In the end, it was decided to try to double the number of wild tigers within a decade.

The Russian government, fully aware of the status of the iconic Amur tiger, decided to declare tiger conservation a priority. It had a result. New reserves and national parks (like the Anyuysky National Park) were created, the legal framework to deal with poachers was adapted and more research was conducted. Today, most of those in the know think there are about 650-750 wild Amur tigers in the Russian Far East. A remarkable achievement without doubt.

Tigers are apex predators, meaning they need a complete and healthy (referring to enough room, cover, water and prey animals) ecosystem to survive. The Russian Far East offers all of it and Amur tigers responded, meaning the population increased. As a result, they, once again, started moving north (to the southern districts of the Khabarovsk Krai), west (towards Trans Baikal), and south (towards the northeastern districs of northeastern China). In China, like in the Russian Federation, tiger conservation was declared a priority. A large new reserve was created, the local population was asked to assist and a lot of research was conducted. Today, there are about 50-70 Amur tigers in northeastern China. Miquelle thinks northeastern China could accomodate up to 300 tigers in the near future. Tiger numbers also increased in the southern districts of the Khabarovsk Krai. Today, there are at least 140 tigers in that part of the Russian Far East.

Living with wild tigers isn't easy at the best of times, especially if they have been absent for a long period of time. This means it's important to inform the local population. Up to 2015 or thereabout, things went quite well meaning the number of conflicts between tigers and humans was relatively low. When the number of tigers kept growing and the conditions quite suddenly deteriorated, however, the number of conflicts sharply increased. There are many reasons, but two seem to stand out.

The first of these is volatile natural conditions. In the Russian Far East, conditions change from year to year. Not seldom, they're quite violent. In the second half of the second decade of this century, there was an outbreak of the African swine plague. As a result, the wild boar population collapsed. For tigers, this was a big problem. Five years later, the number of wild boars is still very low. More often than before, tigers, in order to make ends meet, enter villages to hunt dogs. As a result, the number of confrontations with humans increased. Most unfortunately, there have been accidents with a fatal outcome.

The second, more severe, problem is logging. More logging results in more (logging) roads, meaning tiger country will open up. One direct result is more accidents and another is more poaching. In one winter close to the village of Arsenyevo, 3 tigers were killed by cars (and trucks). Another was found floating in a river close to the village. Another, more indirect, result of logging is prey animals leave for greener pastures. The reason is logging firms focus on the most valuable trees. Over time, this will result in less forest products. Less prey animals leave tigers with less resources, meaning they need to invest more energy in finding more alert prey animals. Adults seem to be able to cope, but youngsters, including young adults, pay. And they pay hard. If tigers struggle for a long period of time, chances are desperation enters at one stage or another. If it does, chances are humans will be affected sooner or later.

Here's (the link to) an interesting article (written by Irina Kravtsova and published by the Novaja Gazeta Europe in April 2023) about the situation in the Khararovsk Krai. Tiger authorities (like Batalov, Kolchin, Lukarevsky and a few others) feature. It's a good read that has a few links to other articles for extras:

https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/04...me-away-en

The message, to keep it short, is there's a problem in the southern districts of the Khabarovsk Krai. Logging is a big part of it, but the African swine plague made it much more acute. As the situation (referring to a lack of prey animals in particular) has been lasting for a number of years now, it had an effect. One could say too many tigers compete for too few prey animals. Although youngsters in particular pay, adults are feeling the pressure as well. This is the reason (desperate) tigers visit villages more often than 5 year ago and it's the reason the number of conflicts has tripled in that period. It's important to address the problem, because it affects the support needed to succeed.

I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year!

Apex Titan · 01-02-2024, 09:04 PM

(12-22-2023, 12:42 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-20-2023, 08:13 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(12-19-2023, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way.

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.
So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.
And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Lukarevsky never weighed those two particular "largest male" tigers that he mentioned in his message. He never said that he's never captured or weighed large male tigers before. There's a difference.

Quote:And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion.

I see where you're coming from and you have a point. But his statement does suggest that he clearly thinks the weight data published by the Siberian Tiger Project is inconclusive, wrong and limited. Hence why he thinks the true average weight of an adult male is significantly higher.

Quote:There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it.

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this
"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

The reporter asked: "How much does an adult male Amur tiger weigh in the wild?"

Feng Limin said: "In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying? Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source? Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

Quote:I will ask again, what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?

Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

Quote:That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."
And the article I posted is from 2019 not to mention there has been almost 0 publication or verification of any new weights.

The 250/270kg cats again come with no proof nor first hand details.

Lastly, the translation is just that, a translation, you don't know what it implies or if it's even accurate. It was no different than when Joker Portuguese translation was skinny but that wasn't what was actually stated about him.
These are imperfect translation without any context or detail.

For instance, the article posted specifically states these cats are "measured" using AI tools to estimate dimensions and weight, so is that what he's "personally" seen? That would also be considered "scientific." You see, these are details that are lost not to mention his stated experience or lack there of certainly leaves doubt to 1st hand field measurements.

Quote:"In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

"Come across" in what sense?
There are numerous details and specifics missing.
What happened to the 270kg mention?

Quote:Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying? Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source? Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?
You again are making conclusions without providing valid proof.
That absolute only thing provided with regards to Fengs actual experience was that he had never seen a wild tiger in person and they are measured using photo trap AI. Everything else is vague, 2nd hand and without details. Could he possible have more 1st hand knowledge, sure but that isn't provided nor does that correlate with the claims you're making.
Be careful not to confuse someone who works with wild animals as an expert in measuring and weighing wild animals. There is a vast amount of different expertise within these organizations and trying to read between the lines to come to conclusions that suit a narrative will only get you in trouble. We've seen it here time and time again, experts quoted, weights claimed, ages, sizes capture dates, all wrong no matter the source we naively determined to be reliable.

Quote:As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.
Genetics is important but only goes so far, you see cats from the same litter that are bigger or smaller than one another. What is going to matter is Water access, Weather, Prey biomass and type and terrain, competition and so on. China, which only has a very small population will already start behind the 8 ball since the higher the density, the more likely to see bigger cats. If there is a lack of competition, usually smaller cats can maintain territories with out being pushed out by younger, healthier cats.

Quote:STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.
They measured heel widths of 12.8cm and this was from an actual heel, not a pug mark in the snow. And like I've already shown, pug marks in the snow will embellish the actual size of the heel width. And mind you, that is the largest heel width they saw, that means all others were smaller and thus in the same exact range as STPs captures.
And to dive even further, trying to correlate heel width to body weight isn't exact. For instance, you had a male with a heel width of 12cm's that weighed 166kg and another 11.5cm's that weighed 192kg, another with a width of 12cm's that weighed 175kgs and another with a width of 10cm's that weighed 180kg.

Quote:And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.
No, you can't guarantee me anything since I've already shown the lack of correlation between heel size and weight as well as the difference between heel width measured first hand and from a print.
The claim of "similar in size" means what exactly? Bears and Tigers are close in size, generally the bear will be taller while the Tiger will be longer.

Quote:And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?
You again are making assumptions of what is claimed or meant to say. He's personally seen what?
Camera Trap images, measurements taken, darted or killed tigers, videos? What exactly has he "seen?" and what exactly did he mean when he said what he said and someone claimed to translate it correctly?

Quote:And the article I posted is from 2019 not to mention there has been almost 0 publication or verification of any new weights.

The 250/270kg cats again come with no proof nor first hand details.

Lastly, the translation is just that, a translation, you don't know what it implies or if it's even accurate. It was no different than when Joker Portuguese translation was skinny but that wasn't what was actually stated about him.
These are imperfect translation without any context or detail.

For instance, the article posted specifically states these cats are "measured" using AI tools to estimate dimensions and weight, so is that what he's "personally" seen? That would also be considered "scientific." You see, these are details that are lost not to mention his stated experience or lack there of certainly leaves doubt to 1st hand field measurements.

No, the screen-shot (which I was referring to) of the article you posted was published in August 2016, not 2019. Look:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.science.org/content/article/...extinction.

The 2nd article you posted was from 2019.

Feng Limin's statement about the 250/270 kg Amur tiger was accurately translated by a Chinese poster named 'goodhope', who I know. I told him to accurately translate exactly what Feng Limin said, and thats what he wrote. So yes, it is an accurate translation.

Now you want me to doubt a Chinese person who's translating his own native language? The original youtube uploader of the video is also a Chinese person.

Quote:"Come across" in what sense?
There are numerous details and specifics missing.
What happened to the 270kg mention?

How am I supposed to know? I never interviewed him. Most of the time journalists never ask biologists to elaborate more.

If you want more specific details, then try contact Feng Limin yourself.

Quote:You again are making conclusions without providing valid proof.
That absolute only thing provided with regards to Fengs actual experience was that he had never seen a wild tiger in person and they are measured using photo trap AI. Everything else is vague, 2nd hand and without details. Could he possible have more 1st hand knowledge, sure but that isn't provided nor does that correlate with the claims you're making.
Be careful not to confuse someone who works with wild animals as an expert in measuring and weighing wild animals. There is a vast amount of different expertise within these organizations and trying to read between the lines to come to conclusions that suit a narrative will only get you in trouble. We've seen it here time and time again, experts quoted, weights claimed, ages, sizes capture dates, all wrong no matter the source we naively determined to be reliable.

Don't waffle here and answer the simple question. Is a major expert authority like Feng Limin lying about personally seeing a scientifically measured wild Amur tiger weighing 270 kg?

Like I said above, I trust the translation because I made sure it was accurately translated by a native Chinese speaker.

Why would Feng Limin say that? If he said that he's just "heard of" a male Amur tiger weighing 270 kg, then you have a point. But he specifically said that he's "personally seen" a tiger weighing 270 kg. I can't just dismiss such an expert's words. It's not like I posted a written quote from an article, he's on VIDEO saying this. You can hear straight from the horse's mouth.

So once again, do you think Feng Limin is lying?

Quote:Genetics is important but only goes so far, you see cats from the same litter that are bigger or smaller than one another. What is going to matter is Water access, Weather, Prey biomass and type and terrain, competition and so on. China, which only has a very small population will already start behind the 8 ball since the higher the density, the more likely to see bigger cats. If there is a lack of competition, usually smaller cats can maintain territories with out being pushed out by younger, healthier cats.

Yes, I agree with you on water access, prey biomass etc, however, that doesn't change the fact that huge male Amur tigers are being seen and traced more often in the Khabarovsk region in recent years than in the Primorye region. Take from that what you will, but based on my research (articles, reports, videos, pictures etc, I've seen), that clearly seem's to be the case.

The largest wild Amur tiger reported in recent years was from the Anyuisky National Park in the Khabarovsk region. The same national park is also home to 3 other giant male tigers.

Who were these giant male tigers reported by? Who were they tracked by? Who were they studied by? Alexey Gotvansky, a seasoned and very experienced biologist who has, more than once, measured the tracks and traces of these huge male tigers, knows which territories they occupy, and is very familiar with these particular tigers.

So despite the Primorye region having better prey density than the Khabarovsk region, the largest male tigers being seen, tracked and traced in recent years by experienced biologists and rangers, are more often reported in the Khabarovsk region.

Why is this? Genetics?

Quote:They measured heel widths of 12.8cm and this was from an actual heel, not a pug mark in the snow. And like I've already shown, pug marks in the snow will embellish the actual size of the heel width. And mind you, that is the largest heel width they saw, that means all others were smaller and thus in the same exact range as STPs captures.

And to dive even further, trying to correlate heel width to body weight isn't exact. For instance, you had a male with a heel width of 12cm's that weighed 166kg and another 11.5cm's that weighed 192kg, another with a width of 12cm's that weighed 175kgs and another with a width of 10cm's that weighed 180kg.

Your argument is badly flawed. If this is the case, then the STP biologists would have measured many heel width prints of 13.5 cm from adult male tigers. Note, most of their studies on Amur tigers was by snow-tracking tigers in winter! So how comes the large male tiger 'Dima' (206 kg) never left heel width prints of 13.5 cm in the snow?

How comes the 212 kg young adult male tiger 'Luk' never left 13.5 cm heel width prints in the snow? If the snow usually embellish's the size of tiger tracks and is an inaccurate method of measuring tiger paw prints, then the STP biologists would have found at least quite a few heel width prints of adult male tigers measuring 13.5 cm, right? According to your logic and argument, this should have been the case, but it wasn't.

In 20 years of field research and snow-tracking tigers, the STP biologists never found or measured a SINGLE heel width of 13.5 cm left in the snow by a tiger. Not one!

So why was this particular tiger known as "The Beast" who also visually, very clearly, looked enormous in size and rivaled the size of a HUGE mature male brown bear, was leaving heel width prints of 13.5 cm in both winter and summer?

Also, according to the reports/accounts that Peter found and read, Gotvansky found and measured (in summer) even larger paw prints left by other giant male tigers.

Clearly, according to highly experienced biologists such as Batalov and Gotvansky, there's a strong correlation between the heel width and size of tigers, especially in adult males.

And what was the condition of the male tiger weighing 166 kg with a heel width of 12 cm? And the health condition of the male tiger weighing 175 kg with a 12 cm heel width?

Quote:No, you can't guarantee me anything since I've already shown the lack of correlation between heel size and weight as well as the difference between heel width measured first hand and from a print.

The claim of "similar in size" means what exactly? Bears and Tigers are close in size, generally the bear will be taller while the Tiger will be longer.

Yes, I can guarantee you that, because I showed you how badly flawed your argument is.

Brown bears and Amur tigers are close in size, yes, however, that particular brown bear that the tiger "The Beast" matched in size, was stated to be a "huge", "giant" and "large" male brown bear. That isn't an ordinary adult male brown bear, it's a gigantic male who biologist Gotvansky is very familiar with.

In fact Gotvansky stated that you can't confuse that bear with anyone else because of his height and power. Add to this, Gotvansky also stated: "You can see how close the bear is to the gigantic size of a tiger." Which implies that, despite the bear's massive size, Gotvansky still thinks the tiger was slightly larger.

Ussuri brown bears are one of the largest subspecies of brown bear on earth, with some individuals rivaling the sizes/weights of huge Kodiak and Alaskan coastal brown bears. While a huge male Amur tiger can reach 300 kg (according to historical reports/records, even more), a huge male Ussuri brown bear can weigh 400 - 600 kg and probably stand 10 ft tall.

So the fact that the tiger "The Beast" was very similar in size (referring to neck girth, skull size, forequarter size, and longer body length) to a huge male Ussuri brown bear, says something.

I know this is just my speculation, but I think it's very likely that "The Beast" weighed well over 250 kg. But we'll never know.

TheHyenid76 · 01-29-2024, 02:41 PM

Images of wild tigers in their current & some of their historic range.

Bhutan, Nepal, Vietnam, Indonesia (Sumatra & Java), Malaysia, Bangladesh, China, Russia, India, Uzbekistan & Korea.

*This image is copyright of its original author

peter · 01-29-2024, 09:13 PM

HYENA

I'll get right to the point. The reason you got permission to post in this thread is you delivered interesting posts in other threads. One of them is your contribution in 'The good and bad of Wildfact'. I agree Wildfact is a bit one-sided in the department of species. The problem is most members seem interested in predators only. We could do with a bit of variation, I mean. You're invited to start a thread about, say, primates if you want to. Talk to one of our mods before you do. I'm sure you'll get the support needed.

As to your first contribution in this thread. I'm afraid it won't quite do. I'm not saying all posts in this thread have good information, but quite many do. Some of those posting invest a lot of time in preparing a post. The number of views says this approach is appreciated by many. We don't think our readers are interested in pictures that have been posted before. Those interested in good photographs know where to find them, meaning they visit Copters' great thread 'B2 etc'. One of the best in the business, we think.

My proposal is to replace the pictures with a nice read. There's plenty of interesting articles, books, documentaries, interviews and artices in newspapers. Contact me if you have an idea.

TheHyenid76 · 02-28-2024, 02:12 PM

@peter @tigerluver @Apex Titan @sanjay @Roflcopters @Pckts @anand3690 @parvez @GrizzlyClaws Guys incredible info! Bangladesh MAY have tigers outside of the Sundarbans

Historically, tigers were found throughout the entirety of Bangladesh. Now the only breeding population of tigers in Bangladesh is only found in the Bangladesh parts of Sundarbans.

From "A preliminary wildlife survey in Sangu-Matamuhuri Reserve Forest, Chittagong Hill Tracts, Bangladesh"

"We confirmed the presence of tiger in the SRF. This confirmation is based on a 14 cm pug mark that we have recorded from one of our study sites in February, 2016. We still do not have any data to show whether a resident population occurs within the CHT or if the pugmarks belong to transient individuals. In several villages, especially in the southern part of the SRF, the locals have mentioned during the interviews that they often see tigers in the area. There have been at least six different sightings of tigers in the area in the last two years. We were also told that Burmese hunters poached two tigers from the area in 2013, and at least two locals have seen mating tigers in the last two years."

Images of tiger pugmarks.

*This image is copyright of its original author

"We also recorded the presence of key tiger prey species such as Sambar, wild boar, and barking deer. These species are found in both primary forest and degraded habitat. The locals mentioned that they have seen wild boar herds of over 200 individuals. Sambars are relatively rare, but do occur throughout the SRF. Barking deer and wild boar appeared to be very common in the SRF and throughout the Sangu-Matamuhuri Valley"

Information by Dr M.H. Monirul Khan (Bangladesh's greatest contemporary zoologist who has conducted so much research on the Sundarbans tiger). Info from his book "Tigers in the Mangroves: Research and Conservation of the Tiger in the Sundarbans of Bangladesh".

"Tigers are still occasionally sighted in mixed evergreen forests in the Sangu-Matamuhuri and Kassalong-Sajek areas in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (Figure 1.3) where the status of tigers is still unknown (Sanderson et al. 2006)."

[Figure 1.2 Tiger conservation, restoration and survey landscapes in and around Bangladesh (Sanderson et al. 2006)]

*This image is copyright of its original author

[Tiger habitats in Bangladesh other than the Sundarbans : Kassalong Reserved Forest, Rangamati (top left) and Kassalong Reserved Forest, Rangamati (right), in the Chittagong Hill Tracts; and Patharia Hill Reserved Forest (Lathitila forest), Moulvibazar (bottom left) – a local hunter showing the location where he saw a tiger in the monsoon of 2008]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Information from another book of Dr Monirul Khan. From "Photographic Guide To The Wildlife Of Bangladesh"

"National animal of Bangladesh. Endangered globally, Critically Endangered nationally. Rare. Occurs mainly in SW (Sundarbans) in mangrove forest; rarely in SE (Chittagong Hill Tracts, particularly Kassalong RF and Sangu WS) and NE (vagrants in Lathitila forest) in mixed evergreen forests."

From "Of Hill Tracts, expeditions, tigers and wondrous wildlife: A Monirul Khan masterpiece". This article is written by Muntasir Akash a Bangladeshi zoologist at the University of Dhaka. His article is on the book "পার্বত্য চট্টগ্রামে প্রাণবৈচিত্র্যের সন্ধানে" (the book is available in only Bangla) which is on the biodiversity of Chittagong Hill Tracts. Link

"Skull of a Tiger photographed in 2009 which was hunted in the eastern fronteir of Bandarban a few years earlier. Photo: Monirul Khan"

*This image is copyright of its original author

Guys what do you all think!? There has been plans to reintroduce tigers to the CHT and vagrants many enter from India and Myanmar.

parvez · 02-28-2024, 10:07 PM

Interesting to hear. Thanks @TheHyenid76

peter · 02-29-2024, 04:39 AM

(02-28-2024, 10:07 PM)parvez Wrote: Interesting to hear. Thanks @TheHyenid76

Agreed, Parvez.

Good find, Hyena. If there's anyone able to find additional info, it's you. Don't keep us waiting.

SKULLS

As you may remember, I'm working on a series of tables. The reason is an interesting article about the skull differences between tigers in mainland Asia: 'Phenotypic plasticity determines differences between the skulls of tigers from mainland Asia', Cooper (DM), Yamaguchi (N), MacDonald (DW), Nanova (OG), Yudin (VG), Dugmore (AJ) and Kitchener (AC), Royal Society Open Science, 2022.

Those involved in the article think the main difference between skulls of (wild male) Amur tigers and skulls of other tiger subspecies in mainland Asia (referring to the size and shape of the sagittal crest in particular) is a result of climate: Eastern Russia has long and harsh winters, meaning Amur tigers are forced to eat frozen meat for up to six months every year. Interesting hypothesis, but can it be confirmed?

The article has a large dataset (172 skulls from 14 natural history museums), enabling those interested to get to over the details of all of them. It took a lot of time to get to a few tables and conclusions. When the job was finished, I went over the information I have in order to get to a few additional tables. All this to get to an opinion. And that's what it will be, as the dataset, although impressive, represents only a fraction of the skulls present in natural history museums.

A fraction only? I'm afraid so. Biologists involved in skulls, papers and articles often focus on a few well-known natural history museums. There are, however, many and most of them have a few tiger skulls. That's still apart from private collectors. Not all of them have a large collection, but the ones I saw do.

Another thing to consider is large skulls not seldom suddenly disappear from natural history museums, so what do we really know?

AUDIOBOOKS

Apart from investing time in skulls and tables, I like to read. Or listen. Audiobooks are relatively new. I often listen when working on a post. Although I like all his books, 'Man-eaters of Kumaon' of Jim Corbett still tops my list. Here's a few links:

Link to - 'The Man-Eater of Muktesar' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy9XRmT0B2k&t=19s
Link to - 'The Bachelor of Powalgarh' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LY08iLGdo&t=853s
Link to - 'Man-Eaters of Kumaon' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQqiec8gSE&t=63s

YouTube also has audio versions of some of the books of Kenneth Anderson:

Link to - 'The maned Tiger of Chordi' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPk_jNGiA0g
Link to - 'The Mauler of Rajnagara' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvDcGPezwus&t=26s
Link to - 'Kenneth Anderson, My Dad' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8y0Mec558

In the last video, Donald Anderson talks about his father Kenneth. Donald, as you may remember (he was discussed in a few posts some years ago), featured in some of the books written by his father. The man who posted the video, Joshua Matthew, wrote a book about Donald Anderson. It was discussed some years ago (this thread).

Joshua Matthew posted a number of videos on YouTube. In most of them, Kenneth and his son Donald, directly or indirectly (as well a those who knew both of them), feature. My advice is to watch them.

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