ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Pckts]

(10-17-2022, 11:20 PM)Matias Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 

The problem is precisely where this study was carried out. Harbin… any other commercial enterprise with tigers in China has no practical conservation aspect. On the day that China has an authentic enterprise along the lines of private initiative in South Africa with Lions, through its Game Reserves, such as: Madikwe, Welgevonden, Phinda… or even more naturally composed as Bubye Valley Conservancy (Zimbabwe); we could begin, with some caution, to mirror these tigers on other free-living ones. With minority exceptions, we would not see specimens heavier than 240/250 kg (the dynamics of predation must make them strong, fast and agile).

This study is good propaganda, parachuted in, to give some new outlet to these multiple ventures which, in the end, all enter the broad market for their parts, helping to perpetuate the demand for tiger products. From this perspective, I could not be touched by the methodology or the results.

The morphology of captive felines cannot be compared to wild specimens. Captive specimens must be viewed in a restricted, way inherent to their life circumstances, and compared only with captive specimens.

Yes, there are specimens of wild tigers that were bigger and heavier than the great average. This point should also be viewed with a good deal of caution, where directing that these specimens are more adapted or that they had greater evolutionary success is a point to cannot direct to this understanding, since only those who tread the earth and develop field studies, following these tigers for years (radiocollared) may suggest these circumstances. Hormonal and glandular problems associated with obesity, sedentary lifestyle, consanguinity and inadequate diet also make up this picture of the extremes of your weight. In those “live animal” feeding shows we have tigers of spectacular sizes and shapes, but calling them “healthy” is a bit much. We can't prove it, but metabolic-accelerating synthetic drugs and other hormone synthesizers is a common practice. “Large specimens are the showcase for Harbin Siberian Tiger Park – a by-product of entertainment ingenuity".

I don't disagree with your point of view... there is no way to trust the authors and the interests that are involved. Invite renowned scientists in the field and let them analyze and disseminate the hematological and biochemical parameters of tigers they freely choose to select in Harbin. Not that this will produce a broad understanding, it will compose a biological picture of what China has been producing in captivity.

I agree with most you have written.
Separating Wild from Semi Wild from Captive should all be noted.
Anything other than truly free ranging will have some red flags and don't offer a true representation of their capacities. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(10-17-2022, 11:20 PM)Matias Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 

The problem is precisely where this study was carried out. Harbin… any other commercial enterprise with tigers in China has no practical conservation aspect. On the day that China has an authentic enterprise along the lines of private initiative in South Africa with Lions, through its Game Reserves, such as: Madikwe, Welgevonden, Phinda… or even more naturally composed as Bubye Valley Conservancy (Zimbabwe); we could begin, with some caution, to mirror these tigers on other free-living ones. With minority exceptions, we would not see specimens heavier than 240/250 kg (the dynamics of predation must make them strong, fast and agile).

This study is good propaganda, parachuted in, to give some new outlet to these multiple ventures which, in the end, all enter the broad market for their parts, helping to perpetuate the demand for tiger products. From this perspective, I could not be touched by the methodology or the results.

The morphology of captive felines cannot be compared to wild specimens. Captive specimens must be viewed in a restricted, way inherent to their life circumstances, and compared only with captive specimens.

Yes, there are specimens of wild tigers that were bigger and heavier than the great average. This point should also be viewed with a good deal of caution, where directing that these specimens are more adapted or that they had greater evolutionary success is a point to cannot direct to this understanding, since only those who tread the earth and develop field studies, following these tigers for years (radiocollared) may suggest these circumstances. Hormonal and glandular problems associated with obesity, sedentary lifestyle, consanguinity and inadequate diet also make up this picture of the extremes of your weight. In those “live animal” feeding shows we have tigers of spectacular sizes and shapes, but calling them “healthy” is a bit much. We can't prove it, but metabolic-accelerating synthetic drugs and other hormone synthesizers is a common practice. “Large specimens are the showcase for Harbin Siberian Tiger Park – a by-product of entertainment ingenuity".

I don't disagree with your point of view... there is no way to trust the authors and the interests that are involved. Invite renowned scientists in the field and let them analyze and disseminate the hematological and biochemical parameters of tigers they freely choose to select in Harbin. Not that this will produce a broad understanding, it will compose a biological picture of what China has been producing in captivity.

The average weight for the male tigers from Harbin breeding center is around 214 kg with the largest specimen over 440 kg.

They are almost identical to the wild Amur tiger and were not gorged for every day, and they usually won't eat for 1 - 2 days per week as their diet plan and were mostly fed with low calorie chicken.

slightly chubby ≠ morbidly obese


Those morbidly obese captive big cats were usually gorged with high calorie beef and were mostly confined in a limited space unlike those Harbin tigers who were routinely strolled in a much larger yard. Reply

[Apex Titan]

Amur tiger Predation on Asiatic black bears (Observations by Sergey Kolchin)

Its well known that Himalayan black bears are common prey of tigers. The Asiatic black bear of the Amur-Ussuri regions (also known as the Himalayan or Ussuri black bear) is the largest subspecies of Asiatic black bear. Male Ussuri black bears are larger and more formidable than sloth bears. While a very large male sloth bear can weigh up to 160-180 kg, a large male Asiatic black bear can significantly exceed 200 kg in weight, and have a body length of 2 meters. - Similar in size and weight to some adult male tigers and brown bears.

In fact, large male Himalayan bears (150-200+kg) are heavier than the average adult female Kamchatka brown bears (174.5 kg, body length 194 cm).

According to Aramilev (click on the video link below), it's normal for Himalayan bears in the Primorye region to weigh 200 kg. Aramilev stated that the Himalayan black bear can even weigh up to 250 kg! The greatest weight of Himalayan black bears is in autumn and winter, when they have fattened up for hibernation. 

Sergey Aramilev also recently stated in this video here: (Use English subtitles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agSu3xan7OA&t=51s

"There are tigers that specialize in Himalayan bears, especially in autumn, when they have already gained weight and fat, it's very comfortable (delicious) food. Tigers directly know where you can find delicious Himalayan bears."

Biologist Linda Kerley (her email to poster 'Jungle Sprout ', 2011) also stated: 

"I've seen tigers prey on black bears of all shapes and sizes, up to the largest and healthiest female brown bears."

Himalayan black bears are part of the Amur tigers basic diet. Adult bears (of all ages & both sexes) are regularly hunted and killed by tigers. But do the largest and most formidable male black bears, weighing 200+kg, also fall prey to tigers? Do very large male black bears fear tigers? 

As tigers regularly hunt (at any time of the year) adult Himalayan black bears, I wanted some context as to the size and weight of the black bears that become victims of tigers. I wanted confirmation by an experienced field biologist first-hand, if tigers even prey on the huge male black bears, which weigh in excess of 200 kg.

There's a significant difference between an average adult male Himalayan bear (130-140 kg - average summer weight) and a large, old male Himalayan bear weighing 170 - 200+kg. Large old male bears are more powerful, have a nastier & aggressive temperament, fully developed muscle on their head and neck area, and are more seasoned and experienced fighters, often exhibiting old battle scars on their face.

I recently contacted Sergey Kolchin (biologist & leading expert on the biology of wild tigers and bears in Russia). Kolchin has a vast amount of field experience, he has found many bears that have been killed by tigers, he also reported that: "Bears are common prey for tigers."

I asked him what was the largest Himalayan black bear he's ever seen that was killed by a tiger. Kolchin told me that even the huge male black bears (weighing 200+kg, and a body length of 2 meters) fall prey to tigers. These large, old male bears hunted and killed by tigers are also similar in size to large tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This was also confirmed last year in 2021, when a male tiger hunted, killed and devoured a large, old male black bear. Kolchin followed the tracks of the male tiger in the snow, and found the remains of a dismembered, large male bear that was killed and mostly eaten by the tiger.

Judging by the size of the paws, claws and forearms, this could likely have been a huge male black bear, similar in size to his killer.

Large paws of the bear:  (Notice the old battle scars on the bears face)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Large claws:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Notice the large, thick and robust forearms of the bear:

*This image is copyright of its original author

His observations and findings also confirm what Baikov stated about large tigers hunting (large) bears of the same weight, and what field biologist Linda Kerley stated about (seeing) tigers preying on black bears of all shapes and sizes.

Sergey Kolchin stated that the Himalayan bear is terribly afraid of the tiger and avoids him. Only large male bears, in some cases, are able to offer decent resistance when attacked by a tiger. But nothing more. Even the large male bears are usually killed when predated on:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Even large male Himalayan bears, fearing a tiger, will flee up a tree when they hear the approach of a large animal:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Large bears are frightened by very fresh marks of tigers or trails with a smell of a tiger - 1-2 hours ago:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Himalayan black bears (even pound for pound) are one of the most powerfully built and robust bear species. For a tiger to kill a large male bear (170-200+kg) of similar size, it takes a lot of skill, power and strength. As the tiger, in some cases, has to fight, grapple and subdue the large bear in order to kill it.

But Amur tigers are very adept at hunting and killing large bears, although it's still a risky business as bears are a dangerous prey, armed with formidable teeth and claws and immense strength, able to inflict some injuries to a tiger, so the tiger needs to execute his attack properly.

Although, even huge male black bears (according to numerous fight accounts, experts & biologists) are not capable of defeating a tiger in a fight. They can only offer decent resistance, but thats it. In a fair fight between a very large male black bear weighing 200+kg and an average male tiger, the bear is simply outclassed physically by the tiger. Hence why even the largest male black bears become victims of the tiger.

From Yuri Dunishenko (senior researcher & field biologist) and Sergey Aramilev (General Director of the Amur Tiger Center):

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://amur-tiger.ru/data/files/files/ti...ressed.pdf

Below are some examples of large male Himalayan black bears. This puts into perspective the size of bears that are hunted and killed by tigers. (I didn't want to post Russian hunter trophy photo's of large male black bears). 

I also posted pictures/videos of large male Himalayan black bears from South-Asia, as it's easier to find videos of Asiatic black bears from South-Asia than Russia.

A large male from Lazovsky Nature Reserve, Primorye region (Russia):

*This image is copyright of its original author

A large, well-fed Himalayan black bear from 'Land of the Leopard National Park' (Russia):

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here is a huge male Himalayan black bear (most definitely 200+kg) captured in Omah, Verinag; Over 10 men struggled to move this very hefty bear:

A large male Himalayan black bear being released (Massive specimen, likely 200+kg):

*This image is copyright of its original author

A large male caught in Kashmir:

A large, hefty looking male black bear that was sadly killed (accidentally) at night by a vehicle in central Kashmir:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A large Himalayan black bear in the Nandhor Valley, Uttarakhand:

*This image is copyright of its original author

A large male Asiatic black bear from Japan. This bear was 1.3 meters at the shoulders (4 ft and 3 inches shoulder height on all fours):

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13856819


A large male Ussuri black bear compared to a male Amur tiger next to the same tree:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Himalayan black bears from South Asia (India & Pakistan) can also reach massive sizes, but the largest Himalayan bears (Ussuri black bears) are found in the Amur-Ussuri region of the Russian taiga. As you can see, the bears that are hunted by tigers are far from small. They are large, very robust and powerful animals.

In my opinion, the size and weight of Asiatic black bears are highly underestimated by most people. As the above pictures/videos clearly show, these bears can often reach impressive sizes and weights, exceeding 200 kg. One large male shot in Japan was claimed to have weighed 237 kg.

Conclusions:

1) It's a fact that huge male black bears (weighing 200+kg, body length of 2 meters) fall prey to tigers (Sergey Kolchin, 2022). Black bears of all shapes and sizes are killed by tigers (L. Kerley, 2011).

2) Due to active predation by tigers, large male black bears highly fear tigers and will usually flee up a tree when they encounter or sense the presence of a tiger. 

3) Large bears, in general, are frightened by very fresh marks or trails of tigers.

4) Tigers prefer to hunt Himalayan black bears in autumn, when bears have gained weight. This makes the bear more juicy and tasty for the tiger to eat, but also provides more meat.

5) Tigers regularly hunt and kill Himalayan black bears all year round (especially in summer & autumn) and individuals of all ages, genders and sizes become victims. (Tkachenko, Kolchin, L.Kerley et al; 2011, 2012, 2017, 2022). Reply

[peter]

(10-12-2022, 02:28 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Giant Amur tiger from the Harbin breeding center.

All sampled specimens weighed between 98 - 442.4 kg with the age of 2 - 9 years old.

They were usually fasted 1 - 2 days per week and were regularly fed with chicken and pork. All specimens were described as 'healthy' so far, and most likely being empty stomach before being weighed and blood sampled.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full...2/vms3.395


I guess this particular 442.4 kg specimen is equivalent to a 7 feet tall and 350 pounds individual for the modern Homo sapiens.

Those giant specimens among the modern big cats sound too staggering to be real, but they do exist. @peter @tigerluver @GuateGojira

GRIZZLY

Sorry about the (very) late reply. I was busy.

a - About the captive 442,4 kg Amur tiger

The tiger was discussed in post 2,578 (paragraph VI-2f) and in post 2,579 (paragraphs VII-5 and VII-7). Although mentioned in the table (VII-7, tiger 82), the tiger was left out of the equasion (referring to the table with averages). The reason is the tiger was no less than 122,4 kg (272 pounds) heavier than the second heaviest male. The table, in fact, shows two males were tied for second. At 320 kg (707 pounds) each, they would still need an additional adult wild Amur tigress of average size in order to get even close to the 442,4 kg giant (...). 

I immediately admit the decision to leave the 442,4 kg giant out of the table with averages was arbitrary. That, however, doesn't mean I doubt the weight of the tiger. I know he was weighed, but at his size one wants to know a bit more. With 'a bit more', I mean body measurements (total length, head-, neck-, chest- and waist circumference, upper- and fore-arm, heel width), skull measurements and a few photographs showing the tiger close to another large male.   
 
b - Personal experience

A few decades ago, I had the opportunity to measure and weigh 3 adult male Amur tigers and 3 adult male lions. The Amur tigers were 279, 287 and 298,5 cm in total length measured in a straight line. The longest of these 3 was 185,5 kg. The others were a bit heavier. One of them, 'Amur', was 211 kg when he was moved to a safari park a few years later. 

The tigers were part of a French curcus. The act had 8 Amur tigers (4 males and 4 females). During a show, one of the males killed his trainer. The tiger was shot. After the accident, nobody was willing to work with them anymore. Their cage wagon was set apart and the tigers were all but completely neglected for a period of about 7 weeks. I measured them just after they had arrived in the Netherlands, when they were severely weakened by the ordeal.  

In spite of that, the males were still impressive. Compared to the male lions I measured that same day, they were longer, taller and more muscular (referring to the limbs and shoulders in particular). The lions, by the way, were as impressive. Although usually (quite) a bit shorter than captive male Amur tigers, captive male lions often have larger chests and bigger heads. These large chests, however, do not seem to result in more weight. The correlation between chest circumference and weight seems to be different in captive male lions and tigers. One could say captive male lions have relatively large chests for their weight and be close.      

I can't tell you a lot about the weights of the 3 male Amur tigers and the 3 male lions. The reason is the first male tiger woke up when we put him on the scale out in the open (...). We were able to bring him back to the cage, but decided agains weighing the others (too risky). We did, however, move all of them to and from the cages on the same stretcher and thought they they more or less compared. The heaviest could have been the male that was weighed at Schiphol Airport a few years later. 

The point I want to make is an adult male lion or tiger ranging between, say, 380-470 pounds (172,36-213,19 kg) is an impressive animal by any standard. Heavier animals are not uncommon, but a non-obese captive big cat exceeding 600 pounds (272,16 kg) is exceptional. Both lions and tigers are able to get to that weight, but male tigers of large subspecies, and Amur tigers in particular, do it more often.  

Our member 'Betty' has good contacts in China as well as an extended database. About a year ago, she told me at least 3 males in Chinese facilities exceed 400 kg. Not one of them is obese. These males are kept for breeding purposes. I take Betty very serious, but would appreciate a bit more than just a report.  

c - Photographs of large captive Amur tigers

This paragraph has 10 photographs of large Amur tigers. The aim is to show you how a large tiger compares to a human. With 'large', I mean tigers (referring to tigers c4, c6, c7, c8 and c10) ranging between 260-300 kg (596-663 pounds). This is needed in order to get to a mental image of a tiger considerably heavier. Remember reports about captive Amur tigers reaching or even exceeding 400 kg (883 pounds) are not a result of hearsay. These tigers are very real. 

I have no information about the other 5 tigers (c1, c2, c3, c5 and c9), but my guess is they more or less compare with the others. Remember a tiger approaching 300 kg is able to reach 8-9 feet while standing on his hind legs. One has to get close to really appreciate the size of a large tiger.    

c1 - This photograph was posted in the days of AVA. The legs in particular are striking:

*This image is copyright of its original author

c2 - This photograph was also posted in the days of AVA. Watch the width of the skull and the rostrum:

*This image is copyright of its original author

c3 - Another large male Amur tiger with a large and robust head:

*This image is copyright of its original author

c4 - This is tiger 'Amur' from the Duisburg Zoo (Germany). According to V. Mazak (1983, pp. 180, 186-187), this tiger was born in the Rotterdam Zoo ('Blijdorp') in 1965. His parents were captured in Russia (Ussuri region). At age 5,5, he was 110 cm at the shoulders (standing). The other measurements (head length 50 cm, total length 320 cm 'between pegs' and upper canines 9 cm) show it was a very large animal. In his prime, 'Amur' was estimated at 280-300 kg (618-663 pounds):

*This image is copyright of its original author

c5 - A typical male Amur tiger, but longer, taller and more robust:

*This image is copyright of its original author

c6 - This, I think, is 'Gamin'. If not, it's 'Junior'. They were mentioned in the table in post 2,579 (paragraph VII.7). Both stood 110-112 cm at the shoulder and both were 276-277 kg (609-611 pounds) in their prime. About as tall and heavy as the Duisburg Zoo tiger (see c4):

*This image is copyright of its original author

c7 - This is 'Jelzin' just before he was transported to Braunschweig (Germany). The one who sedated and transported the tiger (standing in front of the cage, I think) said he was 270 kg (596 pounds) at age 2,5 (...). As a result of his age, tiger 'Jelzin' wasn't as robust as some of the other males in this paragraph, but he was long and in tigers length often equals weight. In wild Indian tigers, about a century ago, every inch in (total) length resulted in 7 additional pounds. 

It's quite likely 'Jelzin' would have been (significantly) heavier at age 4 or 5. In captivity (referring to recent information collected in Chinese facilities), male Amur tigers, weightwise, peak at that age. Although their neck-, and, most probably, their skull circumference continues to increase, they start to lose weight after reaching 6-7 years of age. Judging from the photographs, videos and documentaries I saw, wild Amur tigers, although most probably a bit shorter than their captive relatives, seem more robust, especially in the upper body. Their head seems to be relatively larger as well. 

The main reason why captive male Amur tigers lose weight when they reach adulthood is they do not have the opportunity to hunt and develop their muscles, bones and mind. There's no need for a large body and a truly adult soul, that is. But the blueprint is still there and it shows in adolescents and young adults in particular.  

Today, mainly as a result of smallish reserves and severe competition (referring to India), wild males with a territory only seldom reach 12 years of age, but a century ago, when one could still walk for weeks in pristine forests without seeing a soul (in southern India in particular), tigers had much more space and more opportunities to learn, to adapt and to grow old. I read many stories about tigers well exceeding 15 years of age. When shot, most of them were in excellent condition. The Pipal Pani Tiger ('Man-eaters of Kumaon', Jim Corbett) is an example, but there are more stories about old tigers shot in India (and Russia) a century ago.    

Anyhow. Watch and admire the blueprint of a true apex predator at age 2,5:        

*This image is copyright of its original author

c8 - In his best years, tiger 'Igor' (Odense Zoo, Denmark) was tall and bulky. As can be seen below, he also had a large and robust head. After he reached 10 years of age, he started struggling with his health. When treated for tooth problems, 'Igor' was weighed. It was the only time he was weighed. Although he had lost quite a bit of weight by then, he still tipped the scale at 230 kg. His weight in his prime is anybody's guess, but the photographs I have suggest he could have compared to the tigers mentioned above:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

  

c9 - This photograph could have been posted by our member 'Amnon'. Some years ago, he visited quite a few zoos and facilities in the Czech republic and Slovakia and often posted about his trips. In his opinion, Amur tigers in Slovak facilities were larger. This could have been one of them:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

   

c10 - This is 'Altai' of the Köln Zoo (Germany). He could (not sure) have been related to 'Gamin' (see c6), whereas tigress 'Hanya', a few years older, was from a French zoo. The tigress was large, but 'Altai', in spite of his age, was exceptional. In 2012, 'Altai' killed his keeper. He was shot by the director of the zoo and later featured in a paper. 

He's one of the few captive male Amur tigers that was measured. His total length was 336.5 cm (HB 240, tail 96,5) and the photographs of his skull suggest the greatest total length could have been over 430 mm. Even allowing for the distortion as a result of the angle, chances are his skull would still top the lists.  

Unfortunately, he wasn't weighed. Those who saw him thought he could have ranged between 250-280 kg. When he was shot, 'Altai' was a young adult. He still had a bit of growing ahead of him, that is. This is confirmed by the skull measurements. At about 430 mm in greatest total length, the zygomatic width was 280 mm. At that length, it should have been closer to 300 mm. The zygomatic width of the skull of an old male that lived in a Japanse zoo, for comparison, was 284 mm, but his skull was about 50 mm shorter (zygomatic width is related to age). 

As can be seen on the photograph below, 'Altai', at 3-4 years of age only, was a large and robust animal. The skull in particular is striking:     

*This image is copyright of its original author

4 - Conclusions

A year ago, in this thread (post 2,579), I posted a number of tables with information about the size of captive Amur tigers. It took me a long time to get to a result, because a lot of information posted on the internet is unreliable. The information I selected suggests captive male Amur tigers (referring to Amur tigers kept in zoos and facilities in Japan, China, Russia, Europe, the USA and South Africa) average 303,1 cm (just over 9.11) in total length measured 'between pegs' (range 279,0-336,5/n=14) and 224,2 kg (range 142,9-320/n=61), whereas females average 255,6 cm (range 223,0-276,5/n=7) and 138,1 kg (range 102,5-178,0/n=27). 

The average weight of males is based on a large sample (n=61). Remember almost a third of the males used for sample was well below 200 kg (442 pounds). The sample also included quite a few males past their prime. If the table would have been based on males in their prime only, the average weight would have been well over 224,2 kg (495 pounds).    

Most of those in the know (trainers, keepers, zoo directors and biologists) think an average captive male Amur tiger is 240-260 kg (540-575 pounds) in his best years. Males exceeding 600 pounds (272,16 kg) are uncommon, but every now and then a male exceeds that mark. Remember I'm referring to tigers in good shape, not obese tigers. Also remember only few adult male Amur tigers are ever weighed in their prime. 

Based on the tables in post 2,579, one could conclude the 'normal' maxima of captive male Amur tigers are 305-320 cm in total length measured 'between pegs', 104-106 cm at the shoulder and 270-290 kg. Exceptional males can reach 336,5 cm, 110-112 cm at the shoulder and 300-320 kg. At that size, the head length can be 50 cm (referring to tigers 10 and 49 in the table in post 2,579).  

The average greatest total skull length of captive male Amur tigers (referring to the tables in post 2,579) is 357,5 mm (range 332,5-380,0/n=16), but my guess is V. Mazak, who wrote male Amur tigers average 367,10 mm in greatest total length ('Der Tiger', 1983, pp. 191), could be right. The only big cat exceeding this average is the Kruger lion. In 'Brain size of the lion (Panthera leo) and the tiger (P. tigris): implications for intrageneric phylogeny, intraspecific differences and the effects of captivity', 2009, Table 4.1), Yamaguchi, one of the four authors, says males average 380 mm (n=15), whereas Indian male tigers average 351 mm (n=37).     

The problem with most averages is they're based on smallish samples used time and again. I've visited many natural history museums and also saw a lot of skulls in private collections. In spite of that, it took me a long time to find even 10 skulls of captive adult male Amur tigers. Skulls of wild Amur tigers are even more elusive. You can find a few measurements of skulls of wild Amur tigers in V. Mazak's 'Notes on the Siberian long-haired tiger (Panthera tigris altaica, Temminck, 1844)', that was published in 1967 (pp. 554-559), in 'On the sexual dimorphism in the skull of the tiger (Panthera tigris)', J.H. Mazak, 2004 and in a few other books and publications, but that's it.

What is needed, is a book that has detailed information (including photographs) about skulls of wild and captive big cats. I'm not referring to a book that offers information at the level of averages only, but to a book in which every skull is discussed. It's the only way to find, and explain, the differences between species and subspecies. It's also the most effective way to describe the differences between male and female skulls and the effects of age and captivity.          

The question, regarding skulls of captive big cats, is if there is a difference between head length and greatest skull length. This is needed in order to get to guesstimates. The answer is we don't know. One thing we know is there is a lot of individual variation. A few examples. 

The greatest total skull length (GTL) of 'Amur' (Prague zoo), who died at age 11,5, is 371 mm. The head length of this tiger was 45 cm. The head length of his son 'Benjamin' was 42 cm. The greatest total skull length of this male, however, is 377 mm. The head length of the Duisburg zoo tiger was 50 cm. Can we use the info about 'Amur' and his son 'Benjamin' to get to a few deductions? I don't know. It's likely the skull of the Duisburg zoo tiger is over 400 mm in greatest total length, but this is an assumption only. 

We also don't know if there are differences in this respect (head length and greatest total skull length) between wild and captive big cats. We do know the longest skull V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983, pp. 191-193) measured was 383 mm (CBL 342 mm/ZW 268 mm). The skull was from an old male from Heilongjiang (northeastern China). Another skull, measured by Baikov and also from that region, allegedly was 16 inches in total length (406,40 mm). V. Mazak (1983, pp 193-194) thought the photograph was real. He added skulls of this size have to be expected when tigers reach an exceptional size.   

And what about the skulls of the tigers shot over a century ago in Cooch Behar, the Duars and Assam by the Maharajah of Cooch Behar and his guests? Some of them ranged between 15 and 16 inches (381,0-406,4 mm). The answer, again, is we don't know. I do know there's usually a difference between a measurement taken by a hunter (or naturalist) and a measurement taken by a biologist or someone who measured a lot of big cat skulls. In a large skull, the difference can be as much as 6-7 mm (referring to my experience). My guess (referring to skulls of tigers shot in what used to be British India) is we'll never know. I do know hunters like memories. Most exceptional skull are in private collections and most owners avoid publicity. 

Are skulls of lions, as many think, really longer than skulls of large wild tigers in Russia, northeastern China, Nepal, northern India and, in particular, northeastern India? Based on what I read, heard and saw, I'd say the answer is affirmative. Time and again, I noticed it's easier to find a 14-inch lion skull than a 14-inch tiger skull. At the level of individual skulls, however, things are more complicated. Skulls of large male tigers, lengthwise, (almost) compare to skulls of large male lions and my guess, for now, is wild tigers of large subspecies could have (relatively) wider (referring to the arches and the rostrum), and perhaps, heavier skulls. In order to get to a solid conclusion, we need detailed information about skulls of wild tigers in particular. The problem is only few skulls were measured a century ago. In this respect, unfortunately, the situation didn't change a lot in the last century.       
           
Returning to captive Amur tigers. There is, like I said, reliable information about Amur tigers well exceeding 320 kg (up to 442,4 kg) in Chinese facilities. The problem is the details needed to get to a conclusion (body and skull measurements as well as photographs) are not available. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

@peter 

It would truly be staggering to see the body measurements of that 442.4 kg giant.

Unfortunately, it was never published, and very few captive giants were truly weighed and measured.

That's why we can only see some of those weight figures being afloat around, but never got a chance to have a deeper study on its body measurements. Reply

[peter]

AMUR TIGERS IN NORTHEASTERN CHINA - RECENT INFORMATION - II

5 - Feng Limin: Introduction 

In the first post of this series (post 2,587), scans of different, recent, articles about the situation in northeastern China were discussed. Feng Limin featured in all of them. Although most of those interested in tigers heard about him, only few realize Feng Limin is one of the most active tiger biologists today. He published over 20 papers and currently is a member of the Feline Specialist Group (Cat SG) of the Species Survival Commission (SSC) of the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN). To say he knows about tigers would be an understatement, that is. 

The aim of this post is to tell you a bit more about him. Paragraph 5a has an overview of his past. Paragraph 5b has an interview published 12-01-2022. After reading his cv and the interview, you, as I did, no doubt will conclude Feng Limin is heavily involved in field work. Has been for over 16 years now. He's the field work leader of the Tiger and Leopard Research Team of the Beijing Normal University. Mainly as a result of the efforts of this team, the largest real-time wildlife monitoring system in the new Northeast Tiger and Leopard National Park (NTLNP) was established. 

In order to be able to find the best places for the cameras, knowledge was needed. Limin and his team, like the old school Russian biologists, achieved their goal the hard way: they walked. It must have taken them a long time to accomplish their mission, as the new National Park, at 14,000 spuare km, is the largest tiger (and leopard) reserve in the world. That's still apart from the severe winters and the terrain (hill country). Although they most probably invested thousands of hours, Feng Limin, known as the 'Savage Professor' because of his decision to go out there himself, never saw a wild Amur tiger.    

Limin's National Scientific Observation and Research Station for Siberian Tiger and Leopard Monitoring, and the research Station of the State Forestry and Grass Administration jointly built an observatory station in the depths of the forest with the Forestry Bureau, the Forest Public Security and the Frontier Defence. The cabin, loaded with instruments, even has a 5G signal.

The equipment installed resulted in more information, more knowledge and, as a result, more protection and, therefore, better breeding conditions. Before the NTLNP was established, about a third of the Amur tiger cubs made it to adulthood. Today, more than half reach that mark. As a result, the population rapidly increased. This year (2022), the number of adult wild Amur tigers will exceed 700. In the near future, depending on the political conditions, there could be 1,000 wild adult Amur tigers in Russia and (northeastern) China combined. A singular achievement without doubt. 
       

5a - Curriculum vitae 

*This image is copyright of its original author

5b - Article published 12-01-2022 (Baidu)

Informative and interesting article. What I remember most is this sentence:

" ... Over the past 16 years, he has been the field work leader of the tiger and leopard research team of Beijing Normal University. With the team's efforts, the Northeast Tiger and Leopard National Park has established the world's largest real-time wildlife monitoring system ... " (from the article below, first page).

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

5c - Tigers in the STLNP

The new Siberian Tiger and Leopard National Park has a lot of cameras. The direct result is many tigers and leopards have been captured on camera. Some of the photographs and videos show impressive tigers. How do they compare to the tigers captured and weighed in the Sichote-Alin Zapovednik and it's surroundings in the period 1992-2004?

The answer is we don't know. We do know a male recently weighed in northeastern China was 270 kg (597 pounds). According to Feng Limin, who confirmed the 270 kg tiger, another one was over 250 kg (552 pounds). The young male captured in the same region not so long ago (recently discussed in this thread) was 225 kg (497 pounds). 

There could be more heavyweights, both in Russia and in northeastern China. In the last month alone, photographs of two big tigresses and two large males were uploaded (referring to YouTube) by a certain 'Rickstar'. According to him, one of these males, tiger T-38, is considered as one of the largest in Russia. 

The equipent installed in the NTLNP, as stated before, will result in more information, more knowledge and more protection. One result is more cubs get to adulthood. Another is the new reserve will have more prey animals. This means there's no need for tigers to turn to captive animals. Last but not least is large individuals are enabled to pass on their genes and reach their potential.   

That potential is anybody's guess, but a century ago, N. Baikov (in 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjetunion', V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij, Band III, German translation, 1980, pp. 118) thought the 'normal' maximum weights for males and females were 320 kg (707 pounds) and 180 kg (397 pounds) respectively. Today, wild males seem to range between 140-270 kg (310-597 pounds). Old males, like, for example, 'Tikhon' (140 kg), often are thin as a rail, whereas a large male in his prime can reach 270 kg in good conditions (referring to the male recently weighed in northeastern China). One has to remember that most healthy wild Amur tigers, as a result of a very sound policy, will never be captured, measured and weighed.

And what about reports of wild Amur tigers well exceeding the 'normal' maxima? In an evaluation of historic records published (in Russian) in 2005, those involved concluded that most (of the 44) reports were unreliable. The 254 kg (560 pounds) male Baikov shot near the Korean border in 1911 is still regarded as the heaviest wild male Amur tiger. The tiger was measured and weighed and Baikov published a photograph of the tiger. Records of tigers well exceeding that mark, also shot by Baikov, however, were not accepted and a large male shot in 1943 in Manchuria wasn't even mentioned. Remarkable, as the tiger was discussed in a book published by V. Jankowski. V. Mazak corresponded with V. Jankowski. He published a photograph of the tiger in his book 'Der Tiger' (1983, pp. 186). 

One of our longtime members (GuateGojira) monitors the weight situation. Based on records he considers reliable, he concluded wild male Amur tigers average about 200 kg (442 pounds). Wild male Indian tigers could be a tad heavier, but, seen from a distance, one could conclude they roughly compare and be very close. Male lions living in the southwestern part of Africa (South Africa, Namibia and, perhaps, Botswana) are quite close (referring to averages), but India, Russia and northeastern China seem to produce more large individuals. With 'large', I mean tigers exceeding 480 pounds (217,73 kg) and 9.8 (294,64 cm) measured 'between pegs'. Maybe Guate, when he has time, will be able to post a few updated tables in this thread. Reply

[Apex Titan]

In addition to my previous post on Amur tiger predation on Himalayan bears, here's some more interesting notes on Amur tiger predation on Ussuri (Himalayan) black bears, the heaviest weights and aggression of Ussuri black bears, and the intelligence of the tiger from Mikhail Krechmar's (Russian bear specialist and hunting biologist) book on bears: "The Furry god".

The weight range of large Ussuri black bears:

"The largest of the white-breasted bears examined by Professor G.F. Bromley, a well-known explorer of Primorye, weighed 192 kilograms, the naturalist V.P. Sysoev got a male weighing 220 kilograms. The famous zoologist S.P. Kucherenko did not come across animals that weighed more than 180 kilograms. Zoologist Vladimir Aramilev shot a bear weighing 260 kilograms, which is an absolute record today."

The Siberian Tiger Project biologists weighed a large male Ussuri black bear of 205 kg (451 lbs), almost the same weight as the adult male tiger 'Dima' (455 lbs):

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://vladnews.ru/ev/vl/1360/53407/medvedi_batareykah


Aggression of the Ussuri black bear:

"However, despite the general syndrome of vegetarianism, the white-breasted bear is reputed to be the most conflicting animal in the south of the Russian Far East. In case of an unexpected meeting with a person, it is the “white-breasted” who is inclined, without hesitation, to go on the attack. It was this beast that marked with its claws many hunters in Primorye and the south of the Khabarovsk Territory." ...

"The rut of the Himalayan bears takes place in June-July. It flows, according to zoologists, in a rather calm form, but the bad bear character still makes itself felt, and therefore fights between males are a common thing. But they are not carried out with such bitterness as among the brown brothers."



Tiger predation on Ussuri black bears:

"As the main enemies of the white-breasted bear, in addition to humans, one can name a tiger and a brown bear. The tiger is the most constant and worst enemy of this beast. Some even claim that he prefers bear meat to other meat. But a significant share in this organic hostility of his is, of course, an innate hatred for any large predators that seem to him possible competitors and simply enemies. Tigers usually catch bears in small forests, in clearings and in other places devoid of large trees, where the bear used to seek its salvation."


A rare case of a tiger couple (mating pair) habitually hunting for bears, also showing the high intelligence of a tiger:

"During a tiger census in the winter of 2005 in the southern Sikhote-Alin, scientist Viktor Gaponov discovered two tigers that were purposefully looking for white-breasted bears lying in dens. Tigers literally “gnawed” these bears out of their dens, killed them and ate them." ...

"At first, this story seemed completely unbelievable to me - a white-breasted bear usually lies down in the hollow of a living tree, and is separated from the outside world by a ring of 20-25 centimeters of raw frozen wood. This tree hardly yields to an ax, and not only to the teeth and claws of the beast. In fact, it turned out that the tigers took advantage of the very specific conditions that developed as a result of a fire on one of the spurs of the Sikhote-Alin. The cedar forest on this spur after it fell withered on the vine, and from many trees, which then rotted, only the base remained in the form of a thin hollow "pipe" with a wall thickness of about five to ten centimeters. The tigers coped with this defense easily."...

"Scientists have found one Himalayan bear sitting on a tree with a torn off foot, and under the tree - traces of two large Amur tigers. The next day, the researchers returned to this place, but found only traces of a feast of striped predators. Local hunters claim that this is not the first bear hunt of the “striped couple”.

"Researchers of the Far East, such as N. Baikov and S. Kucherenko, consider the Amur tiger one of the main enemies of the white-breasted bear. But such a case of “brigade specialization” (hunting bears in pairs) of striped predators when hunting a bear was noted for the first time."

"In Russia, it is believed that the black bear is terribly afraid of even the tracks of a tiger. One trainer argued that if tigers “worked” in the circus arena, then the Himalayan bears then categorically refuse to do anything on it for quite a long time, even if the carpet is treated with sawdust with mothballs. However, in India, the Himalayan bear is not very shy in front of striped cats and happens to put them to flight. At least, such a famous hunter and fauna connoisseur as Jim Corbett writes about this with confidence. Although, I admit that the Bengal tiger does not inspire such respect (from a bearish point of view) as its Ussuri counterpart."

https://www.livelib.ru/book/147686/readp...rechmar/~9


In addition to the remarks about the weights of large Ussuri black bears, here is the tracks of a large male Himalayan bear, who had a palm callus width of 12 cm, similar in size to the 206 kg adult male tiger Dima (12.5 cm - palm callus width):

"For example, traces of a large bear (width of palm callus imprint - large pad of the front paw - 12 cm) approximately a day old were found on March 31, 2005 in the valley of the river."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya...Khekhtsira

A Himalayan black bear with a large palm callus width of 12 cm, likely weighs 180 - 205 kg.


Conclusions:

1) Large male Ussuri black bears weigh up to 150 - 260 kg. The normal maximum weight is 200 kg, but much heavier males well in excess of 200 kg have been found. Sergey Aramilev (2021) stated that large male Himalayan bears can weigh up to 250 kg, Kolchin (2022) also stated that large, old males exceed 200 kg in weight, and have a body length of 2 meters. The STP biologists weighed a huge male Himalayan black bear of 205 kg (451 lbs), nearly the same weight as the adult male tiger 'Dima'. 

2) Ussuri black bears weigh an average of 130-140 kg in summer, but bear species have huge individual variation in weights and sizes. A full-grown adult male of one bear species may weigh only 145 kg, whereas another male of the same subspecies can weigh well over 200 kg. The weight/size variation is greatly pronounced. Some large male Himalayan bears get really huge.

3) Although tigers are solitary hunters and almost always hunt bears single-handedly, there are rare cases of a "Tiger couple" hunting bears. Jim Corbett also mentioned a well-known case of a pair of mating tigers that attacked and killed a large bull tusker elephant after a prolonged battle.

4) Although Bengal tigers also hunt and kill bears, the Amur tiger seems to strike fear in bears to a much greater extent. This is due to the fact that Amur tigers hunt bears far more often than Bengal tigers do. In fact, of all the tiger subspecies, the Amur tiger is the true 'bear specialist'. This is interesting because the bears (Ussuri brown & black bears) living in the Amur tigers habitats, are larger than the bears living in the habitat of the Bengal tiger.

5) The fact that tigers hunt and kill (primarily in summer & autumn) the largest male Ussuri black bears, and the largest adult female brown bears, strongly indicates that bears weighing 150 - 250 kg, are hunted by tigers. This was also confirmed by the large male tiger 'Dima', who hunted and killed huge female brown bears almost his own size.  Reply

[Apex Titan]

Credits to Nyers. 

New account of an Amur tiger that killed a huge male brown bear 

Brutal fight to the death: Amur tiger killed and ate a brown bear in a nature reserve near Khabarovsk

Remains of the huge male brown bear killed and eaten by the male tiger 'Odyr': (November 29, 2022)

*This image is copyright of its original author

The Amur tiger is an absolute predator. This means that he has no natural enemies, and he feels like a full-fledged ruler of the Far Eastern taiga. Only a brown bear can compete with him for this title. These disputes are most often bloody and cruel.


BLOODY MASSACRE

Traces of one of these fights were found in the southern region of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve. An impressive size bear (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 centimeters) did not have time to hibernate. And this became a fatal mistake - the Amur tiger overtook the clubfoot.

- Judging by the traces, the fight here unfolded serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won. He didn't get hurt. Such a conclusion can be drawn due to the absence of bloody stains at the place of his lying down - that is, rest, which we found next to the half-eaten bear carcass. The tiger will probably return here later to continue eating for a few more days, - said Yuri Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve.

WHO IS THE KILLER?

Experts suggest that the tiger Odyr killed the bear. The male most often prefers to walk in this area of the reserve. The tiger sometimes appears in the northern part of Bolshekhekhtsirsky. The female Zlata lives here, to which Odyr visits.

This summer, bears have repeatedly become the prey of tigers. The inspectors found the remains of the Himalayan bears and the excrement of the tiger, in which the claws of the clubfoot were found. Most often, the victims of the striped were one-year-old individuals. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three.

https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27477/4684605/?fromrss=582

https://www.mk.ru/incident/2022/11/28/am...vskom.html

https://info24.ru/news/tigr-rasterzal-me...dnike.html

https://hab.aif.ru/incidents/tigr_ubil_m...vskom_krae

http://khabarovsk-news.net/society/2022/...77001.html

Here's the video and pictures of this incident:

https://vk.com/zapovedamur?w=wall-104014369_1614

The debate has finally ended. We now have a 100% (undeniable) confirmed account and report by specialists, of a tiger hunting and killing a large adult male brown bear in a fight. Huge male brown bears are clearly not immune to tiger predation, and this account confirms that some adult male tigers do hunt, fight and kill large male brown bears.

This case adds even more credence to the account (from biologist Alexander Batalov) of the tiger 'Ochkarik' killing the giant male brown bear 'Chlamida'.

The amazing thing is, the tiger was able to slaughter a very large male brown bear in a prolonged fight, without sustaining any injuries whatsoever. Incredible! Reply

[Apex Titan]

Here's some follow-up notes and information about the recent incident that happened a few days ago of a tiger killing a large male brown bear in a fight, which also refutes and debunks the wild speculations, lies, empty claims and guesswork made by the bear posters about this account.

Because the big male brown bear was killed in winter, the bear posters, automatically assume (without any shred of evidence at all) that this was a "weak shatun-bear" dying from starvation, which is absolute nonsense and pure guesswork. It is a known fact, that when there's plenty of food in the forest for bears, some well-fed, healthy bears will still roam the forest until mid-December and go into hibernation later than other bears. Some bears even wake up very early during their winter sleep and come out of their dens and walk the forests.

I have seen plenty of footage (videos & documentaries) and pictures of large, well-fed healthy brown bears roaming the forests during winter time because there was enough food in the forest. Not all bears hibernate on time. Many bears roaming the forests during winter are not shatun-bears, some are perfectly healthy, well-fed bears in excellent condition.

In fact, the large male brown bear was NOT A SHATUN (connecting-rod), but was a bear just about to go into hibernation, but didn't have time, because he was attacked and killed by a tiger before he could:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://rg.ru/2022/11/30/reg-dfo/v-habar...vedia.html


There are at least 15+ different news reports about this incident of the tiger killing and eating the large male brown bear, even some of Russia's biggest and most popular media outlets (news reports & articles) have reported this case. Which also verifies this account. And not a single report even implies, let alone mentions that the killed brown bear was a "weakened shatun-bear". None.

There were three people (forest guards) at the scene of this killing, and all authorities were able to conclusively determine that a moderate-sized male tiger (heel width 10 cm) killed a larger male brown bear, of impressive size (palm callus width of 18 cm) in a prolonged fight. The tracks in the snow, blatantly showed that a fierce battle took place between the tiger and brown bear, in spite of the obvious signs and undeniable evidence at the scene of this kill, some bear posters still ignorantly refuse to accept this account. Unbelievable and ignorance, fanaticism and denial of the highest order.

Yuri Kya, a chief forest engineer, and one of the men who found the killed bear, spends his whole life working in the taiga, he spends more time in the forest than any biologist or scientific researcher has, with the exception of Alexander Batalov, who lives in a cabin in the Durminskoye forest. Yuri Kya and the other forest guards would easily be able to determine that a fight took place between the tiger and bear by the tracks on the ground. In fact, even most laymen would be able to clearly tell what happened. The ground (snow) would be trampled up with tracks clearly showing a vicious struggle between a tiger and bear took place. Which is what they clearly saw and specifically reported!

Here's the video of this incident, and all 3 men were able to easily establish that a tiger fought, killed and ate a large male brown bear; In fact, they were even able to tell where the fight began. The fight began next to the forest near the index sign:

https://www.hab.kp.ru/video/embed/907889/

Also, the reason why the remains of young Himalayan bears were repeatedly found in tigers excrements, is not because tigers mostly target young bears when hunting them, its because this bear mating season, large male bears drove the young bear cubs away from their mothers, and the tigers took advantage of this and killed all the young bears. All large predators will kill and consume the cubs of other predators. This had nothing to do with tigers deliberately hunting bears for food in these cases.

When male tigers hunt Himalayan bears, they habitually attack and kill adult Himalayan bears of all ages and both sexes, and even the largest male bears (200+kg) are hunted and killed, as confirmed by my previous posts in this thread. As big game specialists, tigers always prefer large prey, and bears, due to their large mass, are important seasonal prey for tigers, as recent scientific studies and research shows. Hunting and killing young bears and cubs for food consumption will not sustain a tigers energetic requirements and nutritional needs, thats why male tigers regularly prey on adult bears (I posted plenty of information on this).

Just last month in October, 27 - a report was published in which it states that tigers are the reason why the number of bears in the Khekhtsir reserve has decreased. The report also mentions that this year, there was enough food and a good harvest of acorns for bears in the forest, so not all brown bears went into hibernation on time. Some healthy, well-fed bears still roam the forests until mid-December.

*This image is copyright of its original author

"There is enough food now. Our bears collect cedar cones. Also this year a good harvest of acorns. At the same time, they now have almost no competitors in the face of wild boars."...

"The numbers of bears has decreased on the territory of the reserve."

"In particular, before August we met bears with babies, but now they are gone. Apparently, during bear weddings, large males drove them away from their mothers, and tigers took advantage of this."

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Bears in the forest can be found until mid-December. At the same time, we are not talking about connecting-rods." (Not shatuns).

*This image is copyright of its original author

"But in general, some clubfoot will walk the numbers (forest) until December 15, especially if there is food."

*This image is copyright of its original author

"But not all clubfoot become connecting-rods (shatuns). If they have accumulated enough fat."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2022/10/27/147618/

Here's more pictures of the killed and half-eaten carcass of the large male brown bear:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Authorities and forest guards at the scene of the murder:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's another 13 different news reports about this case, and not a single report, nor did the authorities mention or even imply that the killed brown bear was a "shatun-bear" (connecting-rod):

https://amurmedia.ru/news/1405911/

https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27477/4684605/?fromrss=582

https://vk.com/wall-104014369_1614

"It is noted that the dead bear was of impressive size. Presumably, a male Amur tiger named Odyr dealt with him. However, he himself, apparently, was not injured."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.mk.ru/incident/2022/11/28/am...vskom.html

https://info24.ru/news/tigr-rasterzal-me...dnike.html

https://hab.aif.ru/incidents/tigr_ubil_m...vskom_krae

http://khabarovsk-news.net/society/2022/...77001.html

https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2022/11/28/148892/

"A large bear (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 cm), not having time to hibernate, became the prey of the tiger."

"The fight turned out to be long, but the tiger was not injured - the experts did not find bloody stains on the place where the predator lay (rest), which was found next to the half-eaten carcass of the bear."

https://khabarovsktv.ru/news/amurskiy-ti...vskom-krae

https://vk.com/zapovedamur?w=wall-104014369_1614

https://www.interfax-russia.ru/far-east/...vskom-krae

https://iz.ru/1432853/2022-11-29/amurski...vskom-krae

https://transsibinfo.com/news/2022-11-29...ae-2602227

Conclusions:

1) This is a 100% undeniable, irrefutable and confirmed account of a large male brown bear (of impressive size) that was killed by a smaller male tiger in a one-on-one fight. The large bear was unable to even injure the tiger, suggesting the tiger dominated the fight.

2) This account, along with Batalov's account, shows that moderate-sized male tigers (160-180 kg) are more than a match for large male brown bears (270 - 400+kg), and are able to kill much larger male brown bears without sustaining any injuries whatsoever.

3) This account confirms that even large adult male brown bears are not safe from tigers, and do get attacked, killed and eaten.

4) The fact that not a single report, nor the forest officials and authorities mentioned or even hinted, that the killed bear was a 'shatun', and the fact that the bear had the energy and strength to put up a prolonged fight against the tiger, strongly indicates that it was a healthy, well-fed large male brown bear that decided not to hibernate early (which some bears do) and roamed the forest.

5) This year, there was a good harvest of food for bears in the Khekhtsir reserve, so the bears were well-fed and had plenty of food to fatten up for hibernation. Due to the abundance of food, some brown bears did not hibernate on time and continued to roam the forest.

6) Its likely the male tiger 'Odyr' spotted this large male bear and decided to eliminate him from his territory. Tigers are highly intolerant of rivals, threats and competitors in their territory.

7) This account confirms all the fight statistics, testimonies and reports from experienced biologists, naturalists and hunters, of tigers winning most fights against brown bears.

8) Its also likely the male tiger is an experienced bear-killer and had a successful hunt for a large adult male brown bear. Batalov in his 2017 publication (Summer life of tigers) stated that some adult male tigers, depending on their self-confidence, will attack almost any bear.

9) This bear could have weighed anywhere from 290 - 400+kg. The largest Kamchatka brown bear weighed by Seryodkin had a palm callus width of 18.5 cm, and weighed 410 kg! Whereas this big male brown bear killed by the tiger has almost the same palm callus width - 18 cm. Meaning this killed bear was very large.

10) Its known (established by scientific research) that Amur tigers especially prefer to hunt and eat bears in autumn, so its possible that the male tiger 'Odyr' saw a large, fattened male brown bear and decided to kill and eat him, but since large brown bears have thick-set necks coated with layers of muscle and fat, making them difficult to kill instantly (in some cases), the initial attack (by the tiger) turned into a head-on fight, in which the tiger killed the bear. Accounts of tigers attacking and killing large brown bears in prolonged fights have been reported more than once in the recent past.

All in all, this verified account has finally ended the debate once and for all, and confirms that even very large male brown bears do get attacked, killed and eaten by tigers, and proves that even a moderate-sized male tiger will fight a large male brown bear head-on and kill him without sustaining any injuries.

This account also shows why the Amur tiger is the undisputed apex predator and dominant carnivore of the Amur-Ussuri taiga forests, at the pinnacle of the food-chain, and is widely regarded by the natives, biologists, zoologists, naturalists, hunters etc, as the "Master, Lord, King & Owner of the taiga." Reply

[Apex Titan]

Credits to poster 'goodhope683' for contacting biologist Sergey Kolchin.

This is for the bear-posters who claim that this incident is not confirmed by biologists. By the way, a biologist doesn't need to "confirm" this account to be true anyway, they're not the authorities in this case, the forest guards and rangers are. They're the one's who found the killed bear and examined the place! They found clear traces of a fight between the tiger and brown bear.

When a highly respected biologist and major expert on tigers and bears in Russia (Batalov) did report a case of a tiger killing a huge male brown bear, the bear-posters ignorantly rejected Batalov's account because it didn't suit their agenda, so why are the bear-posters now referring to "biologists" about this case, when you've already rejected an account from one of Russia's greatest biologists and largest bear specialists??

Sergey Kolchin (a field biologist who studies tigers and bears in the Khabarovsk region) commented on the recent incident of the tiger killing the large male brown bear. Kolchin confirmed that the incident is true, in fact, Kolchin wasn't even surprised that this happened, because he said brown bears are common prey for adult male tigers. 

The link to the report (account) was also sent to Sergey Kolchin. Also, not a single biologist or scientific researcher has disputed this account. Why? because its common knowledge that tigers prey on adult brown bears, an established scientific fact thats reported in scientific literature, research papers and stated by biologists, hunters and researchers.

Q: Hello, sir. You are an expert on bears, and in Russia, I want to ask whether it is true that brown bears were killed and eaten by tigers. Thank you, sir.

Sergey Kolchin: Hello. Yes, it's true. Why not? This is a common prey for adult male tiger. Bear was not so bigger.

Q: Oh! Thank you for your reply! thank you! This bear has a front palm pad width of 18 cm. Is he an adult?

Sergey Kolchin: I'm not sure that the size of the paw is determined correctly. 18 cm is a big male. but the bear didn't look like that.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

There you go!  Even a biologist has confirmed this account. 

Of course the killed bear won't "look like" a large male to Kolchin, because the tiger had already eaten a large portion of the bears carcass, and its hard to judge the size of a partially-eaten bear from a video filmed on a phone or pictures.

But all 3 experienced forest rangers were able to determine that the tiger killed a large male brown bear of impressive size, with a palm callus width of 18 cm. This is undeniable.

In the Khabarovsk region, bears (both black & brown bears) are common prey for adult male tigers. Kolchin also finds remains of huge male black bears (weighing 170-200+kg) that were killed and eaten by tigers. In the Khabarovsk territory, tigers hunt and kill large bears, and in some cases, even huge bears.

This is not surprising because tigers always prefer the largest prey animals. Large animals can feed a tiger for at least a week, and also maximize their energetic return.

According to biologist Kucherenko's observations, when a tiger kills a large, 200-300 kg bear, it will feed the tiger for about 8-10 days:

"Our numerous observations have also shown that an adult tiger eats a pig of average fatness (about 30 kilograms) or half of a two-year-old pig in one go. A red deer or a wild boar with a live weight of 150-200 kilograms is usually eaten by a tiger in a week. A crushed large bear (weighing 200-300 kg) has an animal that lives for 8-10 days."

https://litresp.ru/chitat/ru/%D0%9A/kuch...bya-doma/6 Reply

[Apex Titan]

The male tiger 'Odyr', who is the suspected killer of the large male brown bear that was recently killed and eaten by a tiger in the Khekhtsir reserve:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Apex Titan]

Some follow-up information on the male tiger Odyr and his mate (tigress Zlata), after the incident that happened last month of the tiger Odyr who killed and ate a large male brown bear. The incident is also mentioned by Yuri Kya in this report. Odyr is the dominant male tiger of the Khekhtsir reserve and is a bold, powerful and confident tiger. 

The incident of the tiger killing the large male brown bear was even reported on the TV News in Russia:

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/5924337490626234978

This report also shows how experienced these specialists are, and that they know the forest and animals that live within it, very well and intimately. Such experienced experts and specialists like Yuri Kya, would easily be able to determine if a tiger killed a bear by looking at the traces on the ground, especially in the snow. The fact that anyone would have the nerve or audacity to doubt or dispute their expertise, conclusions, credibility and qualifications, is utterly ridiculous and laughable. In the forest, you don't get more experienced people than the ones pictured below.

The kill-site (large male brown bear killed by a tiger) was examined by highly experienced experts, and the traces of a serious fight in the snow, clearly told the story of what happened to the brown bear.

Tiger Odyr became the owner of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve near Khabarovsk and surprised environmentalists

Yuri Kya, and the other forest rangers, guards, ecologists and inspectors, who took part in the census of animals in the Khekhtsir reserve:

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Conducting a census of animals in the reserve, its employees were surprised at the composure and confidence of the Odyr tiger."

The press secretary of the Federal State Budgetary Institution "Amur Reserve" Olga Apollonova informed that the first stage of the winter route registration (abbreviated ZMU) of animals and the installation of camera traps took place in the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve, as soon as a stable snow cover formed in the taiga. The employees of the protected area, together with the specialists of the "Reserved Amur Region", were distributed along six routes with a total length of 105 kilometers and, some on skis, some on snowstorms, set off at the same time in the early morning to carefully and painstakingly study every trace left by a forest dweller on the snow cover of reserved paths.

As a result, as the trackers reported, Dmitry Grankin and Yuri Kya counted three tigers along the route of the Kabanya-Polovinka streams. Traces of the male Odyr (width of the imprint of the callus of the front paw 11 cm) were found from the fish hatchery towards the Polovinka stream. As it turned out later, he crossed the Polovinka and was noted in the area of the Bykov stream. The accounting route - he did not cross the Sosninsky stream (apparently, he stayed for a day). The female Zlata (width of the callus of the front paw is 10 cm) and her one cub (width of the callus of the front paw is 6-7 cm) were found in the buffer zone of the reserve near the Kedrovy farm. The second cub, apparently, moved a little to the side from the path.

“According to my analysis of the movement of tigers, it turns out the following: on November 27, Odyr was noted by us on the carcass of a bear that he had killed earlier; on November 30, he was noticed by a detachment of border troops at the junction of the Bogdanovskaya-Chirkinskaya outposts. Now, apparently, Odyr is going back to the southern exposition of the reserve, judging by the straightness of his course, ”summarizes Yury Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky reserve.

Ecologists also noticed that the male's left hind leg bleeds a little. However, judging by the footprints in the snow, the wound is not critical. The Pathfinders were surprised by Odyr's composure and confidence when meeting people. 

“The fact is that during the ZMU, my colleague and I decided to cut the arc of the “borannik” directly along the forestry road of the Polovinka River, while the tiger was walking quietly at that time, almost sneaking in parallel-oncoming along the “borannik”, hiding behind the windfall aspen and missing us, crossed the accounting route behind, - Yuri Kya describes the situation . - Coming out on the Buranovsky trail, we saw the trail of a tiger. I decided to tread it a little along the "burannik". Walking back, I saw that the tiger crossed our trail just two minutes ago, and after crossing our trail, he raked a couple of times and launched a jet. At the first meeting with me on July 31, 2015, he did not behave like that .

And here is what Yuri Kya wrote in his diary in 2015, when he first met Odyr: “Ahead, 80 meters away, I saw a tiger moving lightly jogging across the ski slope. From an unexpected meeting, I was dumbfounded, then convulsively began to take out the lens of the navigator to photograph the magnificent predator. Apparently, with peripheral vision, the tiger noticed these awkward movements, turned his head in my direction and somehow tightened up, so that his shoulder blades stood up like a hump, without changing the gait, crossed the remaining open space and disappeared into the reserved silence ... ".

As Yuri Kya notes, then the Odyr tiger was young and inexperienced, and now the beast is in the full dawn of its strength, and therefore is calm.

https://www.province.ru/habarovsk/news/t...logov.html

Yuri Kya has known the tiger Odyr since he was young. Now, the tiger Odyr is a mature male tiger at 10 years of age, dominant, very powerful, bold and confident.

Although being a moderate-sized male tiger, he was able to successfully attack, fight and kill a large adult male brown bear. It's likely he has hunted and killed other adult brown bears, and due to his experience, he had the confidence and skill to attack and kill a mature male brown bear of large size.

Biologist Tkachenko also studied tigers in the Khekhtsir reserve, who actively hunted bears, and brown bears were also taken. He also noted that male tigers would more often prey on adults, larger bears, while the tigress more often preyed on younger bears. ('Tigers on Khekhtsir: conditions and prospects for existence, 2018).

Sergey Kolchin, a field biologist and major authority on tigers and bears in Russia (post #2,650) said that brown bears are common prey for adult male tigers. Due to this fact, Kolchin wasn't even surprised that an adult male brown bear was killed by a tiger, he also never disputed this account, as it is a confirmed case determined by experienced specialists.

Male tiger Odyr who reigns supreme in the Khekhtsir reserve: (He appears to be young in this picture)

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[peter]

ABOUT A MALE BROWN BEAR FOUND DEAD IN A NATURE RESERVE IN THE KHABAROVSKY KRAI IN NOVEMBER 2022 - I

1 - Introduction

On 29-11-2022, our member 'Nyers' (many thanks) posted a report about a male brown bear found dead in a reserve in the Khabarovsky Krai in the thread 'Tiger Predation'. I'm referring to the report in post 2,306. The title of the post is: 'Amur tiger killed a brown bear in a nature reserve in the Khabarovsky Territory'. 

In the report posted in that thread, you'll find a link to the source. The link will lead you to the site of the organisation responsible for 8 reserves and national parks in the northeastern part of the Russian Far East. If you read the original report, you'll find a link at the bottom. The link will lead you to the news archive. It has 206 pages. Every page has a number of reports. If you read all of them, you'll find a lot of information about the situation in the period 2015-2023. 

I read all of them and those in which tigers and bears feature in particular. I'm not saying the reports will lead you to the incident mentioned above (referring to the report posted by 'Nyers'), but they will tell you a bit more about the tigers and bears living in that part of Russia and the conditions they face(d). 

My aim was, and still is, to do a series of posts about these reports and the incident mentioned above, but it's isn't easy. The reason is I get a lot of PM's of members asking me to discuss the incident. I have to respond to all of them, which is consuming a lot of time and energy. My request is to stop sending me PM's. I want to use my time to answer a few questions.   

2 - About PM's and the posts I read 

I've read the posts of Apex in this thread and a number of posts in other forums about the incident that happened in November of this year. I asked Apex to stick to the reports of the site mentioned above.   

I don't want to invest my time in discussing posts I read in other forums, but I can tell you not one of them is based on the reports published on the (Russian) site mentioned. In spite of that, those who wrote these posts had no problems moving to dismissals, conclusions, insults, deliberate misinformation and all the rest of it. 

As to those who sent me private messages. They too didn't invest time in research. They did, however, decide to invest their energy in what can only be described as a deliberate attempt to manipulate the co-owner of a forum. I don't like it one bit.  

3 - Research  

As I said above, my aim is to read all reports that have information about the reserves and national parks for which the Federal State Budgetary Institution 'Amur Reserve' is responsible. I finished reading today, but didn't have time to get to conclusions yet. Might take another week. I can, however, tell you a bit more about the things I read. 

In general, the reports will enable you to get to a bit of knowledge about the situation in the reserves and national parks for which the organisation is responsible. I also learned as bit more about the way the staff is trained and about the history, distribution and habits of the animals living in the reserves and national parks.  

3a - Poaching 

In contrast to what many seem to think, poaching still is a problem in reserves and national parks in this region of the Russian Federation. Same for traffic. In the 2020-2021 winter, the Anyuisky National Park alone lost 4 tigers. Three were killed by cars. Another tiger, a large male, was found in a river close to the village of Arsenyevo. The cause of his death is unclear. 

Other animals are poached as well. This is considered a more serious problem, because it often directly affects tigers.  

3b - Bolshekhtsirsky and Anyuisky National Park    

Nearly all reports about tigers are from Bolshekhtsirsky and Anyui. Bolshekhtsirsky, not too far from Chabarowsk, is quite small. In some periods, it has resident tigers, but in others it doesn't. It largely seems to depend on the situation in the wild boar department. Today, tiger 'Odyr' and tigress 'Zlata' make their home in Bolshekthsirsky. Their relationship resulted in two litters. The male tiger seems to be about average in size or a tad smaller (heel width 11 cm), where the tigress (heel width 10 cm) is relatively large. 

The Anyuisky National Park, larger than Bolshekthsirsky, always had breeding tigresses in the period 2015-2023. The one responsible for the cameras in the National Park, junior researcher Alexei Gotvansky, has acquired quite a bit of knowledge about the tigers living in Anyuisky over the years. The National Park has a relatively large tiger population. The reason the high density doesn't result in problems is the National Park is well-stocked with prey animals. When a problem erupts in the wild boar department, tigers do not enter conflicts with their neighbours. They start walking. Adult males in particular roam in these periods.   

3c - Tiger size 

Anyuisky could have the largest wild Amur tigers today. You may remember the heel width of an average adult wild male ranges between 10,5-12,0 cm. A male with a heel width of 13,0 cm is considered large and a male width of 13,5 cm is considered very large. They've seen them in northeastern China more than once. One of the tigers leaving such a print was 270 kg (...). 

In Anyuisky, Gotvansky found prints width a heel width of 15 cm in February 2020 and even one with a width of 16 cm in July 2020. In another part of the national park, there's another male with a heel width of about 16 cm (...). One of these two is the tiger known as 'The Beast'. In May 2021, another 'very large' male, hardly, if at all, smaller than the 'Beast', entered the National Park.

It's all but impossible to tell you anything about the weight of these, to use the words of Gotvansky, 'monster' tigers, but we do know a captive male with a heel width of 14,1 cm in a UK facility was 276-277 kg in his prime. I, by the way, don't think 'monster' is an exaggeration, as Gotvansky, responsible for the cameras, has been walking in Anyuisky for years. If he says the immense male brown bear and the tiger known as the 'Beast' approach 3 meters when standing on their hind legs, he most probably is quite close. Here's the great photograph one more time:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 
3d - Tigers, bears and food problems 

Although Gotvansky repeatedly found remains of Himalayan black bears eaten by tigers, Anyuisky tigers, in spite of their size, do not seem to be prolific bear hunters. They most probably thrive on wild boars. In the summer of 2021, Gotvansky saw bears everywhere and all of them were in good condition. The reason was plenty of food. 

For tigers, the situation was different. The reason was the National Park had only few wild pigs left (a result of a disease) and most of them were large males. Not an easy prey for any tiger. The Anyuisky male tigers, including the 4 monsters mentioned above, didn't respond by starting epic battles with monster male brown bears and monster male wild boars, but entered nordic long distance walking events. Many of them were away for long periods of time.  

In the autumn of that year (2021), bears couldn't find any salmon. On top of that, there was a crop failure. The pictures showed many skinny bears lacking the weight needed to hibernate. Gotvansky was afraid many would pay. The following winter was hard. Deep snow impeded the movements of all.   

How do tigers and bears respond to food pressure? In Anyuisky, it seems tigresses left or even killed their cubs. They also seem to mate more often in these periods. This means many cubs starve to death in, or before, their first winter. I'm not sure about brown bears, but my guess is many cubs starve to death in these years. Adult and old brown bears and tigers know how to overcome food problems, but inexperienced and younger animals do not. They're the ones that pay.  

One thing is for sure. Anyuisky male tigers didn't grow into monsters by hunting monster brown bears and monster wild boars in times of need. Like most of us, they responded with budget cuts and trips to greener pastures.    

3e - Bolshekhtsirsky tigers

Do tigers in Bolshekhtsirsky behave in a similar way as the monster tigers in Anyuisky when faced wih pressure? The answer is they don't. At least, females with cubs don't. That is to say, 'Zlata' didn't. In the 2022 winter, Gotvansky and inspector Lukin found prints of large wild boars. All of them were left by adults. The tigress, without her cubs, followed them. She killed one and waited for her cubs. The reports I read suggest her previous litter also made it to independance.

4 - Questions

In the introduction, I said I didn't have the time to discuss the incident that happened in the last week of November 2022. I'm referring to the male brown bear found in the buffer zone by inspectors of the Federal State Budgetary Institution 'Amur Reserve'. The reason I didn't get to conclusions is a lack of time and a lack of information. The information problem was solved to a degree, but the first wasn't. 

I'm sure quite many of you don't want to wait another week. This is the reason I decided to conclude this post of the series with a few questions. These questions need to be asked in order to find out a bit more about the incident mentioned above. 

4a - The bear 

Watch the video and again. Do you see prints of one bear or two bears? 

Brown bears, and males in particular, can be cannibalistic in times of need. If they succeed in killing a large animal, an animal too large to eat in a single sitting, they often store them in a pile of debris. Do you see a pile in the video? When they kill a human, bears often rest very close to the remains of their victims. They also actively defend their prey. This is why it often is not too difficult to find the bear responsible. Do you see a resting place? Did the inspectors find one? 

4b - The tiger

Watch the prints left by the tiger in the video again. Measure the width of the pad and remember it was left in soft snow. In soft snow, the print of the pad will be a bit wider. Also remember the pad width of male tiger 'Odyr' is 11 cm, whereas the pad with of tigress 'Zlata' is 10 cm. What is the conclusion?  

Tigers, like bears, often rest close to the remains of a large animal they killed. Do you see a resting place of a tiger close to the bear?

Have another look at the remains of the bear. It was half-eaten, the inspectors said. Where do tigers prefer to start? What is the amount of meat a tiger can eat in a single sitting? You ever read a report about a gorged wild Amur tiger? Does the picture fit the pattern?

4c - Snow

The video suggests the depth of the snow cover in the buffer zone is less than 10 cm. This means it isn't likely both animals were impeded. What do the prints you see suggest, if you already know the bear wasn't killed by another bear? 

Why do you think the inspectors concluded the bear was killed after a prolonged fight? You know anything about the way rangers, researchers and inspectors are trained? Is there a competition for them once a year? Do the prints suggest the bear was ambushed? What do you know about tigers and bears using the same trail? Do tigers follow bears or is it the other way round?    

4d - The fight

Most of those interested in bears think an average adult male Ussuri brown bear in good health is more than a match for an adult wild male Amur tiger. The bones of adult male lions, tigers and brown bears I saw in natural history museums confirmed adult male brown bears are more robust. Although shorter (referring to head and body length measured in a straight line), male brown bears are significantly heavier than either a male lion or a male tiger. This means it's very likely a male brown bear has a strength advantage in a fight. True? And why did Krechmar and Pikunov said they roughly compare in tooth and claw? 

Male brown bears, those interested in bears say, have more endurance than big cats. Mayby, but what I read, heard and saw suggest bears fight in a similar way as tigers. They too engage in short bouts in which maximum strength is used and they too take a lot of breaks to regain their breath. Usually, there's little to choose between two bears or tigers of similar size and strength. In spite of that, one of them is sometimes killed. Why is that? 

Tigers often hunt animals smaller than themselves, but experienced males are able to take down animals significantly heavier than themselves. Every tiger has to develop the skills needed to do that, but the blueprint is there. A result of many thousands of years of living on the edge. Tigers unable to use these skills in the most efficient way usually end up wounded or killed sooner or later. Comes with the trade: it very often is do or die for a wild tiger. In the long term, this development will result in something we're unable to understand. Tigers also developed the weapons needed to bring down and quickly kill a larger animal. Adult wild tigers know how to do what when where. If they're unable to take an animal down, they know how to impede or injure it. Last but not least, tigers are able to leave a fight not going their way. Not true for a bear. If a bear is losing a fight with a tiger, it can't leave. 

As to the weapons of tigers. Corbett said tigers kill with their teeth. I measured skulls of captive male Amur tigers and wild male Canadian brown bears. In length and width, there was little to choose between both, but Canadian brown bears have shorter skulls than Ussuri brown bears. Male Ussuri brown bears are just over 15 inches, whereas male Amur tigers are about an inch shorter (averages). The difference between Canadian and Ussuri brown bears is Ussuri brown bears are narrower across the arches. Ussuri brown bears, however, have larger teeth, but tigers top the tables in this department. By a margin. 

My guess is most of you saw this photograph before. It shows the skull of a male liger (not a tiger) and a female brown bear. The liger allegedly was 600 pounds, whereas the brown bear sow was 800. A bit too rounded for my taste, but that's what I found on the site (Taxidermy Forum). I know there's a difference between the skull of a large liger and an average wild male Amur tiger, but Amur tigers have the longest and biggest upper canines of all big cats (averages). This to show you the upper canines of a male Amur tiger are large enough to inflict serious injuries: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

        

4e - Biologists and trainers

There's not a lot of information about interactions between wild Ussuri brown bears and wild Amur tigers. Also remember not every incident is discussed in a peer-reviewed document. That, of course, doesn't mean Ussuri brown bears and Amur tigers have a clean sheet. I don't doubt that biologists working in Wild Russia know a lot more than all of us combined. What is their take? 

Krechmar said there was little to choose between an average male brown bear and an average male Amur tiger, but he didn't doubt the ability of a big male bear in a fight. Vaillant, who interviewed many, leaned towards the male tiger, but confirmed a large bear would best a large tiger. Linda Kerley thought just about anything was possible. 

In the last decade, quite a few of her peers said they favoured one over the other. Those interested in bears think the messenger is to blame, but it is a fact that biologists favouring the male tiger confirmed what Apex said in articles, videos and interviews. I do not doubt they have good reasons to get to that conclusion. The last thing a biologist wants, is to misinform the general public. 
  
Literature suggests the bold, the old and the incapacitated are the usual victims, but the trainers I interviewed told me character often is decisive and the director of the facility where big cats were trained confirmed their conclusion. 

Is the pendulum swinging towards the tiger, or is there something we missed? My guess is it's all of what you read above.  

4f - Forums

Those who join forums often are guided by preference of some kind. At times, it's mild, but more often it's anything but that. I'm not only referring to youngsters, but also to those who should know better, including administrators who distinguish between 'fanboys' and 'enthousiast'. If an administrator, on top of that, decides for deliberate misinformation and dismissals of qualified and experienced biologists, he isn't walking the edge, but deliberately crossing it and contributing to a climate that can only result in crap and animosity. My guess is the organisation hosting his forum will agree.  

The poison administered every bloody day has an effect: I've been contacted by different members of the forum run by this administrator. They repeat the same mantras he teached them and do not hesitate to add a bit of persuation to get to the desired effect. I'm getting sick and tired of it, Brobear. I told you once. This is the second and last time for all to see. Now you can't say you didn't know. 

For those following his example. There's a difference between good information and something else. The information Apex posts in this thread, as said before, is reliable. I want him to focus on good info and so far I'm happy. If you think the info he posts is a result of attitude, address it and inform him. What I see, is the info he posts seems to bother quite a few. The inability to prove it's incorrect or one-sided resulted in frustration and, not unimportant, unfounded accusations. My advice is to let it go and opt for a different strategy and outlook. 

In the end, it's about reality. Reality isn't one-sided and the info posted also isn't resulting in a lack of respect for bears. Far from it. What you sense isn't a result of the 'attitude' of the one all of you target, but of the way you tend to deal with information. Apex for sure is interested in tigers, but that doesn't mean he targets bears. The moment he does, he's out and he knows. What you sense is a man responding to a poisonous climate, meaning you created your enemy yourself. I know dismissing, sidelining and ridiculing the oneselected is considered a delicacy by many, but don't complain about the results. Also remember it, apart from animosity and hostility, never ever produced a decent result. 

As to bears over here. All former bear mods (Brobear, Wolverine and Shadow) left without a word. We could do with a good mod interested in bears. One with an open mind. What we don't want are members involved in serious preference and all the rest of it. The next one sending me a PM about tigers, bears and problems will be banned.                                

4g - To conclude  

If members of forums want answers to the questions they have, they need to ask the right questions. I discussed some, but there are many more.   

In the end, like always, it's about the details. In this case, it's about the individuals involved. Remember this year wasn't easy for both tigers and bears. I'm not saying they were desperate, but it could be some individuals were close. 

Maybe the male bear had a problem, maybe the tiger knew and maybe he decided to use the opportunity. Maybe the tigress considered the bear a threat to the cubs. Maybe there was something else. There are many maybe's.  

I do not doubt the information about palm width and size 'Nyers' added in his post, but one has to remember individual variation in bears is pronounced. It could be the bear, weightwise, was well below par. Maybe he, like many bears in Anyuisky, hadn't been able to find enough food to hibernate. Maybe this was the reason he didn't hibernate.    
   
The second post of the series will be in about a week. Reply

[Apex Titan]

Quote:Although Gotvansky repeatedly found remains of Himalayan black bears eaten by tigers, Anyuisky tigers, in spite of their size, do not seem to be prolific bear hunters. They most probably thrive on wild boars. In the summer of 2021, Gotvansky saw bears everywhere and all of them were in good condition. The reason was plenty of food. 

For tigers, the situation was different. The reason was the National Park had only few wild pigs left (a result of a disease) and most of them were large males. Not an easy prey for any tiger. The Anyuisky male tigers, including the 4 monsters mentioned above, didn't respond by starting epic battles with monster male brown bears and monster male wild boars, but entered nordic long distance walking events. Many of them were away for long periods of time.  

One thing is for sure. Anyuisky male tigers didn't grow into monsters by hunting monster brown bears and monster wild boars in times of need. Like most of us, they responded with budget cuts and trips to greener pastures.    

Do tigers in Bolshekhtsirsky behave in a similar way as the monster tigers in Anyuisky when faced wih pressure? The answer is they don't. At least, females with cubs don't. That is to say, 'Zlata' didn't. In the 2022 winter, Gotvansky and inspector Lukin found prints of large wild boars. All of them were left by adults. The tigress, without her cubs, followed them. She killed one and waited for her cubs. The reports I read suggest her previous litter also made it to independance.

The tiger 'Beast' hunted both large wild boars and bears:

"His successful hunt was observed twice: first, a giant cat crushed a large wild boar and savored the carcass for a couple of days, then a Himalayan bear became its prey, which, by the way, is not uncommon in the diet of a striped predator."

https://todaykhv.ru/news/society/29772/?...um=desktop

"Researchers say - the beast is in a well-fed form. So, judging by the decoding of the tracks, they hide the red deer, roe deer. Moreover, the difficult period - winter - the tigers survived successfully, and soon their food chain will expand again: bears, raccoon dogs, badgers will wake up."

https://todaykhv.ru/news/society/33420/?...id=3249480

Large wild boars are hunted by tigers in all areas and regions, and large male boars are frequently taken. I'm gonna make a post about tiger predation on large male Ussuri wild boars. I have no doubt that a large wild boar is a formidable, immensely powerful and tough animal to take on, but tigers, including youngsters and females know how to handle them well.

I also saw a documentary on Amur tigers, in which it was stated that the tigress 'Katya' easily takes down 500 lb wild boar, nearly twice her own weight.

@peter  Do you remember the name of the documentary you saw, in which Russian hunters found the head of an enormous male wild boar lying in a fresh pool of blood, that was killed by a young adult tigress?

Ussuri wild boar in Anyuisky National Park:

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Apex Titan]

To add to the series, the recent case of the tiger killing the large male brown bear was announced by the governor of the Khabarovsk territory in his telegram channel.

The 2nd report, like all others, notes that the bear was large, was killed before it was about to hibernate, it was a serious fight, and judging by the traces of the tiger examined by the experts, the tiger was not injured.

Now, if you read all the numerous reports about this case, you'll see that they're all 100% consistent and clear. Specialists found clear traces all over the forest clearing & snow of a prolonged, serious fight between a tiger and big male brown bear, the bear was killed in a year, in which there was a good harvest of acorns/plenty of food for bears in Khekhtsir, not a single report mentions or even implies that the killed male brown bear was a "desperate", "weakened" or "connecting-rod" bear, the bear was noted to be of impressive size, and judging by the traces of the tiger (paw prints & resting place), the tiger was not injured from the fight. 

All in all, this is more than enough to conclude that a moderate-sized tiger killed a healthy, well-fed, larger adult male brown bear in a fair one-on-one fight, without sustaining any injuries.


The bloody battle in the Khabarovsk taiga excited the governor

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://deita.ru/article/527875

https://news.rambler.ru/ecology/49790448...bernatora/

All the latest news of the Khabarovsk Krai:

https://news.rambler.ru/Khabarovskiy-Kray/


The Far East Reserve spoke about the "serious duel" between the Amur tiger and the brown bear

"Judging by the footprints in the snow, the tiger was unharmed."

In the Khabarovsk Territory, the Amur tiger won a "serious" fight with a brown bear. This was reported in "Vkontakte" by the press service of the Federal State Budgetary Institution "Reserved Amur Region".

Animals fought in the southern region of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve. Traces of their fight were found during the raid by inspectors. “Before hibernating, the clumsy became the prey of the striped owner of the taiga,” the press service said. They noted that the bear was quite large - the width of the callus of its front paw is 18 centimeters.

Most likely, the Odyr tiger participated in the fight - it can often be found in this area of the reserve, said Yury Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities of the institution. According to him, this male "visits the tigress Zlata, whose favorite habitat is the northern part of our reserve." The tiger itself, judging by the absence of traces of blood at the place of its lying, was not injured.

https://snob.ru/news/dalnevostochnyj-zap...-medvedem/ Reply