ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Shadow]

(01-07-2020, 11:33 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 11:24 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 09:55 PM)Pckts Wrote: The largest Tiger that is claimed to be 290kg one was from Kanha, if i remember correctly but @Shadow wasn't able to get or didnt post confirmation on that.

"Shadow Wrote:
I got reply again concerning this possible "very big tiger", but this expert said that he simply don´t know about this case (possibly 345 kg tiger). At least not yet. He mentioned, that with full belly a tiger can have up to 40 kg extra weight. I mention this because there seem to be some different kind of opinions about it. I assume that this number is for very big male tigers, while estimations about 30 kg or so are for smaller/average individuals.

Some things stayed unclear, because this person has been busy, but he told that he checks his data sheets and then tells about that biggest tiger he had darted and weighed. I will put that information then here, that tiger is from Kanha tiger reserve."

This is quote from first reply:

"The 345 kg seems far fetched. Please let me know the source of your information. I have radio-collared several tigers and the heaviest was around 280-290 kg. But this too is due to a full belly (fully fed). "

And this from second:

"The heaviest tiger I have weighed was in Kanha tiger reserve "Punch Kata", I shall check my data sheets and give you the weight but as I said close to 280-290kg. I have not darted tigers in the Terai (Himalayan foot hills - Kumaon, Rajaji, Corbett, Dudhwa etc.) so cannot comment if they are larger. But I do not see that they are much different in size then central Indian or Western Indian tigers (Ranthambore). "


That is all what I can put here at this point.

I'm not sure how he can't see the difference between the 2 though. 
All of us here have viewed Tigers all our lives and I'm not sure there is a single person who doesn't look at them and think they aren't larger than others, at least in Photographs.
That's not including peoples first hand accounts who've seen both, saying the same.

He used words "much different", so that isn´t the same as saying, that no difference at all. And when writing briefly it´s not the same as when taking time to think all details. As a biologist he most likely is quite careful when commenting something what he haven´t had time to study enough (from his point of view). When we here put strong statements, it´s quite harmless, but when professional, they have to be more conservative. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-07-2020, 10:34 PM)Greatearth Wrote: GuateGojira

You only talk through them in email, but I know big cat people now. My advisor worked as forest department and rangers in the tiger national park before he became professor. So I am sure his word is more accurate than what you said about  "2 - Share of data:." Africa is completely different story than Asia. I read somewhere that you are personal friend with John Goodrich, Dale Miquelle. However, I think I read somewhere (in Indochinese tiger wildfact) that he never answered you back after one email. You do know Goodrich is very busy person and he has daughters, right? Why would he (or other big cat biologists) spend several hours to write emails to someone he doesn't know and not even working save big cats?

From my experience of big cats, I would not trust unless if it is published sources just like other tiger subspecies you mentioned. Those data can be trusted since it seemed peer reviewed. I recently read Pcket wrote about the guide name Paulo about Adriano. This is the same issue.

I have spoken with Dr. Bilal Habib for weights from Tadoba *Jai, Gabbar, Cota Matka and his brother, Choti Tara* he was on site for all.

For Adriano I have spoken with both Rafeal Hoogesteijn and Fernando Tortato, both lead field researchers for Panthera.
For South Pantanal I have spoken with Oncafari and in Particular, Edu Fragoso, field Researcher.

For newer Kanha weights for Bheem and a few others, everything was verified by Field Workers from the Kanha FD, their communications are available on FB if you search, they're here as well but again, you'd have to search.

For M2 from Kanha, measurements and weights were confirmed by M.P. Tiger Foundation to me, the people responsible for his capture and translocation.

Also, what do you mean "many douches from Panthera?"
Considering everyone I've spoken too have been nothing but helpful and polite, I suggest you change your tune. 
These people have done far more for wildlife than anyone else you know, they've risked their life to research these areas and for little to no wealth. 
They do it simply because it's their passion, you would know this if you actually spent time in these areas and saw first hand exactly what these researchers go through. 
Not all are created equal and many have slight variations in protocol but that doesn't mean that all of them are full of it, you're just being petty. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-07-2020, 11:49 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 11:33 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 11:24 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 09:55 PM)Pckts Wrote: The largest Tiger that is claimed to be 290kg one was from Kanha, if i remember correctly but @Shadow wasn't able to get or didnt post confirmation on that.

"Shadow Wrote:
I got reply again concerning this possible "very big tiger", but this expert said that he simply don´t know about this case (possibly 345 kg tiger). At least not yet. He mentioned, that with full belly a tiger can have up to 40 kg extra weight. I mention this because there seem to be some different kind of opinions about it. I assume that this number is for very big male tigers, while estimations about 30 kg or so are for smaller/average individuals.

Some things stayed unclear, because this person has been busy, but he told that he checks his data sheets and then tells about that biggest tiger he had darted and weighed. I will put that information then here, that tiger is from Kanha tiger reserve."

This is quote from first reply:

"The 345 kg seems far fetched. Please let me know the source of your information. I have radio-collared several tigers and the heaviest was around 280-290 kg. But this too is due to a full belly (fully fed). "

And this from second:

"The heaviest tiger I have weighed was in Kanha tiger reserve "Punch Kata", I shall check my data sheets and give you the weight but as I said close to 280-290kg. I have not darted tigers in the Terai (Himalayan foot hills - Kumaon, Rajaji, Corbett, Dudhwa etc.) so cannot comment if they are larger. But I do not see that they are much different in size then central Indian or Western Indian tigers (Ranthambore). "


That is all what I can put here at this point.

I'm not sure how he can't see the difference between the 2 though. 
All of us here have viewed Tigers all our lives and I'm not sure there is a single person who doesn't look at them and think they aren't larger than others, at least in Photographs.
That's not including peoples first hand accounts who've seen both, saying the same.

He used words "much different", so that isn´t the same as saying, that no difference at all. And when writing briefly it´s not the same as when taking time to think all details. As a biologist he most likely is quite careful when commenting something what he haven´t had time to study enough (from his point of view). When we here put strong statements, it´s quite harmless, but when professional, they have to be more conservative.

Absolutely, most don't use such definitive words until they see it first hand.
A healthy skepticism should be every researchers best friend.
But in terms of look alone, I'd say it's fairly easy to see.
It's the same as Ranthambore Tigers compared to Kanha Tigers compared to Tadoba Tigers compared to Bandhavgarh Tigers, etc. 
All have somewhat distinct looks that have been passed down, sometimes Tigers from other parks make the long trek and contribute a brand new trait but usually it's not as dominate as a bloodline that has lived there for generations. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(01-07-2020, 11:37 PM)Greatearth Wrote: I am not going to waste my time with arguing/proving. I did not disrespect or insult your claim. If you think I insult you, then believe that. Believe what you want and think I am a liar.
About John and Dale.,, I may have been read wrong (I didn't read careful, I only skim through it) or remember wrong since it was two years ago about you were arguing with other user in wildfact.
About advisor.. Big cat people won't clearly provide accurate information unless you know that person in real life. Dhamendra said Ustad was never measured. Now, I hear completely different claims by other users in wildfact here about Ustad's weight. From what I experienced abot jaguar dudes, I clearly having doubt about big cat people. Their answers are no stable. They just change time to time. They are making excuses to keep their information secret. At least, that's still polite. It's much better than douches who are just ignoring emails like the guy in San Diego zoo and many douches from Panthera. I lost respect on many big cat biologists (jaguar people at least) from their rude behaviors. They probably never been educated from their parents when they were young.

I will continue with the important point, the information.

What I have about Dhamendra is this conversation with other poster. @Pckts, can you confirm is this was a conversation with you? To be honest I no longer remember, I just saved the image:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, about an article of Dr Jhala which shows all the tigers recorded in Ranthambore it shows that T-24, which was known since cub, was radiocollared until 2009 when he was ill, the same year when the animal was reported by the article of Khandal. 

Now, it is interesting that Valmik Thapar in his book "Living with Tigers" says that T-24 A.K.A. "Ustad" born in 2006 and was very aggresive, he did not mention any weight or anything, but it is interesting that the weight of 240 kg was, apparently, taken when this tiger was just about 3 years old, so not fully grow. So, this figure of 240 kg may be too high for a 3 years old tiger, or we are missing something. The heaviest subadult tiger that I know is a male of 216 kg captured in Nepal.

I think that knowing what Dr Jhala stated in the image of the document that I posted before, he will be the only one that can actually confirm the real size of T-24, but it will be better if they can publish the data, just like he have done with the lions of Gir in a document of 2019. Reply

[peter]

TO ALL INVOLVED IN THE DEBATE

The debate on size more or less underlined things are not very clear in the department of size (weight). This is the reason I recently proposed to start a kind of task force headed by a poster able and prepared to read and to check information and do it again. Guate is the obvious choice.

In order to prevent a barrage of emails of members of Wildfact to biologists, I proposed to appoint one poster as our contact. A poster interested in good information and able to open doors, meaning Shadow. Other members interested in accurate information about size can assist Guate and Shadow. There is a lot of information, but it has to be checked. And again. I'm not saying fake news extended to big cats, but at times it's close. The last thing we want, is to contribute to misinformation.

Another thing we want to avoid at all costs is confusion, irritation or animosity of some kind. Our readers are interested in good information about wild tigers, not something else.

I agree posting takes a lot of time, Greatearth. Time you don't have at the moment. My advice is to focus on the study. Start writing the papers you have to write and make sure they're up to par or better. It's your future. When you return, focus on a limited number of topics. In-depth information is what we want.

One more thing to finish the post.  

I know plenty of people with outspoken abilities. Unfortunately, most of them are unable to use these in the best possible way. One reason is individuality. Talented people in particular often find it hard to share and to cooperate. They want to do it in their own way right until the end. There's nothing wrong with individuality and drive, but life today is very complicated. Way too complicated to do everything yourself all the time. In the end, it's about knowing how to use your abilities to get to a creation of some kind. This forum is a result of cooperation and teamwork. It shows it can result in a thing of beauty. 

My proposal is to give it a try. If we succeed, we will be able " ... to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea ... ". It's the only way to get a view of the unknown world " ... somewhere between reality and fiction ... ". This was the aim when we started, remember? Reply

[Shadow]

(01-08-2020, 01:21 AM)peter Wrote: TO ALL INVOLVED IN THE DEBATE

The debate on size, albeit in an indirect way, more or less underlined things are not very clear in the department of size (weight). This is the reason I recently proposed to start a kind of task force headed by a poster able and prepared to read and to check information and do it again. Guate is the obvious choice.

In order to prevent a barrage of emails of members of Wildfact to biologists, I proposed to appoint one poster as our contact. A poster interested in accurate information and able to open doors, meaning Shadow. Other members interested in accurate information about size can assist Guate and Shadow. There is a lot of information, but it has to be checked. And again. I'm not saying fake news extended to size, but at times it's real close. The last thing we want, is contribute to spreading misinformation.

Another thing we want to avoid at all costs, Greatearth, is confusion, irritation or animosity of some kind. Our readers are interested in good information about wild tigers, not something else.

I agree posting takes a lot of time. Time you do not have at the moment. My advice is to focus on the study. Start writing the papers you have to write and make sure they're up to par or better. It's your future. When you return, make sure you have time. Focus on a limited number of topics and stay away from things that do not contribute to knowledge about wild tigers. You have the book published in Japan about the destruction of tigers in Korea during the Japanese occupation. I'm sure readers are very interested.

One more thing to finish the post.  

I know plenty of people with outspoken abilities. Unfortunately, most of them are unable to use these abilities in the best possible way. One reason is individuality. Talented people in particular often find it hard to share and to cooperate. They want to do it theirselves and in their own way right until the end. There's nothing wrong with individuality and drive, but life today is very complicated. Way too complicated to do everything yourself all the time, I think. In the end, it's about knowing how to use your abilities to get to a creation of some kind. Yes, I was referring to teamwork. My proposal is to give it a try.

I of course share information, which I´m able to find out. But as some have pointed out and some know from experience, like @GuateGojira  and @Pckts and most likely many others, it can and will take some time. Lately I´ve been asking more about captive animals, but of course I could approach some instances and see what can be found out, conservation biologists in Finnish zoo Korkeasaari have been nice, when I have been in contact for some issues and that zoo is participating to Amur tiger conservation programs. Reply

[GuateGojira]

Count with me @peter, like @Shadow said it will take time but we can do it. Also @Pckts can help us with the jaguars. Reply

[Pckts]

@Greatearth

Debating about internal politics in a world wide non-profit organization is pointless, your claims of knowing or not knowing internal conflict within an employee here or there hold no weight over the organization as a whole nor do they give you the right to generalize all that work or volunteer there.

I'm not sure what your qualifications are or what you claim them to be as I've seen nothing but "big statements with no verification" to back them. I'm glad hear that you think you know more about Jaguars than me, Jaguars need all the help they can get and hopefully you do so you can bring some new information to the table. But I was speaking strictly on the professionals who work for these organizations or that I have personal relationships with. 

In regards to me,
All I've done is speak with as many people who work in these organizations or in the locations where these cats exist, as much as I can. Whether in person, online or directly in the locations themself, I feel as though I contribute a bit but not nearly enough. 

I can always do more!

I also don't claim to know half as much as the guides I've met in my life but I've certainly been able to bring new info to the table that they've all appreciated and found interesting to their studies. But that's also why I feel like your disrespect is petty, it seems to me like you're trying to downgrade all info provided over the years by character assainting professionals.

Now it's your turn, what makes you so sure your more knowledgeable than me or anyone else here in Jaguars
Other than having some rare photos?
Which I'd love to see btw, I'm always interested in rare wildlife images from the past. Reply

[Greatearth]

Pckts

Since Peter told me years ago respect other user and not to involve in conflict. I am not going to argue. I will just answer few.

You called me petty and told me change my attitude and they have done far more for wildlife than anyone else I know. I don't know you are referring to me or any of my friends. I am sure I worked more hard to save any animals than you have while you are traveling and spending here from your keyboard. There are plenty equal people in Asia, Africa, and Americas working as saving animals. Their lives are always ignored unlike them since they are not working in well known western NGO.

I know more about rare jaguar records and I have extremely valuable old jaguar photos in the USA more than anyone in wildfact. I even have many old photo of record jaguars in the the USA. I used to write a lot in jaguars, but I stopped posting anything about any animals (Peter knows why because I told him about this). You only speak to jaguar biologists mainly working in Panthera or southern Brazil or Pantanal. However, I know more names of jaguar biologists through the North America to South America. And I will be honest that I had a lot of disappointment from today's conservation and many big cat biologists (at least, for jaguar biologists). It has nothing to do wiht you honestly, and you would feel I am petty. I rather like other NGO instead of Panthera.

And I was not only referred to people working in Panthera. Other jaguar biologists working in other ngo and another countries in Americas as well. There are plenty nice jaguar people in Panthera and others that I still respect. However, there are people who I really disappointed despite they are working hard to save any animals.
I am not going further since I don't want to make any quarrel in wildfact.



GuateGojira

I did not insult your posts. I think your post was really valuable. Informative posts that I was looking for other subspecies. I just have some doubt about it from my experience on big cat biologists. I think you misunderstood since you only can understand from reading the post, not direct face talk Reply

[Greatearth]

Pckts

I am not going to arguing with you. I am not even going to persuade you to confirm who knows more about jaguars between us. If you think I have nothing besides big statements with no verification. You have your right to believe if that is what you think about me. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-08-2020, 07:03 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Pckts

I am not going to arguing with you. I am not even going to persuade you to confirm who knows more about jaguars between us. If you think I have nothing besides big statements with no verification. You have your right to believe if that is what you think about me.

I'm not looking for persuasion, I'm genuinely interested in your experience?
Like I said, I hope you know far more than me and that you're willing to provide some of the information you've learned and how you came across it. Reply

[BorneanTiger]

See what I've found which allows me to say that the Caspian tiger was not certainly extinct before the start of this century: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-cas...2#pid99912 Reply

[peter]

(01-15-2020, 02:42 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: See what I've found which allows me to say that the Caspian tiger was not certainly extinct before the start of this century: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-caspian-tiger-panthera-tigris-virgata?pid=99887#pid99887

The copy of your post in the Caspian tiger is appreciated. Can you add the links and check if they're working? We also wouldn't mind an evaluation of the information on tigers in Turkey. Use your own words.  

Also add a title every time you post in this thread in the future, as I need titles in order to produce a good index. This one could be: 'Tigers in eastern Turkey - New information'.   

I know people from that part of Turkey. Many of them hunt or used to. They told me eastern Turkey is a wild region with few people. There are opportunities for lynxes and leopards, but tigers is a different story. We have to wait for more solid information.

There's, however, no doubt about the presence of tigers in the southeastern part of Turkey in the recent past. Here's a photograph of the skin of a young tiger killed near Uludere in 1970:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[BorneanTiger]

(01-15-2020, 03:21 PM)peter Wrote:

(01-15-2020, 02:42 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: See what I've found which allows me to say that the Caspian tiger was not certainly extinct before the start of this century: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-caspian-tiger-panthera-tigris-virgata?pid=99887#pid99887

The copy of your post in the Caspian tiger is appreciated. Can you add the links and check if they're working? We also wouldn't mind an evaluation of the information on tigers in Turkey. Use your own words.  

Also add a title every time you post in this thread in the future, as I need titles in order to produce a good index. This one could be: 'Tigers in eastern Turkey - New information'.   

I know people from that part of Turkey. Many of them hunt or used to. They told me eastern Turkey is a wild region with few people. There are opportunities for lynxes and leopards, but tigers is a different story. We have to wait for more solid information.

There's, however, no doubt about the presence of tigers in the southeastern part of Turkey in the recent past. Here's a photograph of the skin of a young tiger killed near Uludere in 1970:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The first 2 links to the works of the WWF on tigers allegedly being sighted in Anatolia and Central Asia, respectively in 2001 and 2003, are working, but as for the 3rd link to the work of Jungius et al. (also of the WWF), which mentions that border guards reported the tiger in the southern part of the Babatag Mountains in 1998 (page 5), it's an archive-URL, and one of those funny URL's that don't show you information on the internet, but download files onto your computer or device, so I'm putting the downloaded file here for your convenience, and the original URL leads to this page showing the mascot panda playing a drum, below their logo, and above their saying "СТРАНИЦА НЕ НАЙДЕНА, Перейдите на главную страницу или воспользуйтесь картой сайта (PAGE NOT FOUND, Go to the main page or use the site map)."

  tiger_pre-feasibility_study.pdf (Size: 4.96 MB / Downloads: 2) Reply

[Shadow]

Here is lecture of Dale Miquelle from November 2015. His part starts from approximately 2:35. This takes time to watch, but very interesting for people who are really interested about tiger conservation and of course conservation overall. 


"Tiger and Wildlife Conservation in Russian Far East
by Dr. Dale Miquelle,
a director of Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS) Russia
Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS) Thailand joined a special lecture, “Using science to inform conservation of the Amur tiger”
at Sanga Sabhasri Auditorium, 60th Anniversary Building, Faculty of Forestry, Kasetsart University on November 13, 2015."

Reply