ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Shadow]

(11-07-2018, 07:55 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Tiger's nose is most important part of his body? Sounds more like the bear. Tiger expels bears from his domain? I have read where tigers do not consider bears as predator competition. Probably the omnivore bear even smells different than a pure-predator. Most sounds good but some questionable.

Nose for sure is important to every predator, especially for solitary animals without help of a pack or pride. Expelling was for me odd part  of that message from Krasnykh. Still it was also interesting because even if that was inaccurate expression, it raises question about brown bear population at that area. Are too many female bears been killed there reducing number of cubs? And if so, what is the reason... tigers? Poachers? Irresponsible legal hunting... I mean for instance in Finland hunting is legal, when officials give permission. But killing a mother bear with cubs is always illegal unless there is imminent threat to people for some reason. Stupid hunters can do a lot of damage if just shooting first bear on sight without making sure what is the situation.

Hopefully, what ever the situation is, it wouldn´t be result of poaching and/or stupid hunters. Reply

[brotherbear]

(11-07-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-07-2018, 07:55 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Tiger's nose is most important part of his body? Sounds more like the bear. Tiger expels bears from his domain? I have read where tigers do not consider bears as predator competition. Probably the omnivore bear even smells different than a pure-predator. Most sounds good but some questionable.

Nose for sure is important to every predator, especially for solitary animals without help of a pack or pride. Expelling was for me odd part  of that message from Krasnykh. Still it was also interesting because even if that was inaccurate expression, it raises question about brown bear population at that area. Are too many female bears been killed there reducing number of cubs? And if so, what is the reason... tigers? Poachers? Irresponsible legal hunting... I mean for instance in Finland hunting is legal, when officials give permission. But killing a mother bear with cubs is always illegal unless there is imminent threat to people for some reason. Stupid hunters can do a lot of damage if just shooting first bear on sight without making sure what is the situation.

Hopefully, what ever the situation is, it wouldn´t be result of poaching and/or stupid hunters.

Important yes, but for a big cat not most important. Wouldn't you say sight and hearing is more important to a big cat than his sense of smell? Bears, being more scavenger than predator, his nose is all important. As for poachers, if this is the problem, should be dealt with harshly. Reply

[Shadow]

(11-07-2018, 09:32 PM)brotherbear Wrote:

(11-07-2018, 08:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-07-2018, 07:55 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Tiger's nose is most important part of his body? Sounds more like the bear. Tiger expels bears from his domain? I have read where tigers do not consider bears as predator competition. Probably the omnivore bear even smells different than a pure-predator. Most sounds good but some questionable.

Nose for sure is important to every predator, especially for solitary animals without help of a pack or pride. Expelling was for me odd part  of that message from Krasnykh. Still it was also interesting because even if that was inaccurate expression, it raises question about brown bear population at that area. Are too many female bears been killed there reducing number of cubs? And if so, what is the reason... tigers? Poachers? Irresponsible legal hunting... I mean for instance in Finland hunting is legal, when officials give permission. But killing a mother bear with cubs is always illegal unless there is imminent threat to people for some reason. Stupid hunters can do a lot of damage if just shooting first bear on sight without making sure what is the situation.

Hopefully, what ever the situation is, it wouldn´t be result of poaching and/or stupid hunters.

Important yes, but for a big cat not most important. Wouldn't you say sight and hearing is more important to a big cat than his sense of smell? Bears, being more scavenger than predator, his nose is all important. As for poachers, if this is the problem, should be dealt with harshly.

Well, I think, that losing ability to smell and track down animals would be pretty much like losing one limb. So much more difficult to find prey, that starving soon and then when finding prey, much more difficult to hunt in weakened state... Hearing and seeing wild animals can happen only in relatively short range. Maybe it is impossible to say, what is the most important sense, but for sure hearing, seeing and smelling are combined that trio, that losing one means big trouble.

What comes to poaching, that´s of course speculation. But because tigers and bears have co-existed in that area thousands of years and there has been all the time known interaction between these animals, I don´t believe a minute, that tigers would have suddenly expelled bears. So if there is now observation, that less bears than before, first thing coming in mind is result of some human actions. Logging, poaching etc. Something done effecting to bears especially. 

But I think, that Krashnyk was just somewhat sloppy, when she wrote about this matter and didn´t think it through carefully. It can happen :) Not the end of the world. Otherwise I found her message very interesting and obviously she has a lot of knowledge. Reply

[Shadow]

(11-07-2018, 07:35 PM)epaiva Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

B

Heh, not the easiest thing to find information about population of Ussuri brown bear in Russia. But here is one document now. When looking at page 61, it can be seen, that in area, where brown bears and tigers live, density of bears is moderate as it is in large areas of Russia, where no tigers at all.Then again on page 63 there is estimation, that there are about 9500-10 000 Ussuri brown bears and on the other side of border in China 3500 brown bears. Numbers are about 30 years old, but I think, that it is quite safe to say, that there are a lot of bears at Ussuri area also today. Of course some local differences can and will appear, but it is quite clear, that brown bears and tigers have to co-exist also in future in those areas as before. Of course if someone find new information, it is interesting.

Anyway this document was very interesting even though a little bit old.

http://www.sekj.org/PDF/anzf29/anz29-057-068.pdf Reply

[Shadow]

(11-08-2018, 03:11 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-07-2018, 07:35 PM)epaiva Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

B

Heh, not the easiest thing to find information about population of Ussuri brown bear in Russia. But here is one document now. When looking at page 61, it can be seen, that in area, where brown bears and tigers live, density of bears is moderate as it is in large areas of Russia, where no tigers at all.Then again on page 63 there is estimation, that there are about 9500-10 000 Ussuri brown bears and on the other side of border in China 3500 brown bears. Numbers are about 30 years old, but I think, that it is quite safe to say, that there are a lot of bears at Ussuri area also today. Of course some local differences can and will appear, but it is quite clear, that brown bears and tigers have to co-exist also in future in those areas as before. Of course if someone find new information, it is interesting.

Anyway this document was very interesting even though a little bit old.

http://www.sekj.org/PDF/anzf29/anz29-057-068.pdf

Here is another document, which looks like to be valid and interesting information of bears. And this one is new. But also in this no indication about tigers expelling bears. Is this document familiar to someone, it looks to be good, but it would be nice to know if that is really official. That site isn´t looking to be so professional as usually, still document itself looks to be quite ok.

http://www.sizenken.biodic.go.jp/nichiro/Abstracts.pdf Reply

[tigerluver]

Please discuss ideas, not members. Discussions that will never have a concrete answer can still be held without accusing anyone of bias and the like. The fact that we are unsure of the answer is what makes ecology interesting and its discussion eternal. The infinite nature of such discussions can cause confrontation. Nonetheless, please remember that in the end, we are all part of a select few that truly care about an aspect of nature enough to stand for it, and thus we are all more like-minded than it seems on the surface. Reply

[Olga.bohai]

Hello everybody!
I've just joined your forum and want to specify my yesterday message about tigers expelled brown bears. This is only my assumption, not an axiom, I'm not a scientist and just provide big cats watching tours in my region and communicate with the reserves a lot. Nobody can confirm such fact as there is really small amount of records about tigers and brown bears behavior because Russians started to populate Primorsky krai in the beginning of XX century, nobody cared about rare animals protection, the small amount of tiny reserves got a small amount of budget money during USSR government and especially in 1990-s when there were no state budget for schools and hospitals not talking about reserves... The situation changed in 2000-s when international funds like WWF, WCS attracted world's attention to the problem of tigers and leopards extermination and only after that the reserves could attract money for their work on tracking, recording, camera traps etc.
I've founded for you the following information:
Records 1965-1976 There were 17 fights between Siberian tiger and brown bear. in 8 cases they both went away, in 6 cases tiger killed bear, in 3 cases bear won. Plus 9 cases of tigers attack for bears dens while sleep (minus 7 adult bears and 9 cubs).
What about population:
brown bears (information for 2013, there is no new data, but only official information for the beginning of 2018 the bears' population decreased for 30% for the last 5 years in Russia).
Primorsky krai (165 000 km2) 2300 bears
Khabarovsky krai (787 000 km2) 12 440 bears

Kamchatka (270 000 km2) 20 120 bears

tigers:
Primorsky krai 2013 about 310, 2018 about 440
Khabarovsky krai 2013 about 85, 2018 about 110.
Kamchatka 0

Also scientists and hunters say 150 kg male tiger kills 150 kg male brown bear. But we can't answer who is stronger in taiga, there are a lot of influencing factors: poachers, hunger, ungulates and feed amount, deforestation etc.

So I'd suggest you to stop arguing about impossible answer and spend this time on saving our planet))

P.S. Sorry for my bad English Reply

[Shadow]

(11-08-2018, 01:01 PM)Olga.bohai Wrote: Hello everybody!
I've just joined your forum and want to specify my yesterday message about tigers expelled brown bears. This is only my assumption, not an axiom, I'm not a scientist and just provide big cats watching tours in my region and communicate with the reserves a lot. Nobody can confirm such fact as there is really small amount of records about tigers and brown bears behavior because Russians started to populate Primorsky krai in the beginning of XX century, nobody cared about rare animals protection, the small amount of tiny reserves got a small amount of budget money during USSR government and especially in 1990-s when there were no state budget for schools and hospitals not talking about reserves... The situation changed in 2000-s when international funds like WWF, WCS attracted world's attention to the problem of tigers and leopards extermination and only after that the reserves could attract money for their work on tracking, recording, camera traps etc.
I've founded for you the following information:
Records 1965-1976 There were 17 fights between Siberian tiger and brown bear. in 8 cases they both went away, in 6 cases tiger killed bear, in 3 cases bear won. Plus 9 cases of tigers attack for bears dens while sleep (minus 7 adult bears and 9 cubs).
What about population:
brown bears (information for 2013, there is no new data, but only official information for the beginning of 2018 the bears' population decreased for 30% for the last 5 years in Russia).
Primorsky krai (165 000 km2) 2300 bears
Khabarovsky krai (787 000 km2) 12 440 bears

Kamchatka (270 000 km2) 20 120 bears

tigers:
Primorsky krai 2013 about 310, 2018 about 440
Khabarovsky krai 2013 about 85, 2018 about 110.
Kamchatka 0

Also scientists and hunters say 150 kg male tiger kills 150 kg male brown bear. But we can't answer who is stronger in taiga, there are a lot of influencing factors: poachers, hunger, ungulates and feed amount, deforestation etc.

So I'd suggest you to stop arguing about impossible answer and spend this time on saving our planet))

P.S. Sorry for my bad English

Welcome! Nice to have someone like you here :) Arguing about some animals seems to be endless swamp in many places. I find that topic too in a way quite worn out. Old information debated over and over again and nothing really relevant new information in years. There they are, tigers and bears, certain balance found between them, but as usual, for people that kind of balance is almost impossible :) But as long as there is life, there is hope....

I would find it far more interesting to hear from local person, that how do you see situation there in reality what comes to logging and poaching.... I think, that those two issues are relevant things what comes to tigers and all animals there. This thread is after all about tigers and threat of extinction... Reply

[Shadow]

(11-08-2018, 01:01 PM)Olga.bohai Wrote: Hello everybody!
I've just joined your forum and want to specify my yesterday message about tigers expelled brown bears. This is only my assumption, not an axiom, I'm not a scientist and just provide big cats watching tours in my region and communicate with the reserves a lot. Nobody can confirm such fact as there is really small amount of records about tigers and brown bears behavior because Russians started to populate Primorsky krai in the beginning of XX century, nobody cared about rare animals protection, the small amount of tiny reserves got a small amount of budget money during USSR government and especially in 1990-s when there were no state budget for schools and hospitals not talking about reserves... The situation changed in 2000-s when international funds like WWF, WCS attracted world's attention to the problem of tigers and leopards extermination and only after that the reserves could attract money for their work on tracking, recording, camera traps etc.
I've founded for you the following information:
Records 1965-1976 There were 17 fights between Siberian tiger and brown bear. in 8 cases they both went away, in 6 cases tiger killed bear, in 3 cases bear won. Plus 9 cases of tigers attack for bears dens while sleep (minus 7 adult bears and 9 cubs).
What about population:
brown bears (information for 2013, there is no new data, but only official information for the beginning of 2018 the bears' population decreased for 30% for the last 5 years in Russia).
Primorsky krai (165 000 km2) 2300 bears
Khabarovsky krai (787 000 km2) 12 440 bears

Kamchatka (270 000 km2) 20 120 bears

tigers:
Primorsky krai 2013 about 310, 2018 about 440
Khabarovsky krai 2013 about 85, 2018 about 110.
Kamchatka 0

Also scientists and hunters say 150 kg male tiger kills 150 kg male brown bear. But we can't answer who is stronger in taiga, there are a lot of influencing factors: poachers, hunger, ungulates and feed amount, deforestation etc.

So I'd suggest you to stop arguing about impossible answer and spend this time on saving our planet))

P.S. Sorry for my bad English

Oh, I had one question too and maybe this explains some of your observations? Here is quote: 

"At present time, the actual problem in Amur region (Russia) is the population of brown bear. Forest fires have direct impact upon the conditions of this species’ habitat. Fires destroy their food supply and impair protective and breeding conditions. Brown bear is forced to migrate in search of food and sufficient habitat. "

That is from this document, which was quite interesting and it is very new. It would be nice if you would even briefly check it and tell what do you think?

http://www.sizenken.biodic.go.jp/nichiro/Abstracts.pdf Reply

[brotherbear]

Welcome to Wildfact Olga, and you have my deepest heart-felt apologies if I hurt your feelings with my criticism. Also, I greatly admire what you do for a living. 
150 kg bear is typical size prey for a tiger. 
 
150 kilograms is equal to

330.69 pounds (avoirdupois) Reply

[epaiva]

(11-08-2018, 01:01 PM)Olga.bohai Wrote: Hello everybody!
I've just joined your forum and want to specify my yesterday message about tigers expelled brown bears. This is only my assumption, not an axiom, I'm not a scientist and just provide big cats watching tours in my region and communicate with the reserves a lot. Nobody can confirm such fact as there is really small amount of records about tigers and brown bears behavior because Russians started to populate Primorsky krai in the beginning of XX century, nobody cared about rare animals protection, the small amount of tiny reserves got a small amount of budget money during USSR government and especially in 1990-s when there were no state budget for schools and hospitals not talking about reserves... The situation changed in 2000-s when international funds like WWF, WCS attracted world's attention to the problem of tigers and leopards extermination and only after that the reserves could attract money for their work on tracking, recording, camera traps etc.
I've founded for you the following information:
Records 1965-1976 There were 17 fights between Siberian tiger and brown bear. in 8 cases they both went away, in 6 cases tiger killed bear, in 3 cases bear won. Plus 9 cases of tigers attack for bears dens while sleep (minus 7 adult bears and 9 cubs).
What about population:
brown bears (information for 2013, there is no new data, but only official information for the beginning of 2018 the bears' population decreased for 30% for the last 5 years in Russia).
Primorsky krai (165 000 km2) 2300 bears
Khabarovsky krai (787 000 km2) 12 440 bears

Kamchatka (270 000 km2) 20 120 bears

tigers:
Primorsky krai 2013 about 310, 2018 about 440
Khabarovsky krai 2013 about 85, 2018 about 110.
Kamchatka 0

Also scientists and hunters say 150 kg male tiger kills 150 kg male brown bear. But we can't answer who is stronger in taiga, there are a lot of influencing factors: poachers, hunger, ungulates and feed amount, deforestation etc.

So I'd suggest you to stop arguing about impossible answer and spend this time on saving our planet))

P.S. Sorry for my bad English

@Olga.bohai
Welcome to the Forum, thanks a lot for your valuable information. Hope you enjoy your time here in the Forum. 
Regards Reply

[Vegeta San]

(11-08-2018, 01:01 PM)Olga.bohai Wrote: Also scientists and hunters say 150 kg male tiger kills 150 kg male brown bear. But we can't answer who is stronger in taiga, there are a lot of influencing factors: poachers, hunger, ungulates and feed amount, deforestation etc.

Sorry, if I done anything wrong. But one question.
Based on what this "150kgs tiger kill 150kgs Brown bear" analysis comes from? 
You see brother bear behind your comment making a ridiculous claim as "150kgs bear is typical size for tigers".
He based on what you said. So, I'd like to see the source of that.

According to former russian biologist SP kuncherenko Average Tiger (amur) is always stronger than average brown bear (ussuri)..

"However, interest in nature, as a rule, arises from attempts to find answers to "childish" questions. In fairness, it should be noted that the issues of the relationship between the Ussuri tiger and the brown bear still attracted the attention of professionals. Nevertheless, there is not much reliable information about the resolution of conflict situations between the two "masters" of the taiga. S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger than the average bear. Of the 17, reliably known to him, cases of fights of a tiger with a brown bear in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976."
https://shish02.livejournal.com/7269.html?thread=55909 Reply

[peter]

ALL

This thread is about wild tigers, not something else. In order open the door to their world, good information is crucial. In order to get there, strict moderation is needed.

A week ago or so, I saw a gathering storm. Although good advice was offered, things got out of hand while I was out. The result was animosity and a bad climate. In post 1,938, Tigerluver again offered good advice. As it didn't have the intended effect, he will now clean the thread. This means that

1 - all posts not related to content will be deleted;

2 - all preference-driven posts will be deleted;

3 - all posts resulting from animosity will be deleted; and

4 - all posters ignoring forum rules as well as good advice will be warned or denied access. 

Vegeta, always close to overdoing it, didn't quite get the message. We'll make him an offer he can't refuse, meaning he's out for some time. The break will not only enable him to study tigers and bears in the Russian Far East in detail (a), but also think about the purpose of a debate (b). When he agrees it is a respectful exchange driven by the quest to get to good information (and not a means to confirm preconceived ideas often resulting in animosity), he can report for duty.

As to clashes between 150 kg. animals in Wild Russia. A 150-kg. male brown bear is not full-grown and inexperienced, whereas a 150-kg. male tiger, also not quite full-grown, has a lot of experience in the department of hunting. A full-grown male brown bear has about 100-200 pounds on a full-grown male tiger. If we add extra layers of fat and muscle in the shoulder and neck region, it means a male tiger interested in bear has a problem. 

OLGA.BOHAI

Hope you will enjoy the forum and many thanks for the information on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. Reply

[Olga.bohai]

(11-08-2018, 02:10 PM)Shadow Wrote: "At present time, the actual problem in Amur region (Russia) is the population of brown bear. Forest fires have direct impact upon the conditions of this species’ habitat. Fires destroy their food supply and impair protective and breeding conditions. Brown bear is forced to migrate in search of food and sufficient habitat. "

That is from this document, which was quite interesting and it is very new. It would be nice if you would even briefly check it and tell what do you think?

http://www.sizenken.biodic.go.jp/nichiro/Abstracts.pdf

This article is interesting, everything there is like it was. I also know two of the authors personally.
Fires is a great problem. I think it is on the first place between all problems about preserving wildlife, second - poachers. Sometimes they (fire and poachers) work together. For example poachers want to get a lot of salmon on the river during spawning when it is prohibited. They make fires at another places to attract rangers' attention. So as a result taiga is on fire,  all rangers and firemen tries to to extinguish the fire (it takes from 1 day to 2 months ), meanwhile poachers draw tones of salmon caviar and get away with it. Sometimes logging companies make fires. Sometimes for agriculture purposes. And finally everybody suffers because of it. Unfortunately the reserves don't have enough rangers, helicopters and equipment to fight with the fires quickly. 
The second huge problem is Chinese poachers. This is from my post in Instagram:

" Shocking news from China! ‼️⠀
During more than 100 years Chinese poachers have been killing our tigers, leopards and bears for their traditional medicine (but the real medical benefit hasn’t been confirmed by the scientists till now). ⠀
⠀
Than in 2017 China launched the Northern Tiger and Leopard National Park on a huge territory. It borders with our Russian Leopard Land National Park. They cooperate to preserve the last 80-100 Amur leopards and about 50 Siberian tigers. ⠀
⠀
Every year our boarder guards arrest dozens of Chinese citizens with smuggling of taiga animals and plants. For example in January 2018 one poachers’ group was arrested on the Russian-Chinese border with 850 (!!!) bears’ paws, tigers’ fur and bones. And this is only one solved crime. Just imagine the scope of poaching! ⠀
⠀
And now it’s realized that Chinese government has just legalized the use of endangered tiger and rhino products for “medical” purposes after 25-years ban! ⠀
What is it? Chinese hypocrisy? Who wants to save one of 2 billions Chinese with the help of one Siberian tiger? Anyone?⠀
We’re infuriated! Who can help with this situation? WWF? WCS? UN? ⠀
Stop to devastate our taiga! ⠀" Reply

[Shadow]

(11-09-2018, 05:13 AM)Olga.bohai Wrote:

(11-08-2018, 02:10 PM)Shadow Wrote: "At present time, the actual problem in Amur region (Russia) is the population of brown bear. Forest fires have direct impact upon the conditions of this species’ habitat. Fires destroy their food supply and impair protective and breeding conditions. Brown bear is forced to migrate in search of food and sufficient habitat. "

That is from this document, which was quite interesting and it is very new. It would be nice if you would even briefly check it and tell what do you think?

http://www.sizenken.biodic.go.jp/nichiro/Abstracts.pdf

This article is interesting, everything there is like it was. I also know two of the authors personally.
Fires is a great problem. I think it is on the first place between all problems about preserving wildlife, second - poachers. Sometimes they (fire and poachers) work together. For example poachers want to get a lot of salmon on the river during spawning when it is prohibited. They make fires at another places to attract rangers' attention. So as a result taiga is on fire,  all rangers and firemen tries to to extinguish the fire (it takes from 1 day to 2 months ), meanwhile poachers draw tones of salmon caviar and get away with it. Sometimes logging companies make fires. Sometimes for agriculture purposes. And finally everybody suffers because of it. Unfortunately the reserves don't have enough rangers, helicopters and equipment to fight with the fires quickly. 
The second huge problem is Chinese poachers. This is from my post in Instagram:

" Shocking news from China! ‼️⠀
During more than 100 years Chinese poachers have been killing our tigers, leopards and bears for their traditional medicine (but the real medical benefit hasn’t been confirmed by the scientists till now). ⠀
⠀
Than in 2017 China launched the Northern Tiger and Leopard National Park on a huge territory. It borders with our Russian Leopard Land National Park. They cooperate to preserve the last 80-100 Amur leopards and about 50 Siberian tigers. ⠀
⠀
Every year our boarder guards arrest dozens of Chinese citizens with smuggling of taiga animals and plants. For example in January 2018 one poachers’ group was arrested on the Russian-Chinese border with 850 (!!!) bears’ paws, tigers’ fur and bones. And this is only one solved crime. Just imagine the scope of poaching! ⠀
⠀
And now it’s realized that Chinese government has just legalized the use of endangered tiger and rhino products for “medical” purposes after 25-years ban! ⠀
What is it? Chinese hypocrisy? Who wants to save one of 2 billions Chinese with the help of one Siberian tiger? Anyone?⠀
We’re infuriated! Who can help with this situation? WWF? WCS? UN? ⠀
Stop to devastate our taiga! ⠀"

Yes, sadly I have to say, that I´m not surprised at all about what you write. Poachers are many times unbelievable cruel and.... totally irresponsible. It is easy to understand difficulties during fires, distances are so vast and difficult terrain to move around. There are always these greedy people if there is someone paying them. Latest development in China was so strange, total stupidity and for sure creates more difficulties like there wouldn´t be already more than enough. 

It is nice to know, that people there care and want to change things. Without that spirit everything else would be pointless. Others can help, but will to preserve has to be always in population living in same area as wildlife, which needs conservation, I think. For China should be created as much international pressure as possible to reverse latest decisions. Reply