There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
07-27-2018, 02:42 PM( This post was last modified: 07-27-2018, 04:01 PM by Rishi )
Prior to the International Tiger day on 29th July, the Minister of Environment Forest and Climate Change, Dr. Harsh Vardhan informed the Rajya Sabha (upper house of Parliament of India) replying to a query during the question hour, that preliminary data from the tiger census suggest a country-wide increase population as well as range.
The states like Maharashtra & Madhya Pradesh, which saw considerable tiger deaths in last few years are actually leading.
In MP, tiger occupied habitat has effectively doubled in past 4 years.
During 2014 census assessment of first phase, presence of 308 tigers was found in the state's 717 forest beats.
Against that, evidence of the presence of tigers has been found in 1432 beats in four cycles held from February 5 to March 26 in year 2018.
The forest officer who is serving for wildlife protection in the state declared that the current data directs that tiger population may extend well over 400 in Madhya Pradesh.
The advice was to take a long break and use it to extend your knowledge on tigers and bears. You didn't, meaning you again ignored good advice as well as a permanent ban. This post again has good advice. I hope you will use it this time. Your posts, by the way, will be deleted. This post is the last response to your questions.
a - Yuku
There was a forum called Animals Versus Animals (AVA). It has many threads in which tigers and bears feature. One of them in particular ('Male brown bears are not out of the predatory reach of tigers if of similar size') is interesting.
b - Carnivora
This forum has different threads on tigers and bears as well. Most of them are a good read.
c - WildFact
Same as above. This thread has more info on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East.
d - Shaggy God
Dedicated to bears. Although a bit selective, it has good information about tigers and bears in the RFE.
e - How to approach information on tigers and bears
Russian biologists collected a lot of good information. They're the ones with firsthand experience. When you visit forums and start reading, you'll find links to the original source of scans used in posts.
Before you read anything, open your mind. Make notes and try to falsify your convictions on tigers and bears. Distinguish between bear species, gender, age and circumstances. Try to find information about Sludskij, Sysoev, Bromley, Rukovsky, Rakov, Abramov and Krechmar (there are many more). Don't go for conclusions and eliminate preference. Also read books written by hunters and naturalists.
f - How to post
If you go for preference, stay at home. If you decide to go public and decide to join a forum, read the forum rules before you move. Respect them at all times. Accept that animosity is typical for most animal forums. This is the reason biologists only very seldom join a forum. Some posters are better informed than others, but most are kneedeep in preference and all the rest of it. This means you, informationwise, always are on your own.
g - How to use information
If you select information fitting your convictions, you won't learn anything. If you go for the opposite, you will get to a bit of knowledge, but it will take years. When you think you are informed and join a forum, accept that most posters will go for you with everything they have. It's the old top dog game. Don't bite, as it never produces anything of value. The aim of participating is getting answers to questions.
When you're done with forums and reading, visit the Russian Far East. Beautiful place. Talk to people who know. Also talk to trainers and keepers in order to find the differences between captive and wild animals.
h - Tigers and bears
Amur tigers are very different from other subspecies. They learned to deal with wild boars and bears. And the other way round. Amur brown bears are known for their disposition. Based on what I read, I'd say there are no fixed rules of conduct. In bears and tigers, anything is possible.
In average-sized animals (up to 200 kg. or 440 pounds), tigers dominate (2:1). In the heavyweight division, large male bears may have the edge. Half a century ago, Russian biologists thought they won 'on points'. Those interviewed by Vaillant (hunters and biologists) two decades ago agreed. Not saying that large bears always dominate tigers, but they are prepared to confront a male tiger on his kill in times of need. A tiger can hunt again. Why invest energy in a risky fight with a powerful foe with a neck circumference of 3 feet and more? Besides, there are different ways to get to Rome. Male tigers, as Vaillant said, are possessive and vindictive animals. If robbed by a large male bear, chances are there could be repercussions of some kind. My guess is that most male bears would agree. This is why it's difficult to find good information about serious encounters between adult males of both species.
Captive Amur tigers and brown bears do not seem very different from their wild relatives. Mortal enemies. They will most definitely go for each other given half a chance. Male Amur tigers are not afraid of large® bears. The outcome of an encounter is anybody's guess. Male brown bears are powerful animals, but they tend to overplay their hand at times. This, however, is also true for tigers, especially young adult males. The tiger featuring in Sysoev's story ('Amba') had the initiative for most of the fight. Every time he attacked, the neck was targeted. When the vertebrae had almost been reached, the bear got his chance and finished the tiger. According to those who hunted them (India), young male tigers often go all-out, whereas a more experienced tiger might have retreated to return later.
There's another, more indirect, way to get to a kind of conclusion. Tigers and bears have been neighbours for a very long time. Although tigers hunt bears for food and win most fights at kill-sites, the balance does not seem to have changed over time. One reason is that they do not affect the population. Could be different in wild boars. In the recent past, specialists stayed until all boars had been killed and eaten. Bear tigers do not annihilate their main source of food. One reason is they decided against attacking large bears, as too dangerous. Even at equal chances (1:1), it's too risky. It no doubt happens every now and then, but incidents of this nature seem to be very rare. My guess is these large bears in particular breed.
i - To conclude
*This image is copyright of its original author
Vegeta San is actually a different person, but i guess it doesnt matter as they both are working hand in hand. Anyways I am fascinated by your posts btw, i love reading them, keep it up.
I wouldn't use them for a table. I often noticed that measurements are unreliable. A biologist I visited some years ago told me he had a very large skull of a wild male Java tiger. As he didn't have the equipment needed, I had a few doubts. When I measured the skull, it turned out to be an average-sized skull of a captive male Java tiger.
Another biologist, also a conservator, informed me about the skull of a lioness he had added to the collection. The 'lioness' had been shot somewhere in Africa after she had attacked and killed a man a long time ago. He wanted it determinated to be sure. When I told him it was the skull of a youngish male polar bear, he refused to pay.
Skulls are an object of desire for many (taxidermists, biologists and private collectors). More often than not, they're not interested in details and accurate measurements. When they want to know more about a particular skull, they visit a museum. Way cheaper than visiting a specialist. At times, however, they have no option but to contact me.
Museum conservators know about skulls, but there is a difference between 'skulls', skulls of predators and big cat skulls. Skullwise, most of them (but not all) are able to distinguish between a lion and a tiger, but that's about it. Dr. P. van Bree (former zoological Museum of Amsterdam) and Dr. D. Morike (Stuttgart) were exceptions to the general rule. Determining a skull can take a lot of time. You have to be really interested.
As was already mentioned an info has come that subadult male tiger Saihan has killed a grey wolf in Jewish Autonomious region, Russian Far East. https://xakac.info/news/73739
There should be nothing super natural in such of event taking into account power ratio of the two species but I'm personally reading for first time such particular account. In the regions South of Amur river where tiger population is sufficient timber wolves are rear sometimes untill the edge of extinction. Amur tiger is notorious with his untolerance and animosity towards timber wolves. Unlike Bengal tiger probably due to the scarcity of food in the Northern forest competition between the two large predators is much harsher. When great Russian traveler Vladimir Arseniev in the begining of 20th century was roaming many times in Ussuriland he never described grey wolves in the tiger country. Later in 30's and 40's when Amur tiger was almost exterminated timber wolves became extremely numerous in Ussuriland. However since 70's and 80's with the recovering of Amur tiger is observed sharp decline in wolf population in Russian Ussuriland. I don't think that tigers physically exterminate wolves in large quantities, just wolves quit arias with dense tiger population and migrate in arias with less or no tigers around.
The murder last month occurred North of Amur river in a region where tigers were reintroduced only few years ago hence tiger population is quite scarce and where timber wolves are still numerous. Probably local wolves are not yet very experienced with the tigers and are less cautious.
They still don't give up as we could see in this video from the same region where grey wolf in comic way is trying to outjump tiger mark on the tree and to leave his mark higher:
The advice was to take a long break and use it to extend your knowledge on tigers and bears. You didn't, meaning you again ignored good advice as well as a permanent ban. This post again has good advice. I hope you will use it this time. Your posts, by the way, will be deleted. This post is the last response to your questions.
a - Yuku
There was a forum called Animals Versus Animals (AVA). It has many threads in which tigers and bears feature. One of them in particular ('Male brown bears are not out of the predatory reach of tigers if of similar size') is interesting.
b - Carnivora
This forum has different threads on tigers and bears as well. Most of them are a good read.
c - WildFact
Same as above. This thread has more info on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East.
d - Shaggy God
Dedicated to bears. Although a bit selective, it has good information about tigers and bears in the RFE.
e - How to approach information on tigers and bears
Russian biologists collected a lot of good information. They're the ones with firsthand experience. When you visit forums and start reading, you'll find links to the original source of scans used in posts.
Before you read anything, open your mind. Make notes and try to falsify your convictions on tigers and bears. Distinguish between bear species, gender, age and circumstances. Try to find information about Sludskij, Sysoev, Bromley, Rukovsky, Rakov, Abramov and Krechmar (there are many more). Don't go for conclusions and eliminate preference. Also read books written by hunters and naturalists.
f - How to post
If you go for preference, stay at home. If you decide to go public and decide to join a forum, read the forum rules before you move. Respect them at all times. Accept that animosity is typical for most animal forums. This is the reason biologists only very seldom join a forum. Some posters are better informed than others, but most are kneedeep in preference and all the rest of it. This means you, informationwise, always are on your own.
g - How to use information
If you select information fitting your convictions, you won't learn anything. If you go for the opposite, you will get to a bit of knowledge, but it will take years. When you think you are informed and join a forum, accept that most posters will go for you with everything they have. It's the old top dog game. Don't bite, as it never produces anything of value. The aim of participating is getting answers to questions.
When you're done with forums and reading, visit the Russian Far East. Beautiful place. Talk to people who know. Also talk to trainers and keepers in order to find the differences between captive and wild animals.
h - Tigers and bears
Amur tigers are very different from other subspecies. They learned to deal with wild boars and bears. And the other way round. Amur brown bears are known for their disposition. Based on what I read, I'd say there are no fixed rules of conduct. In bears and tigers, anything is possible.
In average-sized animals (up to 200 kg. or 440 pounds), tigers dominate (2:1). In the heavyweight division, large male bears may have the edge. Half a century ago, Russian biologists thought they won 'on points'. Those interviewed by Vaillant (hunters and biologists) two decades ago agreed. Not saying that large bears always dominate tigers, but they are prepared to confront a male tiger on his kill in times of need. A tiger can hunt again. Why invest energy in a risky fight with a powerful foe with a neck circumference of 3 feet and more? Besides, there are different ways to get to Rome. Male tigers, as Vaillant said, are possessive and vindictive animals. If robbed by a large male bear, chances are there could be repercussions of some kind. My guess is that most male bears would agree. This is why it's difficult to find good information about serious encounters between adult males of both species.
Captive Amur tigers and brown bears do not seem very different from their wild relatives. Mortal enemies. They will most definitely go for each other given half a chance. Male Amur tigers are not afraid of large® bears. The outcome of an encounter is anybody's guess. Male brown bears are powerful animals, but they tend to overplay their hand at times. This, however, is also true for tigers, especially young adult males. The tiger featuring in Sysoev's story ('Amba') had the initiative for most of the fight. Every time he attacked, the neck was targeted. When the vertebrae had almost been reached, the bear got his chance and finished the tiger. According to those who hunted them (India), young male tigers often go all-out, whereas a more experienced tiger might have retreated to return later.
There's another, more indirect, way to get to a kind of conclusion. Tigers and bears have been neighbours for a very long time. Although tigers hunt bears for food and win most fights at kill-sites, the balance does not seem to have changed over time. One reason is that they do not affect the population. Could be different in wild boars. In the recent past, specialists stayed until all boars had been killed and eaten. Bear tigers do not annihilate their main source of food. One reason is they decided against attacking large bears, as too dangerous. Even at equal chances (1:1), it's too risky. It no doubt happens every now and then, but incidents of this nature seem to be very rare. My guess is these large bears in particular breed.
i - To conclude
*This image is copyright of its original author
Vegeta San is actually a different person, but i guess it doesnt matter as they both are working hand in hand. Anyways I am fascinated by your posts btw, i love reading them, keep it up.
You're not the first one who told me. It seems that Genghis and Vegeta San consider swapping personalities a delicacy.
Anyhow. What counts, is the result. I know fundamentalism is quite popular these days, but we don't want it over here. If they swap it for something else, we might reconsider our decision. Reading forum rules definitely helps as well. But reading takes time. In this particular case, I'd say at least 3 months.
Compliment appreciated. Part of it should be directed at Warsaw. Although also competing in the department of preference, he delivers good information at times (same for WaveRiders). When considering a post about tigers and bears, I usually start with a draft. After it has been posted, one of them (Warsaw or WaveRiders) responds in Carnivora. If not completely directed by preference (or anger), the response will be considered. In this way, errors will be removed. This, somewhat indirect, way of working is time-consuming, but it often results in good information. Way more important than anything else.
I started work on a follow-up on tigers and bears. This time, descriptions of incidents between males of both species will be mixed with opinions of those considered 'in the know'. When you read it, remember the first post is a draft. This means it will be heavily edited later. The final version often is the best.
As tigers and bears are an enigma, it will take a lot of reading to get to a decent conclusion. The last thing we need, is a visit of preference or its neighbour fundamentalism.
07-30-2018, 01:15 PM( This post was last modified: 07-30-2018, 01:16 PM by Shir Babr )
(07-30-2018, 09:56 AM)peter Wrote: Skulls of captive big cats are offered on different sites. This is one of them: https://www.sideshowtoy.com/collectibles...&archive=y. At the bottom of the page, you'll find the details of that particular skull (length, width, height and weight).
Another biologist, also a conservator, informed me about the skull of a lioness he had added to the collection. The 'lioness' had been shot somewhere in Africa after she had attacked and killed a man a long time ago. He wanted it determinated to be sure. When I told him it was the skull of a youngish male polar bear, he refused to pay.
I was saving for one of those replica skulls from boneclones, and I asked a zoologist his opinion on their products, he told me that if I just wanted something to put on my shelf for decoration it was ok, but that if I was looking to use it in a scientific study it wasn't really useful. Guess that isn't important for most people.
That guy that wasn't even able to distinguish a feline skull from a bear's sounds shady and like some major fraud.
(07-30-2018, 10:27 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Amur tiger is notorious with his untolerance and animosity towards timber wolves.
I have read too that Amur tigers limit the number of wolves in the Far East. In Mammals of the Soviet Union it's claimed that wolves would often attempt to kill several animals during a hunt, and if that is the case that would exacerbate the friction between competitors for a limited source of food, but don't know how that info has hold up to this day.
07-31-2018, 01:20 AM( This post was last modified: 07-31-2018, 01:47 AM by Pckts )
Sanjeev Siva The rarest of the rarest (Tiger from Telangana).
It is not easy to spot a tiger in the Telugu states of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, despite having the largest tiger reserve of India - Nagarjunasagar Srisailam TR. (There are two other tiger reserves in Telangana - Amrabad and Kawal.) This is partly due to Naxal problem that tourism was never developed and also the terrain. Tigers are worshipped as Gods in NSTR area and are welcome by most village communities in North Telanagana which also serves as the terminal migration point for the overflowing population of tigers from Tadoba - Yavatmal - Tipeshwar ranges. That said and done, a very few tourists visit these parks and obviously the tiger sightings are low, despite a good tiger movement. A couple of months ago, volunteers/members of HyTiCos Santosh and Naveen were returning along the Farhabad route (tourism zone) of Amrabad Tiger Reserve when they spotted a female sitting in the bushes. She was shy and was reluctant to make a public appearance. Photographed is the same tigress christened Farha, and probably the first photograph (outside Trap Cameras) of a free ranging/wild tiger from Telangana state. We are only hopeful that tiger population flourishes and we could get to see more of their tribe from Telangana. The govt. should also invest in relocation of surplus tigers from other states to reserves that welcome tigers than to politically unstable areas (we have seen a few days ago, the problems at Satkosia TR relating to trans-location of MV2 & Sundari). Hopefully the PCCF of Telangana, Mr. P. K. Jha, APCCF, Mr. Munindra and the hon'ble Minister for Forest & Environment, Telangana, Mr. Jogu Ramanna could facilitate this positive change, to not only drive tiger tourism but also generate employment for locals. P. C. Santosh & Naveen
(07-25-2018, 09:18 AM)peter Wrote: In the heavyweight division, large male bears may have the edge.
Probably not only big male bears but any adult male brown bear. If the adult male tiger Matkasur weighting 200-220 kg from the famous video didn't succeed to overwhelm a smallish female Sloth bear weighting only 90-100 kg (that's the average mass of the female) and actually lost the battle how come a tiger can be stronger than adult male Ussuri brown bear with average weight of 270 kg... ?. That's unthinkable.
Its time for us - tiger lovers and lion lovers to open our eyes in the front of the truth and admit that the brown bear is way stronger than any cat. Sadly.
Nevertheless the obligatory predators as the big cats somehow are much more charismatic and excite human imagination much more than the omnivorus animals.
HOW TO GET TO A CONCLUSION ON MALE TIGERS AND BEARS - A
Over the years, I found quite a bit of good information on interactions between male tigers and male brown bears in the Russian Far East. In spite of that, I never got to a conclusion that would cover everything I read.
In this first post, size and individual variation will be discussed.
a - Size and individual variation
a1 - Tiger
There is recent information on the size of Amur tigers (referring to the WCS-tables published just over a decade ago), but the samples are smallish and, to a degree, unreliable because 'problem animals' and 3-year old tigers were included. A bit strange, as every biologist knows that the differences between age groups in big cats often are pronounced, especially in males.
Another problem is that most historical records are considered as unreliable. In spite of that, those involved in an evaluation of historical records published about a decade ago, concluded that male Amur tigers in the recent past (before 1970 or thereabout) were about 10-15% heavier than today.
The information I have on captive male Amur tigers says individual variation is pronounced. In wild Amur tigers, on the other hand, individual variation is more limited than in all other tiger subspecies (...). The smallish samples could be a reason, but it can't be excluded that the recent population bottleneck and deteriorating conditions affected the size of wild Amur tigers after, say, 1970.
As to contradictions on size. Slaght concluded that male Amur tigers averaged 389 pounds, whereas Miquelle said they averaged 430. Goodrich, when questioned by Guate, said Amur tigers have always been overrated, but Krechmar, on a Russian forum, said he had seen prints of large individuals.
So where does that leave us? For now, I use 270 pounds for adult females and 420 for adult males, but it could be that the real averages are different. I'm not sure about the average of captive females, but captive adult males are about 470-490 pounds. I have two reliable reports about (non-obese) females exceeding 440 pounds.
When comparing measurements, weights and photographs of wild Amur tigers with those of captive Amur tigers (males), three things stand out:
- captive male Amur tigers nearly always are longer and taller than wild male Amur tigers;
- captive male Amur tigers show much more individual variation than wild male Amur tigers, and
- wild male Amur tigers (seem to) have, relatively, larger skulls.
This regarding length and weight.
In the skull department, things are not much different. As a result of the lack of reliable information, V. Mazak's averages (published in the third edition of his book 'Der Tiger' in 1983) can still be found in many publications.
In the scan below, you'll find measurements of (wild and captive) male Amur tiger skulls in the table on the far right. Notice that the sample size is limited. Same, by the way, for Panthera tigris virgata:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The longest skull V. Mazak saw belonged to a wild male Amur tiger shot in northeastern China. The greatest total length of that skull was 383 mm. Not so long ago, however, poster Betty posted a (scan of a) photograph of a skull of a 4-year old captive male Amur tiger with a greatest length of at least 420 mm. (...).
Here's the owner of the skull. At 4 years of age, he was 336,5 cm. in total length (head and body 240 cm. and tail 96,5 cm.). Tigress 'Hanya' also is a large animal:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a photograph of his skull:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The tiger, from Howlett (UK), was just 4 years of age when he was shot. He still had some growing to do, that is. Based on the scale in the photograph, the greatest total length of the skull was about 431 mm. For zygomatic width and rostrum width, I got to 284 mm. and about 122 mm. respectively.
Warsaw has serious doubts about measurements based on skull photographs with scales. I understand, but one has to distinguish between photographs taken by amateurs and photographs taken by professionals. The photographs in the article about the Koln zoo tiger were taken by a professional. This means that the measurements I found using the scale in the photograph should be quite close to the real measurements.
In order to illustrate his point on photographs, scales and measurements, Warsaw added two photographs of skulls of (wild?) young adult male bears (Ursus arctos lasiotus). In the first photograph, using the scale, the greatest total skull length seems to be close to 450 mm. In reality, it was 415 mm. In the second photograph, using the scale in the photograph, the greatest total skull length seems to be close to 465 mm. In reality, it was 430 mm.:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Using the scale in the photograph, the tiger skull has a greatest total length of 431 mm. (estimated). In this respect, it roughly compared to the two bear skulls above. The information on the bear skulls (referring to the difference between the optical illusion created by the photograph and the real length) suggest that about 35 mm. has to be deducted from an estimate based on the scale.
However. The photographs of the bear skulls, most probably, were not taken by a pro. The photograph of the tiger skull was. For this reason, the difference between illusion and reality will be more limited. A few days after the photograph was posted, Betty posted another photograph of a male Amur tiger skull. That photograph also has a scale:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I used the scale to estimate to greatest total length, the zygomatic width and the rostrum width. The results were not very different from the real measurements (the skull was measured). Poster Betty got to a similar conclusion. As the photograph of the skull of the male Amur tiger from the Koln zoo compares to the photograph of the old male Amur tiger from the Hamamatsu zoo (both protographs were taken by professionals), it is likely they also compare in the department of estimates based on the scale in the photograph. I'm not saying the greatest total length of the Koln zoo tiger really is 431 mm., but the difference between the estimate and the real length most probably is limited. Less than 35 mm., to be more specific.
When comparing the skull of the young adult captive male Amur tiger from the Koln zoo with those of the two male brown bears (also young adults), a few things stand out:
- the 'snout' in the bear skulls is much longer;
- the tiger skull is wider as well as more robust at the arches;
- the rostrum of the tiger is wider and more robust;
- the sagittal crest of the tiger is larger and more robust, and
- the os frontalis in both bear skulls is wider and more robust.
The teeth of the captive male Amur tiger are not seen in the photograph above, but the article has another photograph showing the teeth: they are very large. In the teeth department, male brown bears do not compare to male Amur tigers.
The anterior part of the captive male Amur tiger skull seems more robust and heavier. In both bear skulls, on the other hand, the posterior part of the skull seems more robust.
a2 - Brown bear
In Amur brown bears (Ursus arctos lasiotus), the situation (datawise) isn't very different. Based on what was published, most assume that adult male bears, about as long as male Amur tigers (195-196 cm. in head and body measured 'over curves'), average about 580 pounds (Kucherenko). The average of females was impressive as well, but it later was decreased to 310-330 pounds by a poster with access to good information.
I only have one weight of a large captive male from the San Diego zoo. Male 'Blackie' was 396 kg. (874 pounds):
*This image is copyright of its original author
There is a bit more on individual variation. An average female could be 320 pounds, but females twice that weight have been shot in northeastern China more than once. It's quite likely that males are not much different in this respect. This means that the heaviest most probably exceed 1 000 pounds.
According to G. Baryshnikov, the greatest total skull length of an average male bear in that part of Russia is about 407-408 mm. (zygomatic width just over 240 mm.), but Wiki says it's just over 380 mm. (zygomatic width about 230 mm.). Here's the Baryshnikov table:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Individual variation in Amur brown bears is pronounced. In one direction? No, both ways.
Here's a table posted by Warsaw a long time ago. It has information on the size of adult male brown bears in northeastern Siberia. I know they're different from Ursus arctos lasiotus (a bit longer, but not as heavy), but it shows the significant amount of individual variation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a table that has weights of two male brown bears of the lasiotus type. Not even close to 580 pounds, but one of the two was a young adult male. Notice that both were weighed in late autumn, when brown bears peak:
*This image is copyright of its original author
a3 - Conclusions
Male Amur tigers average 420 pounds and 195 cm. in head and body length (measured 'over curves'). Male brown bears, with a similar head and body length, average 580 pounds. Solid info? I don't know. Krechmar said there isn't much to choose between most males of both species. The department of exceptional individuals, however, only has bears.
Is an average male Amur tiger inferior to an average male brown bear of the lasiotus type? In head and body length, male tigers and male brown bears are about similar. Bears, however, are taller and more robust (heavier). Here's a drawing of the skeleton of a brown bear of the lasiotus type:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a drawing of the skeleton of an Amur tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a photograph of the skeleton of a (captive) 600-pound male Amur tiger (Taxidermy.Net Forum):
*This image is copyright of its original author
I've seen skeletons of both species next to each other. There's no question that skeletons of male brown bears are more robust than those of adult male Amur tigers. In the skull department, things are a bit different. Bears have a slightly longer and heavier skull, but skulls of male Amur tigers are not much shorter. They also have wider arches and larger canines.
All in all, I'd say the differences between male tigers and male brown bears in the Russian Far East are quite limited. It also depends on the season. Bears are taller as well as significantly heavier in summer and autumn, but they lose up to 30% of their weight during hibernation. In early spring, they most probably are not heavier than an average male tiger.
The strange thing is that tigers hunt bears in summer and autumn, when brown bears, weightwise, are at their peak. Fights between male tigers and male brown bears, however, seem to occur most often in winter and early spring. Non-hibernating brown bears ('Shatuns') often are desperate animals, prepared to attack anything. In early spring, most male bears are not much heavier than an average-sized male tiger.
a4 - Predation on male brown bears - speculative remarks
Are adult male brown bears in the Russian Far East out of the predatory reach of adult male Amur tigers? Weightwise, the answer is no. Some male brown bears are well below average. Also remember that male bears can lose up to 30% of their weight during hibernation. If they really average about 580 pounds in fall (assumption) and lose 30% in winter, the conclusion is that an average male bear is not heavier than an average male tiger in early spring.
Does that mean that experienced male tigers are able to take an average male brown bear in spring or summer? Biologists never found any proof, but weightwise it can't be excluded.
In my opinion, one has to distinguish between a hunt and a fight. Tigers prefer bears they can quickly kill with a bite to the skull. In a mail to a poster of AVA, Linda Kerley said that adult brown bears up to the size of the largest female are hunted. Two large females killed by male tigers were estimated at 150-200 kg. (331-442 pounds).
My guess is that male brown bears are not, or only very seldom, hunted. Adult male brown bears are known for their disposition. In this respect, they definitely compare to male Amur tigers. This, however, doesn't mean that Amur tigers will never try.
Adult male tigers have been killed by other male tigers in the Russian Far East. They can kill each other in a fight, but also ambush each other at times. Male tiger 'Uporny' was ambushed and killed by another male tiger in mid-winter (February). There were no signs of a fight. If a male tiger can kill another male tiger in an ambush, it's likely that a male bear similar in size to tiger 'Uporny' also can be ambushed.
There is a difference between a hunt and a fight. According to those interviewed by Vaillant, male Amur tigers are prepared to fight a bear of similar size. If the tiger is victorious, however, the bear isn't always eaten. A hunt is about food. A fight is about something else. According to Russian biologists, a male brown bear victorious in a fight with a male Amur tiger always consumes his opponent.
Wild Amur tigers seem to be quite uniform in size. In wild male brown bears, however, individual variation is pronounced. Some male bears are well below average, whereas others are very large. Based on what I saw and heard from trainers, I'd say that size often affects the outcome of interactions between adult males of different species. My guess is that many contradictions in the department of tigers and bears could be a result of the significant amount of individual variation in male brown bears. Variation is also seen in individuals (as a result of hibernation, nearly all brown bears in the Russian Far East are subject to outspoken fluctuations in weight).
There could be other reasons.
in 2015, 'A comparison of food habits and prey preference of Amur tiger (Panthera tigris altaica, Temminck 1884) at three sites in the Russian Far East' was published. Researchers said that bears constituted
" ... a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period ... " (pp. 12). That conclusion ran counter to previous assertions that " ... the risk of injury was too high for tigers to regurlarly predate bears ... " (pp. 12).
Bearpredationwise, the differences between the three sites were quite striking. One wonders why that is. Here's a few ideas.
- Maybe tigers in the southwestern part of Primorye are a bit larger than those in the north? Manchuria was known for the size of its tigers in the recent past.
- Maybe brown bears in the southwestern part of Primorye are a bit smaller than those in the north?
- Maybe there is a 'bear culture' in the southwestern part of Primorye. If tigers hunt bears that often, chances are tiger cubs learn about bears at an early age.
- Maybe the vegetation in Manchuria and the southwestern part of Primorye is more dense than in the north. If so, the cover would offer tigers more opportunities to hunt bears, especially in summer.
- Maybe the southwestern part of Primorye is a hotspot for female brown bears with cubs in spring and summer?
- Maybe posters (and researchers) are a bit naive on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. In his book published in 1993, V. Jankowski wrote the very large tiger shot in the summer of 1943 near the Sungari river had feasted on a bear of which only the head and part of a leg were found. Jankowski, as Warsaw said, didn't say anything about a fight and the size of the bear in his book. In his letter to V. Mazak, however, he wrote that the tiger had killed a very large old male brown bear a few days before he was shot. Why the difference between the letter and the book?
Maybe he regarded V. Mazak as a layman on bears and tigers in the Russian Far East. Maybe Jankowski, for this reason, decided to add a few details on the bear? I don't know, but his book suggests (the bear doesn't feature in his story on the Sungari river tiger) that Jankowski wasn't surprised at what he found. This should tell you something about his view on tigers and brown bears, as he was very experienced.
As to the size of the bear killed by the Sungari river tiger. According to Baikov, large tigers are able to ambush bears almost their own size. This remark was confirmed by recent observations of male tigers occasionally hunting large female brown bears (estimated at 331-442 pounds). Assuming that male Amur tigers were heavier in this day (460-480 pounds), bears of 400-450 pounds could have been included occasionally. It's likely that an experienced male tiger of exceptional size like the Sungari river tiger could have ambushed a 'large' brown bear. If he really was somewhere between 660 and 770 pounds (after consuming the brown bear), an average-sized male brown bear (580 pounds) would have been within reach. According to Bromlej, tigers are able to ambush a heavier bear.
What I'm saying is nothing can be excluded. This regarding most male tigers and male bears.
Large male bears, however, are another story. According to Pikunov, large male brown bears definitely are not on the menu. All of those in the know (referring to Russian biologists) agreed. Vaillant, much later, confirmed: "... the only force a male (Amur tiger) will typically submit to is a stronger tiger or, occasionally, a large brown bear ... " ('The Tiger', 2010, pp. 140).
The answer to the question as to what a 'large' male is, is difficult to answer. Assuming an average male is 580 pounds (Kucherenko), any bear over 600 pounds is large. A few months ago, photographs of a male bear of at least 800 pounds were published on the internet (see below).
Although one wouldn't fancy the chances of a male tiger in a fight with a 'large' male brown bear, young adult male tigers in particular apparently are not afraid to fight them. I thought it was Rukovsky who found the remains of a male tiger killed by a 'very large' male brown bear. In spite of the difference in size, the fight had been prolonged. The skull indicated that the tiger had been a young adult (about about 4 years of age).
a5 - Brown bear density and vegetation in the Russian Far East
In order to be able to get to an opinion on some of the ideas discussed above, I decided to add a bit of information on brown bear density and vegetation. The info on the bear density is old, but the map on vegetation is quite recent.
- Brown bear distribution and density:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Although the number of bears has diminished in the last decade (as a result of hunting), Primorye still has many thousands of bears. In the southwestern part, the density is lower than in the east and north. The 'bear culture' in the southwestern part, if there is one, is therefore not a result of a high bear density. This means that other factor have to be considered.
- Vegetation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The map says that a large part of the southwest is covered with broad-leaved Far East forest. In the northern and eastern part of Primorye, however, mountain taiga is common. It's very likely that broad-leaved forests offer a professional hunter more cover. My guess is that broad-leaved forests, foodwise, would be more interesting for bears as well.
a6 - Photographs
Brown bear (Ursus arctos lasiotus)
An Amur brown bear is also known as a 'horse bear' because of its long limbs. They're taller at the shoulder than a wild male Amur tiger. Here's an average-sized wild male. Watch the length of the skull and the legs:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a large and very heavy wild male bear. Based on the size of the tigress in the next photograph, he could have been about 800 pounds:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's the tigress he extorted:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Warsaw said the male brown bear was large, but old. He added this picture of a large male bear in his prime:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Amur tiger (Panthera tigris altaica)
Small male killed in a fight with another tiger. Most posters thought it wasn't an adult male:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wild male tiger of about average size. This tiger died as a result of a disease. Just before he perished, he fought and killed a large wild boar:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Large-skulled wild male tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Very large male tiger. In his letter to V. Mazak, V. Jankowski said this tiger, shot near the Sungari river in 1943 in northeastern China, was at least 300 kg. In his book, he said it was 350 kg. (771 pounds). That was after he had consumed a brown bear, of which only the skull and part of a leg remained. Again notice the size of the skull:
*This image is copyright of its original author
In this video could be found 3-4 more photos of that huge bear displacing tigress Rashel ladst year, seconds 24-30, the two animals a cought in bit diferent positions.
(08-01-2018, 09:12 AM)Wolverine Wrote: In this video could be found 3-4 more photos of that huge bear displacing tigress Rashel ladst year, seconds 24-30, the two animals a cought in bit diferent positions.
Many animals follow the same trails. There are many examples of camera traps showing one species passing through the same spot, some just minutes apart. My point is, thought it happens, I don't think you can use those particular photos as an incident of displacement.
08-01-2018, 12:03 PM( This post was last modified: 08-01-2018, 12:07 PM by peter )
(08-01-2018, 09:29 AM)Shir Babr Wrote:
(08-01-2018, 09:12 AM)Wolverine Wrote: In this video could be found 3-4 more photos of that huge bear displacing tigress Rashel ladst year, seconds 24-30, the two animals a cought in bit diferent positions.
Many animals follow the same trails. There are many examples of camera traps showing one species passing through the same spot, some just minutes apart. My point is, thought it happens, I don't think you can use those particular photos as an incident of displacement.
In the Russian Far East, male brown bears follow and displace tigresses with cubs every now and then. When a tigress with cubs loses a lot of kills for a prolonged period of time, she has to hunt much more often. In this period, her cubs can starve. If she isn't able to deliver, the bear could kill the cubs. When the cubs are young, the tigress can't leave.
Extortion sooner or later results in stress. After some months, tigress 'Rashel' complained about the bear. The rangers never heard a sound like that before. It had an effect in that the father of the cubs, tiger 'Ockharik', was seen some days later. In the video which was posted, it seemed like he was reassuring the tigress.
I don't know if he visited the bear after he saw the tigress. I also don't know if the rangers intervened (they contemplated hunting the bear). I do know the bear disappeared not long after the tigress had complained about him.
The photographs don't prove that the bear displaced the tigress, but it was well-known that the bear had been following the tigress for quite some time when they were released. The distance between the tigress and the bear was about half an hour.
I had read about large male bears following and displacing tigresses with cubs, but never seen any photographs. The photographs posted show that the bear is both large and heavy, most probably at least 800 pounds.
Information about tigress 'Rashel' and the bear was posted in this thread in the last months of the previous year.
WOLVERINE
Can you tell us a bit more about the video? Anything known about the fate of the tigress and the bear?
08-01-2018, 07:19 PM( This post was last modified: 08-02-2018, 03:23 AM by Wolverine )
Peter, this video doesn't give any new information concerning that event, I gave the link because the animals are shown in several new positions, obviously the camera trap made more than 2 already known photos. This video decribes in general terms the behavior of the bears from Russian Far East. Its said that when the bears during the autumn can't find enough of their normal food they tern to other protein sources - more especialy meat, they could steal dogs from the villages or appropriate kill from tigers.. The bear in the second half of the video in his hunger for animal proteins has killed tree dogs in a village.
If I find more information for Rashel and that particular gigantic bear I'll post, for now no news. I guess that that gigantic bear is still alive because now is not bear hunting season. As we know Ussuriland during the summer monsoon rains is covered by immensely lush tropical-like vegetation and any observations are almost impossible, during summer due to heat and humidity, moscquitos etc even majority of hunters and forest travelers avoid entering the taiga and prefer to stay home in the towns.
Shir Babr, I think you have first to read prehistory of all this events from last year, the act of displacement is described clearly by the biologist and the director of that forest unit Alexander Batalov, the man who made this photos and installed the camera traps. I only translated the article, no coments from my side, the topic was already widely discused last year.
08-01-2018, 07:43 PM( This post was last modified: 08-01-2018, 07:47 PM by Shir Babr )
(08-01-2018, 07:19 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Shir Babr, I think you have first to read prehistory of all this events from last year, the act of displacement is described clearly by the biologist and the director of that forest unit Alexander Batalov, the man who made this photos and installed the camera traps. I only translated the article, no coments from my side, the topic was already widely discused last year.
Peter, this video doesn't give any new information concerning that event, I gave the link because the animals are shown in several new positions, obviously the camera trap made more than 2 already known photos. This video decribes in general terms the behavior of the bears from Russian Far East. Its said that when the bears during the autumn can't find enough of their normal food they tern to other protein sources - more especialy meat. The bear in the second half of the video in his hunger for animal proteins has killed tree dogs in a village.
If I find more information for Rashel and that particular gigantic bear I'll post, for now no news.
Yes, sorry. Peter explained to me there was a story of cleptoparasitism I was unaware of with those particular individuals reported some months before I found the forum. Though I have read some of the content, I haven't been able to catch up with this very long thread. Seems some brown bears are just able to survive in some parts of their distribution thanks to the presence of predators like the tiger.
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
